guns and whitales
 

hey guys i know this is a topic that is posted often but...here we go again.. you only have one gun for the forseable future to hunt whitetale elk moose bear ect.. i know mine personaly is a custom bolt 338 with a 18 inch barrel stainless finish...hey a guy can dream cant he

henry 45-70 lever action.

aha yes that is a good one also if i were to really think about it that is better than the 338 in some ways imo round nose just kill better i have no sientific name for it but a 45-70 slug hittin a deer.. aint no uber short fat shoulder dissloacating mag can kill a deer better than a 45-70.. the reason i kinda side with the 338 is range course there may be better range and less recoiling rouds for that but oh well..both are GREAT cals

18" barrel with a .338win mag, bold.

What custom action for the 338?

My ONE rifle would be a REAL Marlin 1895 Stainless Guide Gun, .45-70. Own it, love it. Have 2, want 10 more. Pi$$ed beyond compare about what Remington has done to them.

Do you have any idea of the muzzle blast out of a 18 inch barrel in .338???? :)

30-06, problem solved. It will and has handled everything in North America that can be legally hunted and it has also been used on game up to elephant in Africa with a 220 gr solid. While I wouldn't recommend it for heavy dangerous game like elephant, rhino or Cape Buffalo it has been used for game like that.

Plus, the 30-06 is still capable of cleanly killing game at 300+ yards, ammo is easy to find and most people can shoot it well. Those advocating a 45-70 most likely haven't tried to shoot one at 300 yards. It drops like a rock! While a lot of whitetail hunting can be a short range affair, if you hunt them on the plains they can need a long shot and elk are often shot at 200-300 yards. Like it or not, that has to be factored in since the OP specifically mentions both elk and moose.

you know what my deer rifle is a bolt 30-06. and maby that's why I over looked it because I use it so much. but that would be better than 45-70. if you where huntin out west.

I did that with my .30 Gibbs, then I upgraded a few years ago to a .300 Weatherby. If I ever win the lottery and go on an Alaskan Brown Bear hunt, I'd use my .375 RUM. Other than that, my .300 Wby would easily handle anything else in North America.

Not to start a war between the two cartridges in the least, but as a guy that would indeed reach past the .30-06's in my safe for one of my .45-70's, I'll counterpoint a bit on this...

Same can be said for the .45-70.

Same cannot be said for the .45-70. The Gov't gets the nod here. In the Marlin action, the .45-70 can contend with "traditional" African cartridges for energy. I forget which gunwriter it was, but 'roundabouts 10yrs ago, there were TWO Cape Buffalo taken with one shot from a Marlin 1895 .45-70.

While I can't speak for the others that recommended the Gov't, I'll caution you that it's dangerous to make assumptions. Some of us HAVE indeed worked with a .45-70 at long ranges and would still recommend it. I used to play with a Sharps repro, a Marlin 1895Cowboy, and an H&R Buffalo Classic regularly at up to 600yrds as part of a Cowboy Action Shooting competition side match, and practice therefore.

While it isn't 300yrds, I did take this buck at 250yrds with a .45-70. Double lung and heart. This was with a factory load, Hornady 325grn FTX only trucking 1795fps; my handloads with the same bullet can push it up to 2200fps.



30" of drop on that ball from a 100yrd zero, quite a bit to hold over with a 3-9x40 standard Plex reticle, but obviously doable. Not my longest kill with this rifle/load, just the biggest buck I've taken with this rifle for which it was worth keeping a pic in photobucket.

To the bold point in the quote above, and to this snippet focused on long range shots on heavy-body game: Yes, it's a slow round, and it has a lot of drop. But when you throw 300+ grains of copper and lead at something, it's going to hit hard. It may "drop like a rock," but it also "drops GAME like a rock." The Taylor KO Factor for a .45-70 at both 300 and 600yrds is over 60% greater than that of a .30-06 at the muzzle. Relative drop at 300yrds vs. 100yrd zero: 7.3MOA on my .30-06 load, to 17.3MOA on my .45-70 load. Both manageable.

I'm also prone to think that much of the Kansas ground I do my hunting on should qualify as "plains" where 200-300yrd shooting is pretty common. Not necessary to shoot that far in any environment, but it sure increases your odds in these open spaces if you're able to.

Not discounting the .30-06 at all, but do find it a little insulting when someone suggests that a person might recommend the .45-70 over the .30-06 only because they're foolish and/or inexperienced.

Probly something like a winchester 70 or maybe a remmy 700.. yea a 338 win mag in an 18 inch barell is a lil. Stout I like my guns handy.. lol:barmy:

Deer, moose, elk all get the same treatment 270 Weatherby magnum. Love the 45 70 too. Ain't nutten needs a second shot out of either one.

