Bolt extractor info needed
12-20-2011, 04:51 PM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Bolt extractor info needed
Can someone tell me the difference between the different types of extractor's for bolt actions? Looking at a couple rifles and one has a 2 claw extractor, one has a three claw extractor and one has a 6 claw extractor.
Why the variations in the number of claws? Google finds me nothing on any types of pro's and con's for each. I am looking for more than the obvious of one has 2 claws, one has 3 claws and one has 6 claws
Why the variations in the number of claws? Google finds me nothing on any types of pro's and con's for each. I am looking for more than the obvious of one has 2 claws, one has 3 claws and one has 6 claws
12-21-2011, 08:23 AM
#2
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Found my answer I think, Quoting from another person on another forum:
"the more lugs, the less of an angle you have to turn the bolt to open it. For example Weatherby rifles have six or nine lugs and the bolt is turned 54° to open. Two lug rifles have to be turned 90° to open. "
That sound right?
"the more lugs, the less of an angle you have to turn the bolt to open it. For example Weatherby rifles have six or nine lugs and the bolt is turned 54° to open. Two lug rifles have to be turned 90° to open. "
That sound right?
12-21-2011, 02:52 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: west central wi USA
Posts: 2,242
The lugs of a bolt lock the bolt into the receiver. A bolt gun usually has a claw extractor or not. Bolt rifles that are "Control Round Feed" have a wide extractor claw that the cartridge rim slides under as the round is fed from the magazine. I've never heard of a bolt action that has multiple extractor claws.
12-21-2011, 03:50 PM
#4
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
my main issue was that my terminology was wrong. what I thought was the bolt extractor claw was in fact the bolt lug. bolts typically have 2, 3, 6, and 9 lugs. These bolt lugs are for locking the bolt into the gun so that when you fire it, the bolt doesn't fly out and smack you in the face. the amount of lugs on the bolt control how far the bolt rotates.
Last edited by Okie76; 12-21-2011 at 03:56 PM.
12-21-2011, 08:27 PM
#5
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5
okie, that's part right, part incomplete.
in modern semi- or fully automatic weapons, the lugs are not used to lock the bolt, but to secure it in position until the gas pressure has dropped to a safe level to cycle. for instance, the rotatng bolt on the AR pattern, which uses multiple lugs to provide a temporary lock on the bolt carrier group until the gas pressure has dropped enough to unlock and rotate the bolt inside the cam and begin the extraction process.
in bolt actions, more lugs also don't mean less angle on bolt cycling, nor do they mean safer actions. if a round is waaaaaaaaaaaay overpressure, i'm not terribly worried about the bolt coming out of the raceway - there are the bolt lugs but there are also bolt handles as a sort of "last ditch" safety, as well as the gas vents machined in the bolts. i'd be more worried about the chamber area. (google "guns kaboom" and go to images. yikes.) in bolt guns, the lugs also provide a positive engagement with the chamber. a lock, of sorts, but more of a seal.
is your question more about the pros and cons of the number of lugs, or perhaps the types? as in pros and cons of rotating vs non-rotating lugs?
getting to the extractor question, the different types more often than not relate to whether the round slides underneath the extractor claw, or if the claw has to pop over the lip of the cartridge. sliding is generally better and more desirable.
in modern semi- or fully automatic weapons, the lugs are not used to lock the bolt, but to secure it in position until the gas pressure has dropped to a safe level to cycle. for instance, the rotatng bolt on the AR pattern, which uses multiple lugs to provide a temporary lock on the bolt carrier group until the gas pressure has dropped enough to unlock and rotate the bolt inside the cam and begin the extraction process.
in bolt actions, more lugs also don't mean less angle on bolt cycling, nor do they mean safer actions. if a round is waaaaaaaaaaaay overpressure, i'm not terribly worried about the bolt coming out of the raceway - there are the bolt lugs but there are also bolt handles as a sort of "last ditch" safety, as well as the gas vents machined in the bolts. i'd be more worried about the chamber area. (google "guns kaboom" and go to images. yikes.) in bolt guns, the lugs also provide a positive engagement with the chamber. a lock, of sorts, but more of a seal.
is your question more about the pros and cons of the number of lugs, or perhaps the types? as in pros and cons of rotating vs non-rotating lugs?
getting to the extractor question, the different types more often than not relate to whether the round slides underneath the extractor claw, or if the claw has to pop over the lip of the cartridge. sliding is generally better and more desirable.
