Some things I've learned the hard/expensive way....
 

It's funny how this hobby/passion of mine teaches me lessons. Unfortunately, it's usually the hard/expensive way! LOL!

1. Caliber.... For most of the hunting the average Joe will be doing, the caliber that you take a deer or hog with does NOT have to say "MAGNUM" after it. It amazes me how the advertising that companies do pushes us to think that even though the XYZ caliber may be....ok....for deer hunting, the new .300 Wiz Bang Boomerslammer would be SO much better for shooting past 500 yards. (No offense meant Ridge Runner...you're most definitly NOT an average Joe!) I most certainly DO think magnums have their place in hunting big boned critters like elk and larger or for particular LONG range deer hunting situations, but I wounder how many animals have been wounded from a weekend warrior who shoots a couple times a year with his Boomerslammer????

2. Bullet construction.......At a recent trip to the rifle range and talking with a couple guys there, I ran into more than one fella' that was shooting a multi thousand dollar custom rifle with a $1,500 plus scope on it and shooting blue box federal or corlokt ammo. Not that there's anything wrong with the cheap stuff, but why would you skimp on the ONLY piece of your hunting setup that will actually put your target down? I find myself now seeing how a smaller caliber with a quality constructed bullet is superior to a big boomer shooting a bullet likely to come apart during penetration. Example: I would now be much more confident with a shot at a big bodied deer with a .25-06 or .270 loaded with Accubonds, Partitions, or TSX's (or something similar) than my current .300 Win. Mag. with cheaply constructed bullets.

3. Optics, optics, optics. I read somewhere that most hunter are "Over magnified and under scoped". Recently having the opportunity to have a Swarovski scope on my rifle, I can't help but agree. Not to say there aren't quality optics out there that don't cost a grand or more, but you sure do get what you pay for 99% of the time with optics. I always wondered how these guys I read about were taking 200-300 yard shots with scopes using "moderate" magnification. Well, now I know.

4. This is what I think is the absolute most important thing we can pass down to new or young hunters....SHOT PLACEMENT!
This may seem like such a obvious thing, but I know there are many youngsters or new hunters who are simply told to "shoot behind the shoulder". On a broadside shot...sure....but what about if the animal is quartering to or away?

This is me being bored with not much else to do than blab. I want to give a BIG thanks to all of you folks who have taken them time to help educate me, even if you only voiced opinions.

O.K......I'll stop

GO RANGERS!!!!!


SCHOOLCRAFT

Spot on schoolcraft, and well said.

BULLCHIT!!! LMFAO!!!!

For whatever reason, you failed. Why should the rest of us suffer? You magnum haters are funny as hell!!

What's funny is, I could care less. I just keep reading these post. You guys talk like a rifle that is more effective is not worth it. That is funny as it gets.

If you are going to post this kind of BS, at least do your homework. The ballistic coefficient of the 300 ultra mag will smoke a 25.06 or a .270 like a big free bag of weed. Please prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by schoolcraft
2. Bullet construction.......At a recent trip to the rifle range and talking with a couple guys there, I ran into more than one fella' that was shooting a multi thousand dollar custom rifle with a $1,500 plus scope on it and shooting blue box federal or corlokt ammo. Not that there's anything wrong with the cheap stuff, but why would you skimp on the ONLY piece of your hunting setup that will actually put your target down? I find myself now seeing how a smaller caliber with a quality constructed bullet is superior to a big boomer shooting a bullet likely to come apart during penetration. Example: I would now be much more confident with a shot at a big bodied deer with a .25-06 or .270 loaded with Accubonds, Partitions, or TSX's (or something similar) than my current .300 Win. Mag. with cheaply constructed bullets.


If you are going to post this kind of BS, at least do your homework. The ballistic coefficient of the 300 ultra mag will smoke a 25.06 or a .270 like a big free bag of weed. Please prove me wrong.