Not really thinking of it being "stout" or "handy", more curious as to how you arrived at a 338win mag with only an 18" tube?

Seems like you'll be giving up quite a bit of velocity and sacrificing a lot of powder to useless muzzle blast, only for the benefit of about 3oz of barrel (2" of .338" bore standard weight barrel) compared to "guide length" .338WM's - typically 20", with 23 and 24" being "standard length".

Can't capitalize on that much case capacity out of an 18" tube, even the 20" Guide Gun's in the WM have quite a bit of blast. Might as well save yourself some powder and run a smaller case, like a .338Federal (.308win based case) or a .338 A Square or even .35 Whelen (both '06 based cases). The Fed and A-square both run roughly the same max pressure as the Win Mag, but have significantly lower powder volumes. The difference being they'll have less flame out front, and about the same velocity out of an 18" tube as the WM. The Fed might run a touch slower, but I'd be surprised to see much difference in an 18" barrel without some fancy reloading footwork between the A-square and the WM in such a short tube.

I went through this same work up about 18mos ago in planning a 16" 3 cartridge switch barrel rig (22cal, 6.5mm-30cal, and 338" all from one receiver). The big 338 bore cases just have too much volume to get used up in short barrels. I know a couple guys that have 14-16" 338Edge and 338AX bolt action pistols, the flames out front are huge, and the velocities are a LONG ways behind rifle loads. Sure, it's cool, and it's straight forward, but there are more logical options. For me, it came down to a choice between a 20" barrel instead of 16" in the .338WM, or a 16" tube in 338-06. (Won't get into discussing the hurdles of magazines/feeding/boltfaces to match it all up).

I'd pick my Savage Bolt-action 7mm-08 using a Leupold Rifleman matte-black 3x9x40mm scope with 140 grain bullets! :D

[QUOTE=Nomercy448;4126354]Not really thinking of it being "stout" or "handy", more curious as to how you arrived at a 338win mag with only an 18" tube?

Seems like you'll be giving up quite a bit of velocity and sacrificing a lot of powder to useless muzzle blast, only for the benefit of about 3oz of barrel (2" of .338" bore standard weight barrel) compared to "guide length" .338WM's - typically 20", with 23 and 24" being "standard length".

Can't capitalize on that much case capacity out of an 18" tube, even the 20" Guide Gun's in the WM have quite a bit of blast. Might as well save yourself some powder and run a smaller case, like a .338Federal (.308win based case) or a .338 A Square or even .35 Whelen (both '06 based cases). The Fed and A-square both run roughly the same max pressure as the Win Mag, but have significantly lower powder volumes. The difference being they'll have less flame out front, and about the same velocity out of an 18" tube as the WM. The Fed might run a touch slower, but I'd be surprised to see much difference in an 18" barrel without some fancy reloading footwork between the A-square and the WM in such a short tube.

I went through this same work up about 18mos ago in planning a 16" 3 cartridge switch barrel rig (22cal, 6.5mm-30cal, and 338" all from one receiver). The big 338 bore cases just have too much volume to get used up in short barrels. I know a couple guys that have 14-16" 338Edge and 338AX bolt action pistols, the flames out front are huge, and the velocities are a LONG ways behind rifle loads. Sure, it's cool, and it's straight forward, but there are more logical options. For me, it came down to a choice between a 20" barrel instead of 16" in the .338WM, or a 16" tube in 338-06. (Won't get into discussing the hurdles of magazines/feeding/boltfaces to match it all up).[/QUOTE

i guess your right i think i will change over to the 338 06 i dont reload and really didint know if the cartridge would actully suffer that much in an 18 inch barrel

7MM Rem Mag

Shoots as flat as a .270 and hits like a .30-06.


I'm good with that !

If you do not reload you may want to rethink the 338-06 and pick a cartridge for which you can actually find ammunition.

[QUOTE=Big Uncle;4126850]If you do not reload you may want to rethink the 338-06 and pick a cartridge for which you can actually find
ammunition.[/QUO

true but i know a guy who reloads so if i don't get into it i could just pay him to reload them for me.i want to reload but the startup cost to do so puts me off

Federal offense if ya do...

The best you can do is buy the supplies for him to reload for you. He can't accept compensation for producing ammunition. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Having someone hand roll them for you would be your best bet for ANY of the 338 rounds, to be honest, but as Big Uncle mentioned, especially so for the 338 A Square ('06).

If you're wanting to play with the big calibers, it really does start paying back to reload for them. You should be able to get into a reloading set up for comfortably under $500 to be WELL equipped. There just aren't that many offerings in bigger cals, and pretty rare to find many of them on the shelf at any given store.