12-22-2011, 04:47 AM
#6
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Pro's and Con's of the number of lugs. If there is more to it than just the degree of the bolts rotation, then I am all ears?
12-23-2011, 09:19 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
Comparing number of locking lugs is a pretty open ended debate.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt is more secure in the action. This isn't necessarily true, because the more lugs you have, the smaller EACH lug is. The relative size of the lugs is what will contribute most to the security of the bolthead in the receiver. Most two lug boltheads have HUGE lugs, whereas 6 and 9 lug bolthead lugs are rather thin.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt will be positioned more "squarely" in the action, with better consistency. The arguement here is that a two legged table is wobbly, but a 3 legged stool, or a 6 or 9 legged table is more stable. While that may be true for tables, again, 2 bolt lugs have HUGE lugs, so their relative bearing surface is very high. It's very common that 2 lug bolts actually have higher bearing surface than 3 lug bolts. A single lug from a 2 lug bolt covers almost the same degrees of arc (same percentage of the circumference) as 3 lugs of a 9 lug. Additionally, if the machining of all of the receiver lug channels and all of the lugs don't match up properly, the boltface will not actually be square in any way, regardless of whether it's a 2 lug or a 200 lug. However, it's easier to machine a 2 lug than a 9 lug.
Some guys will say that 90degree vs 54deg rotation actually means anything. Personally, I don't see it? Relative to the entire cycle time, opening and closing the bolt doesn't take very long, it's the bolt travel that takes time. If I were needing to fire a bolt gun so fast that I was trying to shave time off of opening and closing the bolt, I believe I'd simply switch over to a semiauto. Personally, the additional rotation, in my opinion, means I get more leverage to "wedge" the lugs into the receiver. Having a tightly fit bolthead is important to me, so when I get to FEEL it engaging and "squeezing" into the lug channels, I feel like my bolthead is doing it's job. Yes, semiautos need higher numbers of lugs to ensure they open quickly, but personally, I don't see much advantage in a bolt gun as far as bolt rotation.
Ultimately, all you need to do is look at who's making what and you'll have your answer. 2 lug actions dominate the market. Savage rifles are some of the most accurate actions out there, and they utilize a 2 lug bolt in both their production actions, as well as their precision custom actions. The tried and true Remington 700's are 2 lug. Lawton custom BR actions use 2 lugs, Bat uses 2 and 3 lug bolts, RPA customs use 4, Stiller uses 2, Stolle uses 2... Frankly, it's hard to argue with the accuracy out of these actions, so if more lugs were better, these would be the guys doing it, and they AREN'T, so I don't have any reason to believe "more is better" in this case.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt is more secure in the action. This isn't necessarily true, because the more lugs you have, the smaller EACH lug is. The relative size of the lugs is what will contribute most to the security of the bolthead in the receiver. Most two lug boltheads have HUGE lugs, whereas 6 and 9 lug bolthead lugs are rather thin.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt will be positioned more "squarely" in the action, with better consistency. The arguement here is that a two legged table is wobbly, but a 3 legged stool, or a 6 or 9 legged table is more stable. While that may be true for tables, again, 2 bolt lugs have HUGE lugs, so their relative bearing surface is very high. It's very common that 2 lug bolts actually have higher bearing surface than 3 lug bolts. A single lug from a 2 lug bolt covers almost the same degrees of arc (same percentage of the circumference) as 3 lugs of a 9 lug. Additionally, if the machining of all of the receiver lug channels and all of the lugs don't match up properly, the boltface will not actually be square in any way, regardless of whether it's a 2 lug or a 200 lug. However, it's easier to machine a 2 lug than a 9 lug.
