Getting the "Black Rifle" itch..
 

So, what do I look for in one of these? I want it to be a 5.56 /.223, that's about all I know. These things have so many options I simply don't know where to start. I'll mainly use it for target shooting/plinking, no competition or hunting use. I want to buy a complete gun, I don't have the time or knowledge to piece one together. I'm not looking to outfit it as a full blown tactical rifle, I'll most likely put a decent red dot on it and nothing else. What type of mags should I purchase? I also don't want to break the bank, would like to keep it under $1000.00 if possible. Educate me fellas...:popcorn:

theres a ton of decent ones in your price range. Id keep an eye on cdnn for the sales they have, hard to beat unless you run across a good used one. I like rockriver in your price range.

For under $1000, ur probably looking at a DPMS. Standard barrel or M4 style Bushmasters and Rock River Arms can be had for less than $1000, but I usually find myself shooting from a bench, or at long ranges, so I prefer a full length gas system, and a heavy barrel.

The DPMS Lo-Pro Classic is a pretty good bargain ($800ish?). Get a new trigger (or a trigger spring kit), and a good optic and you'll have a real shooter.

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CGcQ8wIwAg#

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CGsQ8wIwAw#

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...637db3da22c2bb

Sorry Halfbaked, I should have been a little more specific, I'm looking at the AR style rigs. Also, what features I should look for and what to avoid.

Buy used and get a Rock River. They can be had in my area for about $900 with lots of extras.

Tom

Got it. Is that the norm?

1 in 9" is more common these days, but the 1 in 8" twist lets you push heavier bullets that perform better on bigger varmints like coyotes, and buck the wind better for longer range shooting. I can't think of the last time I pushed a 40grn pill out of a .223, I typically opt for a 50-55grn for hunting, but I keep a good supply of 77grn Matchking's around to feed my 1:7.7" Kreiger barreled AR-15 when I want to reach out and punch paper WAY down town.

Is a chromed bolt carrier group a necessity? I've read enough to go with a chrome lined barrel. I think.

Not a necessity but makes cleaning easier.

Do you have a friend with one?

Tom

Not really. I'm the first in my circle to take an interest in these.

Chrome lined chambers and chrome plated bolt carriers are much less important to civilian shooters that can thoroughly clean their guns regularly, and don't have their LIVES depending on their rifle going "Bang"...

Any chance there is a local gun club where you can go to test shoot them before you decide to buy one?

I got the itch a while back. I bought three of them over the years. I don't have one anymore and really don't ever want one again. Just not for me.

Now on the other hand, if I had a boat load of money and were willing to buy ammo by the case and go out to a rock quarry or something like it and set up things to shoot (jugs, cans, watermellons etc..) and just blast away like Rambo, I think I'd have several of them again.

Tom

None of the clubs that are local have guns to rent if that's what you mean. I've eyed these things for a while and I'm just now starting to investigate them. I got alot of good info at AR15.com but I still can't nail down exactly what I need / want. I'm leaning towards the Rock River Arms Tactical Entry. Seems like a pretty good rifle to start with. Anyone on here have an opinion on RRA?

My word of caution would be that "the itch" isn't terminal... Everybody, at one time or another, gets a "need" for a "high volume plinker", "tactical rifle", "black rifle", etc etc, but after the new wears off, you're basically left with a $2000 toy sitting in the safe collecting dust. You'll be so excited as you spend a few hours loading up a dozen 30rnd magazines, and you'll love the rush as you tear off shots as fast as your finger can twitch, but then at the end of the day, your accuracy sucked and you just blew $100 of ammo, and you spent 2hrs loading magazines, only to blow them empty within 20min.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of the AR-15 platform, and own several. I also build custom AR-15's. I'm not a fan of the 4 rail "tactical" styled AR-15's, but I have a lot of customers with "the itch" that order them.

Where I think the AR-15 really shines is on the bench. Admittedly, no, it can't keep pace with a top end bolt action rife, but many of my rifles have acheived 0.5-0.25MOA accuracy, even with factory ammo. For the competitive shooter, it's an advantage to have a semiauto so the shooter can minimize shot to shot time, allowing them to shoot a group quickly while wind conditions are relatively constant. The accurized AR-15 semiauto also eliminates the necessity to move to cycle the bolt, so the shooter can retain his consistent shooting position from shot to shot. For long range coyote or prairie dog hunters, or for heavy brush hog hunters, it's also an advantage to be able to deliver quick follow up shots while keeping the scope on target. Which is also a huge advantage while tracking running game.

One day sitting over a prairie dog town with an accurized AR-15 and you'll be hooked for life.

But again, most guys get a "rambo complex", aka "the itch" at one time or another, so they'll seek out a "tactical" 4-rail AR-15 and spend $2-3,000 on the rifle and accessories, only to realize that they have no real practical use for it.