Colorado,
For someone who "doesn't care", you seem to have some very strong opinions about ballistic coefficient. Wouldn't argue with your statement about the .300 Ultra smoking a .25-06 in the BC department at all........but that wasn't what my post was about. It was about BULLET CONSTRUCTION.
Take a block of ballistic gel at 100 yards and fire a 180gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip out of your .300 Ultra then take another block of gel and fire a 130gr. Barnes TSX from a .270 Win. You might be VERY suprised at which of those bullets held together better and penetrated deeper.
If you live in Colorado, then I would assume that you're able to hunt elk. You're a very lucky person, and your .300 Ultra is well served for that application. I am BY NO MEANS a magnum hater. Never claimed to be. I just had a .300 Win. Mag. built myself. (big mistake....I just don't need that large of a caliber). I stated ealier that the great majority of game can be taken with calibers NOT ending in "magnum". Just like a person can cleanly take an elk with a .30-06 with well constructed bullets and some common sense range limitations. Yes, your .300 Ultra shooting the same bullet as that 06' will give you considerably more range to work with.....which is why I mentioned that magnums had their place for big boned game like elk and for longer range situations.
Why do you feel the need to jump on someones post and call it BS? Especially considering I simply stated that bullet construction was important. I guess I could ask you that question. When you take your .300 Ultra on an elk hunt, is bullet construction important to you? Or do you buy/load the most inexpensive bullet you can find?
Of course you don't.....I've read your post for years and you certainly know what your talking about. I think you read my post and took a detour from it's intended meaning, and there was no reason for the "BS" comment.

SCHOOLCRAFT

I used to huint with a magnum. A .44 magnum. It was a great rifle to begin hunting with.

No one should ever feel that I was overgunned with a good old .44 mag rifle. I always felt a bit undergunned, yet I took deer with it. Good times indeed.

First - take a chill pill.

Second - do some homework of your own. The .300 Ultra Mag itself doesn't have a ballistic coefficient. BCs are a function of the bullet, not of the chambering. Your .300 RUM might push it faster and farther as a result, but I can send the same bullet (with its associated BC) through my .308, .30-06, or .300 WBY.

We all know that you're a flag-waving fan of the .300 RUM. That's fine if it works for you. This isn't a football game.

Second - do some homework of your own. The .300 Ultra Mag itself doesn't have a ballistic coefficient. BCs are a function of the bullet, not of the chambering. Your .300 RUM might push it faster and farther as a result, but I can send the same bullet (with its associated BC) through my .308, .30-06, or .300 WBY.


Good point HB.....


Colorado,

Take 2 bullets with similar/identical BC's. Let's say a 200gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and a 200gr. Nosler Accubond out of your .300 RUM ......virtually identical BC's right?

Put both of those through an elks shoulder and see if the Accubonds CONSTRUCTION doesn't win every time.

It's just every other post is bashing magnums. There is nothing wrong with them. In fact they are better in my opinion. I just don't get it. But you're right, I should take a chill pill. Magnums are like Tim Tebow. People either love them or they hate them.

I agree totally about the stomper magnums schoolcraft. They have their place but way too many people have been led down the path to thinking they "need" one for deer hunting by TV shows and hunting magazines. The average shot distance on deer in my neck of the woods here in Alabama is probably less than 100 yards. There is absolutely no advantage to using a magnum on deer sized animals at such short ranges. But lord have mercy you should see some of the howitzers being dragged into the woods down here to shoot at these relatively small southern deer at point blank ranges. I've seen some of these guys here with such a wicked recoil induced flinch from their whiz bang super uber duper mag that they couldn't keep 3 shots on a sheet of loose leaf notebook paper at 100 yards. Most would have been waaaay better off with a 7mm-08 or a 270 but of course they wouldn't hear of shooting any gun less manly than their super duper (faster than your gun) hyper warp drive atomic pile driver. Why don't you realize that their uber mag only drops 2 inches at 400 yards? Of course they couldn't hit a dump truck at 400 yards with it but that's beside the point. It only drops 2 inches man!!!!!

I saw a guy dropping a deer off at a processor one night that he had shot with a 300 WSM quartering hard away from him at a distance of about 60 yards. (I know because I spoke with him) Bullet entered just in front of the right ham angling to-wards the left front shoulder. I watched them jerk the hide off that deer and there is no doubt in my mind that the entire front half of that deer had to be thrown away. At that range the hyper velocity impact had totally fragmented the bullet and that deer looked like a car had hit it. The tenderloins and "both" front shoulders were bloodshot as hell. Gut and bowel content were everywhere. What a waste.