Some guys will say that 90degree vs 54deg rotation actually means anything. Personally, I don't see it? Relative to the entire cycle time, opening and closing the bolt doesn't take very long, it's the bolt travel that takes time. If I were needing to fire a bolt gun so fast that I was trying to shave time off of opening and closing the bolt, I believe I'd simply switch over to a semiauto. Personally, the additional rotation, in my opinion, means I get more leverage to "wedge" the lugs into the receiver. Having a tightly fit bolthead is important to me, so when I get to FEEL it engaging and "squeezing" into the lug channels, I feel like my bolthead is doing it's job. Yes, semiautos need higher numbers of lugs to ensure they open quickly, but personally, I don't see much advantage in a bolt gun as far as bolt rotation.
Ultimately, all you need to do is look at who's making what and you'll have your answer. 2 lug actions dominate the market. Savage rifles are some of the most accurate actions out there, and they utilize a 2 lug bolt in both their production actions, as well as their precision custom actions. The tried and true Remington 700's are 2 lug. Lawton custom BR actions use 2 lugs, Bat uses 2 and 3 lug bolts, RPA customs use 4, Stiller uses 2, Stolle uses 2... Frankly, it's hard to argue with the accuracy out of these actions, so if more lugs were better, these would be the guys doing it, and they AREN'T, so I don't have any reason to believe "more is better" in this case.
12-25-2011, 11:38 AM
#8
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Comparing number of locking lugs is a pretty open ended debate.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt is more secure in the action. This isn't necessarily true, because the more lugs you have, the smaller EACH lug is. The relative size of the lugs is what will contribute most to the security of the bolthead in the receiver. Most two lug boltheads have HUGE lugs, whereas 6 and 9 lug bolthead lugs are rather thin.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt will be positioned more "squarely" in the action, with better consistency. The arguement here is that a two legged table is wobbly, but a 3 legged stool, or a 6 or 9 legged table is more stable. While that may be true for tables, again, 2 bolt lugs have HUGE lugs, so their relative bearing surface is very high. It's very common that 2 lug bolts actually have higher bearing surface than 3 lug bolts. A single lug from a 2 lug bolt covers almost the same degrees of arc (same percentage of the circumference) as 3 lugs of a 9 lug. Additionally, if the machining of all of the receiver lug channels and all of the lugs don't match up properly, the boltface will not actually be square in any way, regardless of whether it's a 2 lug or a 200 lug. However, it's easier to machine a 2 lug than a 9 lug.
Some guys will say that 90degree vs 54deg rotation actually means anything. Personally, I don't see it? Relative to the entire cycle time, opening and closing the bolt doesn't take very long, it's the bolt travel that takes time. If I were needing to fire a bolt gun so fast that I was trying to shave time off of opening and closing the bolt, I believe I'd simply switch over to a semiauto. Personally, the additional rotation, in my opinion, means I get more leverage to "wedge" the lugs into the receiver. Having a tightly fit bolthead is important to me, so when I get to FEEL it engaging and "squeezing" into the lug channels, I feel like my bolthead is doing it's job. Yes, semiautos need higher numbers of lugs to ensure they open quickly, but personally, I don't see much advantage in a bolt gun as far as bolt rotation.
Ultimately, all you need to do is look at who's making what and you'll have your answer. 2 lug actions dominate the market. Savage rifles are some of the most accurate actions out there, and they utilize a 2 lug bolt in both their production actions, as well as their precision custom actions. The tried and true Remington 700's are 2 lug. Lawton custom BR actions use 2 lugs, Bat uses 2 and 3 lug bolts, RPA customs use 4, Stiller uses 2, Stolle uses 2... Frankly, it's hard to argue with the accuracy out of these actions, so if more lugs were better, these would be the guys doing it, and they AREN'T, so I don't have any reason to believe "more is better" in this case.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt is more secure in the action. This isn't necessarily true, because the more lugs you have, the smaller EACH lug is. The relative size of the lugs is what will contribute most to the security of the bolthead in the receiver. Most two lug boltheads have HUGE lugs, whereas 6 and 9 lug bolthead lugs are rather thin.
Some guys will say that more lugs mean the bolt will be positioned more "squarely" in the action, with better consistency. The arguement here is that a two legged table is wobbly, but a 3 legged stool, or a 6 or 9 legged table is more stable. While that may be true for tables, again, 2 bolt lugs have HUGE lugs, so their relative bearing surface is very high. It's very common that 2 lug bolts actually have higher bearing surface than 3 lug bolts. A single lug from a 2 lug bolt covers almost the same degrees of arc (same percentage of the circumference) as 3 lugs of a 9 lug. Additionally, if the machining of all of the receiver lug channels and all of the lugs don't match up properly, the boltface will not actually be square in any way, regardless of whether it's a 2 lug or a 200 lug. However, it's easier to machine a 2 lug than a 9 lug.