& just HOW is Obammy & his lapdog Holder gonna know? I wouldn't let some trumped up, silly regulation get between my hunting & a bud who reloads! Having an illegal weapon is one thing but paying a trusted bud to reload a box or two ain't nothin to worry about.


Now personally I think a 338WM in a 18" barrel is kinda like pullin 2 spark plugs off the 8cyl in a vette... WHY? If you are wanting a short, quick, hard hitting med bore boltgun then consider a 35 Whelen! The 338WM is a GREAT cartridge but the 18" tube is really just not what that type of cart needs to shine.

Ain't "Obammy's" idea. Been on the books a long, long time.

It breaks down like this:

You need some ammo rolled, you pay your buddy to reload it for you. Seems all well and good...

But YOU didn't commit the federal offense, YOUR BUDDY DID. Now I have some buddies that I'd take a bullet for, if it came to that, but that's not the situation here. In this case, YOU'D walk free, maybe get some ammo confiscated, and YOUR BUDDY would be brought up on federal charges. It's a violation of FFL status, so he might as well be illegally trafficking firearms across state lines, or illegally manufacturing firearms or class III weapons in that case. The manufacturer of the ammo is the one that assumes the liability. He'll be the one that pays the fines or does the time, and he'll be the one that can't ever own a firearm again.

Sure, I'd play with my own SKS to make it slam fire and rattle off a 30rnd mag in 3sec - as you said, who's going to know? But I wouldn't be willing to commit the same crime for a buddy that would be held harmless.

It's simple enough, you buy the supplies, provide it to the reloader, and whatever level of "compensation" you decide upon needs to be bartered, at best.

I've been working that game for over 10yrs. Been through the books by the letter since I didn't want to lose my FFL, lose my guns, or get put in the clink. You can't reload for profit without an ammo manufacturers FFL (which I did not have at the time).

You are absolutely right. To clarify it does not have to be for actual profit, but for a profit motive - including any act that can be interpreted as such. Any form of compensation, cash or otherwise, gives rise to this problem and a mirrored problem with the IRS.

Nobody ever said it was fair.

"& just HOW is Obammy & his lapdog Holder gonna know? I wouldn't let some trumped up, silly regulation get between my hunting & a bud who reloads! Having an illegal weapon is one thing but paying a trusted bud to reload a box or two ain't nothin to worry about."

***That has to rank right up there as one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this or any other hunting website!!!

i suppose thats also a consideration..thanks nomercy i didnt know my buddy would take the hit..am i corect in thinking i could buy him the reloading supplies and have hime reload them for me?? i may have misuderstood

It's a technicality, but yes, you can buy components and have him reload them for you. Especially if you're present and learning/helping. (Just be careful not to be a distraction, of course - a reloading bench should be clutter-free and distraction-free for safety). I've reloaded for other guys in this way for over a decade now.

You can also technically "rent reloading equipment" from your buddy if he'd give you access to reload your own ammo. But personally, I don't want anybody touching my reloading bench but me. I don't even let my wife run the press if I'm not watching over her (she's only been at it for 2yrs, but she's a very capable and scrutinizing reloader).

Another option for you just occurred to me, that you might consider.

After you have your load development done and you have your selected load in hand, one huge component of the time spent reloading is case preparation. The tools for case prep are quite inexpensive. You could buy the case prep tools, do the prep work yourself, then buy the components and have your buddy do the actual reloading for you. That would limit how much time he actually has to spend pressing your rounds (especially if he has a properly set up turret or progressive press). Saves you the expense of buying all of the reloading kit, saves him the time of handling all of your brass.

To do your case prep, you'd need:

Lee hand press - $50
Lee Universal decapping die - $12
Case tumbler or ultrasonic cleaner - $55-110 for entry level
Media or cleaning solution - miniscule cost per batch of brass cleaned
Lee COAL gauges - $10 or less
Lee Cutter and lock-stud - $10 or less
Lee Chamfer tool - $4
Combo neck brush - $10
Primer pocket cleaner - $10

That investment of $160-200 would let you do everything you'd need to do to get your brass ready to hand him clean, deprimed brass, bullets, primers, and powder, and let him start cranking out rounds straight away.

my dad used to have an old 35 wheelin he bought for elk huntin in colorado. he kept it for a few years after that to use as his whitetail gun. and to keep from ruinin the meat he just shot them in the neck. he got to where he could shoot them in the neck at 200-300 yds. he still swears to this day that, that old 35 wheelin was the best gun he ever owned.

NoMercy I didn't say they should go into business in their living room and start loading TRUCKLOADS of ammo for resale. I simply stated that paying a bud a couple few extra $$$ for him supplying a non-handloader a box or two of ammo is NOTHING to worry about! I know dang well Obammy and Holder didn't write the laws, but it's THEM 2 that are hellbent on nabbing gunowners right now!