Colorado,

I know it must get old seeing all the magnum bashing threads. It honestly was not my intent to come across as "bashing" magnums. They MOST DEFINITLY have their place. Even with just whitetail deer.....If I hunted in South Texas looking down LONG senderos out of a elevated box stand, a 7mm. Rem. Mag. or .300 Win. or .300 RUM would be awesome for the TRULY long shots. On our smaller Texas deer, a good .25-06, .270, .280, or .30-06 would be sufficient for the ranges that I have any business shooting.
You're more the exception than the rule Colorado. MOST folks can't go grab a .300 RUM off the shelf a be proficient with it. I guess my point originally was that many hunters go out with too much gun and not enough experience with it.

Some of what you say holds merit schoolcraft. I think that the problem with bad shots is confined to the magnum world, like alot of people try to pin it on, its all calibers. Too many guys, and I know a bunch from wisconsin like this, shoot maybe four rounds all year, then go out and whine, when they miss a deer at 50 yards, or they wound one, and suddenly the 308 is garbage, wont put deer down(yes I heard this from a gunshop). Then the poor shooter buys a 300 mag, and throws a cheap scope, and cheap ammo in it. Then, people jump on the bash the mags bandwagon. There isnt a thing wrong with magnums, and it seems the ones who bash them the most are either armchair gun experts, or those who are recoil intolerant. I had a crusty old man at Sportmans warehouse(employee) here in town tell me, dont need anything bigger then an '06. I laughed and told him, you dont need anything bigger then a 30/30 if you can actually shoot. He didnt like that. I still prefer my magnums, and I shoot them alot, and shoot them well. I blow ballistic tips for plinking, but stick to accubonds or partitions for hunting. IMO, if you are hunting with lower velocity standard calibers, the regular ammo is fine. When you get up in speed, then the choice of bullet becomes important. My 30/30 gets fed cheap stuff. The '06, regular bullets or ballistic tips. The 45/70 gets hornady flatpoints. The rest get better bullets. After learning about junk scopes, all I run is good glass. It may not be swaro, but its not simmons either. I once heard someone say, spend as much on glass as you do on the rifle. I wouldnt set that in stone, but I fail to see the sense in buying a $700 rifle, and throwing a $59 wally world scope on it. If you cant at least put a $400 piece of glass on it, get a cheaper gun and put better glass on it, and practice. There is sound reason why I got the cherry spots to sit, while everyone else did the deer drives thru the blackberries up north. I had a gun big enough to reach out and touch someone, I was the best shot, and everything I touched went flop.

I agree with this up to a point. I do believe that many people are over magnified. I collect and shoot military surplus rifles. Hunt with them at times also. And it's pretty amazing how far out you can keep a bullet inside a circle the size of deers vitals using just open sights. With practice 200 yards is no major feet. That being the case I don't really see the need for more than a 3x9 power scope on a rifle. I can shoot very accurately way out there with a straight 6 power scope.

Where do I disagree? I don't think you need to go all the way up to a Swarovski to get all the scope the average person needs to fill their needs. In fact I think that out around the 500 dollar mark you start to hit a point of seriously diminishing return on your investment. Is a Swarovski a better scope than others in the 500 to 550 dollar range? Yep, but there really isn't anything I can do with it from a hunting standpoint here that I can't do with a 500 dollar Leupold or Zeiss. I can see to shoot well past legal shooting light with these scopes. They don't fog up. They are clear. They hold zero. That being the case I just can't justify making the jump in price up to a Swarovski. But if anyone wanted to give me one to prove me wrong I am an open minded soul. LOL!

All the fun stuff is expensive!!

I pretty much agree, for the average hunter shooting under 300yrds hunting, deer, hogs, coyotes, black bears, moose and even elk (how many have been killed with 30-30's?). A magnum isn't needed, but if someone wants one and CAN shoot one well then go for it.

What makes a bullet a premium bullet? Price? Construction? Materials used? BC? Color of the tip? Would you rather shoot cheaper bullets that shot sub-moa all day long and you had faith in hitting the target with, or expensive "premium" ammo that you can barely hit a pie plate with at 300yrds?