Some guys will say that 90degree vs 54deg rotation actually means anything. Personally, I don't see it? Relative to the entire cycle time, opening and closing the bolt doesn't take very long, it's the bolt travel that takes time. If I were needing to fire a bolt gun so fast that I was trying to shave time off of opening and closing the bolt, I believe I'd simply switch over to a semiauto. Personally, the additional rotation, in my opinion, means I get more leverage to "wedge" the lugs into the receiver. Having a tightly fit bolthead is important to me, so when I get to FEEL it engaging and "squeezing" into the lug channels, I feel like my bolthead is doing it's job. Yes, semiautos need higher numbers of lugs to ensure they open quickly, but personally, I don't see much advantage in a bolt gun as far as bolt rotation.
Ultimately, all you need to do is look at who's making what and you'll have your answer. 2 lug actions dominate the market. Savage rifles are some of the most accurate actions out there, and they utilize a 2 lug bolt in both their production actions, as well as their precision custom actions. The tried and true Remington 700's are 2 lug. Lawton custom BR actions use 2 lugs, Bat uses 2 and 3 lug bolts, RPA customs use 4, Stiller uses 2, Stolle uses 2... Frankly, it's hard to argue with the accuracy out of these actions, so if more lugs were better, these would be the guys doing it, and they AREN'T, so I don't have any reason to believe "more is better" in this case.
Savage 11/11 LRH
Tika T3 Super Varmint
Weatherby Vanguard Series 2 (RC)
If I go with a 25-06 I can get any of the three. However, if I go with the 300WSM I can only get the Savage or Tika and must get the Weatherby in a 300wbymag or 338winmag. I have no idea about the ballistics of a 300wbymag or 338winmag (need to research that, not on Christmas day when I am posting this).
This gun will be used primarily for long range target shooting and once a year for hunting season (Whitetails and Muley's). A 25-06 will kill both of those with no problems I know. A 300xxx however i have never shot a whitetail or muley with, so I don't know if it's severe overkill or how much damage it will do.
Some advice on the caliber's I have mentioned above and any first hand knowledge of these specific models of firearms would be fantastic.
PS. Did some light reading and found that the 6.5x284 beats out the 25-06 and the 300wsm in terms of range. Less wind drift than the 25 but more than the 300. Same recoil as the 25 and significantly less than the 300. bullet weights are more than the 25 and less than the 300. Sounds like a good round. Anyone have experience with it and can comment on it would be great as well.
Last edited by Okie76; 12-25-2011 at 09:53 PM. Reason: added PS
12-26-2011, 11:44 AM
#10
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Slippery Rock, Pa.
Posts: 393
The 25.06 is the most popular cartridge for midwest hunting, as you know. But 6.5x284 is better but comes at a cost of barrel life, from what guys that shoot competition say it's around 1k rounds, and if they do a 1 or 2 turn set back they get another 500rds, now if it were strickly a hunting rifle it wouldn't matter but if your going to use it to shoot comp, it's something to consider.
A 7mm wsm is another round you may want to think about it's very popular and seems to get a little better barrel life and better bc then the 30 cal's.
If your going to use your comp rifle to hunt then you really should get a ballistic program to see what cartridge performs best with certain bullets and weights plus it will give you drop rates and kinetic energy data at whatever distances you input.
As far as bullets out of the short mag's, use a quality bullet like you would for 300 win. My dad and i have been using barnes bullets out of our 300 rsaum, with little to no meat damage.
A 7mm wsm is another round you may want to think about it's very popular and seems to get a little better barrel life and better bc then the 30 cal's.
If your going to use your comp rifle to hunt then you really should get a ballistic program to see what cartridge performs best with certain bullets and weights plus it will give you drop rates and kinetic energy data at whatever distances you input.
As far as bullets out of the short mag's, use a quality bullet like you would for 300 win. My dad and i have been using barnes bullets out of our 300 rsaum, with little to no meat damage.
