9mm, .38, .357 rumor-mill/opinion question?
 

My wife and I had an interesting conversation with a few older shooters this weekend which I thought I'd pass along. It stems from the question of which is right, the "popular opinion", or "the facts".

The question essentially became, "which has more stopping power, a 9mm or a .38spcl?"

Naturally, the older shooters were convinced that the .38spcl was far superior to the 9mm, however, after 10yrs of reloading both, at worst I'd say the 9mm and .38spcl are equal, otherwise I'd give the nod to the 9mm, even though it's not the popular opinion (while I don't LIKE the fact that a 9mm pistol is superior to a .38spcl revolver, I do believe it).

So where do YOU lie on this spectrum? Which do you believe has more stopping power, the 9mm Luger or the .38spcl? Without starting a debate about reliability of pistols vs revolvers, or ammo capacity, etc etc, JUST BASED ON STOPPING POWER, which do you think is the superior cartridge?

The backstory, for those that are interested:

My wife has 2 primary CC weapons, a Springfield EMP 1911 9mm, and a Ruger SP-101 Talo Edition .357mag. We were at the range trying out loads for her new SP-101, and my wife noticed that the recoil on the .38spcls actually felt LESS than the 9mm.

My wife is a double distinguished expert NRA shooter, but actually knows very little about cartridges, other than how to deliver them on target. She was very surprised when I pointed out that her 9mm loads we were shooting actually had MORE energy than the "bigger" .38spcls she was shooting, which explained the recoil.

Her contention, then, was that we shouldn't be wasting time with .38spcl loads, since her 9mm held more rounds and had the same power, so she thought the revolver should only use .357mag so it would have more stopping power "per shot" (I was a very proud husband at that point).

Which is when the older shooters, who had been evesdropping, entered the conversation. They contested that the stopping power of the revolver with .38spcls was FAR superior to the 9mm pistol, making it the better choice. However, they didn't have anything to back it up except shaking their head and saying "oh the .38's got more power", even though the chronograph results showed otherwise.

So again, is it still the popular opinion that the .38spcl has more "stopping power" than the 9x19mm? Or have at least the shooters on this board reasoned their way through the rumor-mill and seen the FACTS behind the energy numbers?

I prefer a .357, .40 S&W or .45 ACP for personal protection, but with the 2 rounds you mentioned, you are right...The 9mm has more velocity so naturally it will have more energy...Here is a quick comparison from Federal's website...

http://www.federalpremium.com/produc...n_compare.aspx

Well, the performance between most of the popular calibers for self defense isn't much today. I've been doing a lot of research on the calibers and rounds available. At least the widely used ones.

.380, .38, 9mm, 40 S&W, and the .357 mag.

Granted, there are other rounds, but these are the popular ones.

The .380 is by far the weakest of them. It's better than nothing, but not all that great.

The .38 is a step up and has good numbers. However, compared to the other rounds listed it's not as powerful as the others. The other rounds are considered possible one shot stoppers. The .38 even using the +p rounds doesn't compare with next level of calibers. It has less kick because it has less power than the next group.

The 9mm is more than effective enough for SD. The .40 S&W comes in ahead of it, but not by much with modern day ammo.

The .357 mag is the next step up, although not a huge step up. It's still considered the best SD round because it packs a good punch and is controllable. The only thing about the .357 mag is that you don't get nearly as many rounds as you do with a 9mm or .40 cal.

It then becomes the argument of quantity over quality. An endless debate if there ever was one.

The 38 spl is not nearly as powerful as the 9mm. Even a +P load out of the 38 falls short of the standard 9mm.

It's quite humorous to listen to people bad mouth the 9mm as being weak and ineffective and find out they carry a 38spl.

There is nothing wrong with either rounds though. Both are plenty effective at any practical distance that you would be engaging an attacker with a hand gun.

People hear all the horror stories from wars at the ineffectiveness of the 9mm. What they don't take into account is that the military is mandated by NATO to use ball ammo. They do not have the luxury to use real defense ammo like we do. This is a major problem of the 5.56x45 as well.

This is my point exactly, it's pretty obvious that a lot of "gun nuts" are still prone to simply looking at the case size then determining that the .38spcl "certainly must be more powerful than a 9mm", even though the powder load is usually about the same, and the energy/velocity of the 9mm are almost ALWAYS superior with the same bullet weight.

It's almost like it's a conspiracy theory that some guys feel the need to propogate. The LA shootout forever left a scar on the reputation of the 9mm as being "underpowered", and forever onward the 9mm is branded as a poor performer.

It's good to see that at least the guys on here caught the clue that the numbers don't lie.

If you go by just the energy numbers, the 9x19 has more energy than the .38 Special. However, compare the numbers of a 9x19 and a .45 ACP with the same barrel length. I would choose a .45 ACP for personal protection over a 9x19 or even a .40 S&W. Actual performance is more important than paper numbers. I have talked with farmers and ranchers who have both 9x19 and .38 Special, and they say the .38 Special performs better on problem wild animals. It is rare a second shot is need with the .38 Special, but it is normal for two or three shots to be required when shooting a 9x19 on the same type of wild animal.