Agreed, not everyone needs a Swaro but something better then a Wal-Mart or Big5 special is worth A LOT out in the field!!

See #2


WOOOOHOOOO...Napoli!!!

I guess it just goes to show folks that the lessons that I'VE learned might only apply to someone else a little or not at all.

It's very cool to have some many people with different opinions and experiences come together in one big place to share their passion for hunting/firearms/reloading/ect.

Even if we sometimes have to "agree to disagree".


GO RANGERS!!!!!!!



SCHOOLCRAFT

I shoot those blue box 270win-130gr, they group the best in my rifle, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a muley out to 500yds with that load.

No need for a super premium bullet when a good quality bullet is being used, ie I don't need a TSX for deer with my 270 when a core lokt will get the job done well.

I think using the correct bullet becomes much more important when you're marginalizing the cartridge/game being hunted. ie an elk with a 270 I'd much rather have a TSX than a blue box federals, but then again a blue box 300win.mag federal would be perfectly fine probably.

Magnum-itus does exist I think, but so does shooting tiny/dinky cartridges for game too big. Doesn't take a 300mag to kill a deer at 200yds, but I wouldn't go on a brown bear hunt with a 270 either.

Sometimes guys just have a favorite rifle/cartridge, my cousin would probably take his 375H&H on every future hunt if he could.

PS- I do think, plan for the worst shot, ie that trophy bull elk on the last day of the guided hunt at 400yds 1/4 away,

what do you want to have in your hand? a 270win w/130gr or that 340wby with 225gr TSX?

go on a deer hunt with a 270, and you'll have few arguments, just as an elk hunt with a 300mag.

I do think I'd rather be over gunned than under gunned, but at the same time realizing I don't need to be the macho man in camp with the biggest magnum making fun of other deer hunters carrying the wimpy 270...haha.

I say shoot whatever you are comfortable with. The problem I see is guys buying magnums to compensate for marginal shooting ability, but the flinch they develope deteriorates their shooting further. For deer sized game, why does the 300 Win Mag or 7mm have to be the gun of choice? I have a 257 Weatherby Mag that is pleasant to shoot (although not on the wallet), and I don't think anyone will disparage the ballistics on that one. I reserve it for hunts out West, as most of my shots are within 50 yards at home, and my 30-30 or 30-06 do just fine. Shoot whatever you are willing to put the range time in on. (And I do work with a fellow who hunts elk with a 300 RUM, and he is the best marksman I know, capable of killing elk out to 700 yards. I would never tell him he was over-gunned. Unfortunately, some are.)

What have you guys bought that seemed like greatest thing to have/use or bought because it was on tv and ended up being a waste of money?

For me it was Nikon scopes, i got 3 Nikon Buckmasters w/ SF and a Nikon Monarch. None of them will shoot the box or return to zero. I didn't realize how bad they were till i tried to shoot at a 300yd target and adjust for my drop rate and it didn't move from my 100yd zero then jumped 6" over the 10 ring with only 1" more elevation added to it.

Nikon scopes just suck. I'd probably give you a couple hundred bucks for all of them. I don't really need them but I would do it to help you out.

I got a deer in the freezer shot at 300 yards that would disagree with you on being shot with a sucky nikon scope they work just fine for me. It holds zero and has nice clarity. It may not be has nice as a leupold or zeiss but it is way better than a wally special.

+2 those Federal Powershoks shoot sub moa for me and just shoot very well in the majority of the guns I've tried them in. I don't see a problem with them, and they are more than enough bullet for deer, and probably anything else on this planet.

That said, I don't shoot them all that often mostly because I don't shoot much factory ammo, but they do shoot amazingly well for me at a cheap price and I'd have no problem at all shooting them in a custom rifle, or taking them hunting in most any scenario I go in.