See above. When the itch comes back. Read above again.

If you have a semi-auto itch right now that needs scratching look into some of the hunting rifle offerings that are semi-auto. Something in a really small cartridge like a .243 Win or 7mm-08. Semi auto hunting rifle in heavy duty cartridges aren't really practical as follow up shots can be difficult with the heavy recoil.

As for me I'm on the hunt for a Winchester 100 in .243 Win. If I find one in great condition I don't care where, it's coming home with me.

Tom

I got one in a 284 Win., a nice gun but I dont shoot it often, I have too many other guns to shoot, this one is put up.

Camo,

I was thinking about your post last night. If this black gun thing is something that you just have to itch. Just got to do it.

I'd suggest getting an LAR-8. Which is an AR chambered for .308 Win. That way when your trigger happiness wears off you'll still have a big game hunting rifle.

They cost more money but not that much more. Maybe like $300 more.

Tom

I understand what you guys are saying, I really do, but heres the thing. I've been slowly shrinking my gun collection down. I had way more deer rifles than I needed and I had several I never even used. I'm getting into the mind set that Quality over quantity is much better. I live and hunt in PA so semi auto deer and varmint rifles are out for me. Basically this is a just a want and not a need. It will fill a void in my safe. No, I won't be using it much but it's still something I would like to have. I'm not the Rambo type, I'm not going to hang lights and lasers or anything else off of it. A nice optic and I'm done. I did just find out that a buddy of mine in Ill is the son in law of Bill Wylde. He's been giving me some good info too and has offered to go over whatever gun I get this year when I go out there bowhunting. Anyway, a basic AR is all I'm after, the only thing I really want as far as an accessory is an adjustable stock. Thats the only Rambo part I want. Simply because I like how it looks. :s1:

Another option for the semiauto rifle with a bit of "black rifle" flair is the Winchester SX-AR (FN FN-AR clone) in .308win. Heavy barrel, camo coat, all the knock down power of a .308win, in a very manageable platform. A work colleague of mine used one this summer on our many prairie dog trips together, performed flawlessly from 60-400yrds on p-dogs even with cheap russian steel cased JHP's. Remarkably, recoil was manageable enough to keep the dogs in the scope for quick follow up shots.

The calapsable stock is probably the most useful mod on an AR. You'll likely end up buying all the doo-dads. Enjoy.

TT

Well it sounds like at least you've given it plenty of thought. There are just SO many guys that buy an AR-15, then 6months later (or less) start getting buyers remorse. But for some of us, the AR-15 IS useful, and it's definitely hard to find a more accurate plinking platform.

Since it also sounds like it'll be primarily a plinking rifle, then I would suggest getting an 18" or 20" heavy barrel, flat-top model with a good trigger and free-float handguard (or on a budget, install a trigger kit like a JP enterprises trigger spring kit). Mount a bipod and a good scope. The "short" heavy barrel is still plenty maneuverable, but

Also, since you said you want an adjustable stock, I HIGHLY recommend getting a cheekpiece also. The adjustable stock is great for head up shooting (fast firing without much attention to accuracy)
it's fine, but for using a scope, the adjustable stocks are typically uncomfortable. When adjusted to a proper Length Of Pull, my cheek/jawbone usually rests at the forward end of the slider, so the edge digs in and gets uncomfortable after a few shots. Most "name-brand" telescoping stocks have clip on cheek pieces available.

Easy answer for a "black rifle on a budget", but still getting a quality rifle: DPMS Lo-Pro Classic ($800) plus a JP Enterprises trigger spring kit ($75), have a swivel stud mounted in the forend ($65 by gunsmith), mount a Harris bi-pod ($80), and mount a good scope (Bushnell Banner 4-12x40mm AO $110). It won't have the telescoping stock you want, but you can add one for $60 (a down-grade to be honest, but you're right, it does look cool). That lines up for about $1200 for the rifle with a scope and bi-pod, ready to go...

Thanks NoMercy. Alot of good info. So you prefer the DPMS over the RRA when talking entry level rifles?

Thanks Stat, but I highly doubt I put any do-dads on this. Not my style if you know what I mean.

The RRA is about $1,000-1,200 for a heavy barreled models around here, which is in line with the Bushmasters, either of which I would recommend at that price (and I wouldn't pay more than that for an AR-15 unless it was a custom job). The DPMS are considerably cheaper, and definitely the best heavy barrel AR-15 available for $700-800 new (mind you, it DOES need a new trigger or trigger spring-kit).

I had the "itch" a year ago and just bought mine. After doing the research you're now doing, I ended up with the Rock River Arms Tactical Entry. RRA comes with the 2 stage trigger and match barrel for 1100. Once you add a new trigger and barrell to the DPMS, Bushmaster, or S&W, you're in the $1,500 range. Most of the gunsmiths and shops I spoke with favored Rock River for gas operated AR15. LWRC was the top recommended AR for piston systems (I don't need to shoot underwater).