You mentioned your wife has a SP101 in .357 Mag. Does she have the 3" barrel or a shorter barrel? You lose velocity and energy with every inch of barrel length while gaining muzzle blast and muzzle flash. I prefer the medium power .357 Mag personal protection ammo with a heavier bullet in 3" barrels. It is a good idea to shoot your personal protection ammo in a controlled environment in very low light to see how much muzzle flash your ammo produces in that particular firearm.

Here is a link that has some interesting info.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

This is due to the cylinder gap of the revolver. Shoot a .38 Special from a 4" barrel revolver and compare the velocity and energy with a 9x19 shot from a revolver with the same cylinder gap and barrel length. Use the same bullet weight for each load.

Looks like we have our first taker!

I'm not interested in comparing a .38spcl or 9x19mm to a .45acp. It's obvious that if I used a .44mag I'd have a lot more stopping power than a .22lr, but my point was specifically regarding the common misconception that a 9mm was WEAKER than a .38spcl. There is no arguement that both are weaker than the .45acp.

Let's be honest, though, the pressure difference is the real kicker between the .38spcl and the 9x19mm. It doesn't take an engineering degree to figure out the power factor difference for a similar projectile being driven AT TWICE THE PRESSURE. Twice the pressure means twice the force, means twice the potential acceleration, meaning MORE POWER from half the case volume.

Claiming that the BC gap vents all of the .38spcl's power is BS. I could equally argue that a revolver should have MORE power because none of it's energy is wasted on driving the slide rearward, nor vented through the breech... Facts is facts, double the pressure means more power in the 9mm para.

In my own personal experience with dispatching wild animals, being a farmer/rancher myself, I would strongly disagree with this statement. Yes, if you're talking about the cheapest ammo that the typical farmer would buy, maybe this is true, but we're not talking apples to apples. Cheap .38spcl ammo is typically lead round nosed or lead semi-wadcutter bullets, which are actually quite effective on small game. Cheap 9mm Para ammo is typically ball ammo (FMJ), which obviously is NOT very effective on anything. I've used 9x19mm JHP's to dispatch MANY coons and oppossums that have ventured into my outbuildings at night, with nary an arguement.


Her's is the 2.25" barrel Talo Edition SP-101 (machine engraved). The load we've had the best accuracy with so far is pushing a 158grn JHP at 1170fps. Pretty moderate recoil, even for a snubbie, and plenty of umph to deliver enough energy on target.

Part of our "home defense plan" is training to shoot iso style (which is our prefered pistol shooting stance in any conditions), including training in the dark (moonlit nights at our range work out nicely), and blinking on the shot. Inside a room, you're 10-15ft away or less, so aiming with your body is just as effective as aiming with sights, and blinking on the shot helps reduce the effect of muzzle blast. Pretty much the same technique can be practiced by firing your weapon blindfolded, which is another natural POA training technique we practice.

Like I said, shoot a 125 Gr full power .38 Special (standard pressure) from a 4" revolver and then fire a 124 Gr full power 9x19 (standard pressure and not NATO) from a 4" revolver. The SP101 was offered in 9x19 with a 4" barrel.

Go to ballistics by the inch and look at the velocity for a 9x19 and .38 Special fired from a 16" barrel rifle. They have standard pressure CorBon in 124 Gr for the 9x19 and standard pressure Cor Bon in 125 Gr for the .38 Special. The velocity is higher for the .38 Special.

You do loose velocity from a revolver cylinder gap. Gases from the burning powder are expelled through the cylinder gap. A ported barrel in a revolver may increase the velocity of a bullet, but there is definite velocity loss from the cylinder gap. Find someone with a T/C Encore in .357 Mag. Fire a .38 Special round from that and compare it with the same ammo type fired from a revolver with the same barrel length.

As to performance, there is a reason federal agents used a .38 Special snub nose as a backup vs. a 9mm pocket pistol. The ammo needed to adequately penetrate cover.

Shoot what you are comfortable with. If given the choice of a 9x19 or .38 Special only, I prefer the .38 Special. I will take the performance of a blunt and wide semi-jacketed HP 158 Gr. in .38 Special (full standard power) vs. any standard pressure 9x19.

Country1, the end velocity and energy are what get reported. So the energy lost from a revolver doesn't mean anything.

What matters is barrel length, bullet weight, and powder used to propel the bullet.

It's those factors that make magnums with less than 3" barrels require loads that burn their powder faster than standard loads to have similar velocity and energy with their longer barreled cousins.

Your non-magnum loads are more forgiving with energy loss in shorter barreled guns. This has been proven true many times over by the professional shooters. It's a matter of matching specific rounds with specific guns to have the best possible effect when the time comes.