Living in fear of the a##clowns in Washington is the first step to this country falling... :s14:

Moving right along, back to the topic at hand.

I'd be torn between two calibers. 45/70 or 375H&H. I have a pair of 1895's, one is a Marlin 1895SS, and the other is an remlin 1895GS. I'd almost go with the 1895SS between the two levers. The 375 is a tack driver, pleasant shooting, and can easily take on anything on this continent, and overseas for that matter. '06 trajectory to boot. I roll my own ammo, so not a big issue there either.

Or maybe the first step in the country's falling is when ignorant folks intentionally disobey EXISTING LAWS, giving the anti-gunowner administration RIGHTFUL POWER to take their guns?

With gun-rights dwindling, and riding on the edge of a cliff as it is, why in the world would you encourage someone to break federal laws? Breaking the law is still breaking the law, regardless of whether you're selling dimebags or kilos, and the opportunity for the anti-gun left to gain momentum because someone didn't think they'd get caught for small change stuff is real. Nobody would know if I stopped on the back road and shot that huge buck I saw last week, nobody would know if I snuck a couple candybars out of Walmart in my pocket, nobody would know if I didn't count cash income on my taxes, nobody would know if I took my neighbors chainsaw out of his shop when he forgot to close his garage when he left for work one day, nobody would know if I drove 3 miles home after about 3 too many beers, nobody would know if I just drove off after backing into a car outside the post office... But the fact that nobody would know doesn't make any of it right or make any of it legal. You're willingly becoming part of the problem.

Disrespect for the law is what makes even honest lawmakers with GOOD INTENTIONS tighten their grip and take away more and more rights. Right-minded lawmakers are on the law-abiding gun owners side. When you're not a law-abiding gun owner, nobody is on your side.

Would you be willing to elaborate on the differences you can see between your REAL Marlin and your Remlin?

I have two GS's, among a few other REAL Marlins, and I'm in dire want of a new 1895 Cowboy, and another 1895 GS.

I've seen two Remlin 1895 GS's that turned me off big time, poorly fit stocks, ill-fit bolt, lots of machine marks in the action. I've also HEARD that these early hiccups have been rectified and that the newer runs are of better quality.

But, I'm still nervous about trusting the Remlins, especially considering the current prices are more than twice what I paid for any of my REAL Marlins between 5 and 20yrs ago.

Well, the remlin guide gun actually feeds better than the new haven gun did. I had issues out of the box with the marlin with the extractor. Probably need to just replace it with a new one. Had to bend it to feed over the lip of the 45/70. The things I like about the remlin guide gun, short, and light. Things I didn't like about it, is the increased recoil vs the 22" gun, and how the lever dug into my hand under recoil. Granted those were some warm loads, lol. Fitment of the remlin seems decent enough. Stock on this stainless model, almost looks naked. Doesn't look bad against stainless, maybe that was the intent.

I've got 3 Marlin lever guns. One a 1968 336RC 35Rem inherited from my grandfather. It's FLAWLESS and I enjoy using it in my swamp when the weathers nice!

The other two are "Remlins" bought in 2011. When my oldest son turned 16 I offered to buy him a larger deer rifle than his 243 Wby. He wanted a SS 45-70. We happened across a brand new 1895 STBL that has been FLAWLESS out of the box! The beautiful stainless, the great walnut stocks, the Pachmayer pad.

My boy made me jealous with that big thumper so it wasn't long until I had to have my own. I decided on a brand new1895G 45-70 my local Gander Mtn had on their rack for over a year. It shot GREAT out of the box but didn't feed for crap! I had to pull the ejector clip out and polish it, the loading ramp as well and then I oiled the entire action and cycled it 1000X. (After a season of use I had to likewise pull the plastic cap off the magazine spring and sand on it as it was beginning to hang. It somehow got a little out of round.) The gun shoots lights out and the 300X Buffalo Bore's run through it like crap thru a goose! :s2:

I have over 2 dozen big game rifles, mostly bolts BUT when I walk off down into my west TN swamp there's just something that "Feels right" about doing so with a med/big bore Marlin levergun! :cool2: I hate Remington has done what it did with Marlin but I understand with the new plant in the Carolina's and their impending HQ move from NY to AL maybe there's hope for Big Green afterall. I REALLY hope the entire operation gets bought away from the Wall St. firm that has owned it since what the 90s now? THEYVE been the reason the entire ships been dragging bottom for quite some time now. I know "bidne$$ is bidne$$" and $$$ is the goal, but I sure would like to see Remington owned and run once again by GUN FOLKS!!! (And they've bought ALOT of names over the last few years haven't they? Marlin, T/C, H&R, Bushmaster to name a few)