I'm kind of wondering about this on mine. I've got a couple Monarchs and I like the scopes, and when sighting them in I did a box test and it passed with flying colors and seemed repeatable. I took it out twice and shot long range with it dialing in for 40-50" drop the second time and I was pretty constantly adjusting the turrets. I set the turrets back to 0 and came back and put the gun up. The next time I went shooting I shot at 100 yards again and to my surprise the thing was shooting 2.5" right and it was either low or high by about an inch. I can't remember which. I was shocked to say the least. I dialed it back in and did another box test which it passed and it seemed like it was returning to zero. I'm not sure what the deal is here. I almost think that after repeated adjustments it wasn't returning to zero like it should, but I can't prove that's what it was. The whole thing just seemed weird though and it made me doubt the scopes ability to track well.

That said, the scopes have been durable for me and they always seem to stay zeroed after sighting them in if I don't make adjustments, and they are pretty solid scopes for the money. I think there are better scopes for the price, but these are pretty decent. I do think the Burris FFII's are a better scope and have better glass than the Monarchs at a cheaper price.

I guess we all have different tastes...I've owned the same Ruger M-77 since 1980...She came with a Bushnell Scopechief which was a $130 scope back then...I started with 100gr Remington CoreLokts, used her through the mid-90s and put a Leupold VX-II 3x9x40 on her...


I've tried most factory loadings for deer...Ended up coming back to 100gr CoreLokts...I've killed at least 300 deer with this rifle with about 70% falling to the CoreLokts...

How are you going to argue with success like that??? No magnum, no high end scope and using regular cup and core ammo???

you can't. ive been shooting guns since i was 6, and am now 16. yea i know, i don't have a whole lot of experience with every caliber out there, but i know my fair share. I have a marlin xl7 .270, shoot core lokts, and have a bushnell, maybe 70$ dollar scope. I group an inch at 100, an inch. I could care less if anyone says i don't have the best scope, gun or ammo out there when it hits like that. like you said, you can't argue with success like that.

RR, don't BS us, you are in the top .5% of all shooters...You like long range shooting so that's what you are set up for...

The average joe has a problem consistently scoring at 300 yards...I've found when we have guests the problem with accuracy starts to show from 125-150 yards...Most can't make a clean kill on a deer at 200...I know that's a chip shot for you, but you take a .270 and 130gr CoreLokts and 300 yards will do the job every time...

Probably not, but that same setup may not hold its zero after a rough ride down one of our forest roads to hunt elk here, or if you slip and fall, and it gets banged on accident. I think if you had the chance to see first hand, how much better a $400 scope is, you would change your mind. At 16, thats not feasible for most, it wasnt for me at your age. When get a chance though, try shooting one. We have a XL7 in wood, very early production, in '06. Nice rifle, other then the stock came loose. Threw a cheapo simmons I had laying around on it. Looks like a shotgun target when you get done. Right now, I blame the scope, solely because Ive had it on two other guns, and they never grouped that good. I think my 300RUM killed it honestly,lol.

If I were to lay out the money for that kind of hunt, I'd take my .54 flintlock...
If I had to take a centerfire, it would be my .243...It's the only centerfire I have owned since 1980 and I've killed plenty of deer and even a few black bears with...
I know what it will do, why change???

But, I'm not the type to pay a bunch of money for someone else to take me hunting...I'm the one taking others hunting and trying to help them, it's just my nature...

I have raised 3 daughters, put them through college and payed for 2 weddings...Shelling out the bucks for a fancy out of state hunt ain't happening... :)

That sounds tempting, I've been wanting to get a Leupold VX-III CDS for my 280AI.:fighting0007:

I love my VX-III. It's the best scope I have right now.

Is there any issue of turning the elevation turret while your carrying it, that's my only worry that i will move it and not notice it.

yea i mean imo its all about what your doing. this is a PA deer gun. i have about a 5% chance of getting a shot over 150 yards. i don't even have a job and get out gun hunting 5 times. bow hunting is my thing and where most of my money goes to because i'm out almost everyday. if i had the chance to hunt bigger game, where long shots and sub moa accuracy is required, your right. i would be getting the best rifle and scope i could. but this will definitely serve its purpose for now.

I don't have the custom dial. I just have a regular 4.5-14x50 on my 300 RUM. I like it a lot. I don't like adjustable objectives or any other extra dials. If it were an option all of my scopes would have an "EASY BUTTON". Things just happen to fast when hunting.