Out to 200 yards it is as accurate as my Rem 700 bolt actions @1 MOA. opens up from there. I'm very happy with RRA.

Get yourself PMAGs to replace the factory magazines. PMAGs are the best. I also highly recommend the Lula mag loader.

There is no need to change the barrel or trigger on the Bushmaster. Here is a Bushmaster for you to check out that is under $1500.


http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm...VMS-24-9SS.asp

This is the one that I own, it is amazingly accurate!, straight from the factory, no need to change anything. To be honest, I would have threw in another $200 on that RRA and bought one of these, for what you are using yours for instead of a tactical entry weapon. There is no comparison on the range.

The AR is a very versatile platform. To really take advantage of it though (i.e. not find yourself with a safe queen), you need to have a pretty good idea what you intend to use it for.

I personally use the AR for varminting and occasionally for turkey hunting, for casual target shooting (not to be confused with "blasting"), and often as a training tool. I own two ARs presently, a Colt Government Model (A2) and a RRA Entry Tactical. I've borrowed friends' Bushmasters, Olympics, DPMS, and kit rifles. Here's what I recommend you consider:

1. General Configuration. There's a lot of variety now compared to what was available 25 years ago when I purchased my Colt. A lot of that is due to the "Picatinny Rail." One now has the opportunity to mount optics at a reasonable height, as well as mount any number of accessories depending on the application. Not only are rear sights now detachable, a number of rifles also offer detachable front sights, which provide a much cleaner platform when using optics. Though the collapsible stock is viewed by many as "tacti-cooler" than the old fixed stock, its TRUE value shines through when one's length of pull may not match the length of the standard fixed stock, particularly for smaller-statured shooters (in my case, wife and daughter) or shooters who wear armor (military, LE, etc.). In my opinion, a six-position collapsible stock is worth the investment, as are detachable front and rear sights.

As far as barrels go, Ridgerunner suggested what's probably the best balance regarding rifling at 1:8. Unfortunately, you may not be able to access that without custom-ordering your rifle, as most of the rifles on your dealers' racks will come in either 1:7 or 1:9. 1:7 seems at its best with bullets heavier than 60 grain, while 1:9 seems at its best with bullets lighter than 55 grain. My AR-wielding comrades tend to confirm my assessment that our 16" 1:7 rifles seem to like the old M193 ball (55 gr) best, while our 20" 1:7 rifles seem to like the newer M855 ball (62 gr) better. Since most of the factory ammunition you're likely going to run through your "plinker" will be 55 gr M193 and its clones, you may not find yourself gaining much with a longer barrel (over 16") given that ammunition. Of course, our experiences have been with barrels no longer than 20" though. If you intend to handload 60 grain or heavier bullets, or if you have ready access to M855 ball, you might want to consider a longer barrel.

Regarding any other features, chrome makes cleaning easier. The AR is decidedly one of the most under-maintainable platforms in existence unless you're meticulous and proficient with picks and swabs. I generally recommend people stick with the mil-spec chrome-lined barrel and chamber. A chromed bolt carrier is unnecessary. In terms of magazines, the ONLY times I can remember having issues with magazines was on the firing line with the armorer's magazines - usually filthy and beat up. Stay away from the cheapo Chinese clones, stick with mil-spec or better, and MAINTAIN them. One doesn't need to spend $60 on an AR magazine to get one that works.

2. In terms of manufacturers, lots of things have changed since Colt owned this market. My Colt's always been a decent, though otherwise unremarkable shooter. Its upper and lower receivers have some slop in them as did most of the rifles I carried in the Army. I do like my RRA Entry Tactical, in particular the trigger, but it's a bit annoying at times having to reach for a punch set to disassemble it - it's quite the opposite of the Colt. My Bushmaster and DPMS-owning friends seem to end up doing trigger work, but I don't think there's much difference afterward. We did have some issues with some of the springs in the Bushmaster lowers, but that doesn't seem to have endured in the newer versions we've had. It's the old "Ford-versus-Chevy."

3. My recommendation. Since you're "plinking", I'd recommend a 16" 1:8 if you can get it (1:7 if you can't), collapsible stock, with removable front and rear sights and a chrome bore and chamber. Bushmaster seems to be the most common, but DPMS and RRA are both probably also within your price range - you're probably not going to see a lot of difference. I'd definitely compare the trigger on the RRA with either of the other two if you can, but I wouldn't let it sway you to the RRA alone, as you can upgrade the parts in either of the other two.

No Mercy has really good, spot on advice.
If you want a really good out-of the box rifle, I'd go with a Rock River. RRA varminter if you want to shoot mainly bullets of 69gr or less, RRA NM if you want to shoot heavier (note these will shoot lighter bullets just as well too).

They come with the RRA NM trigger installed- the best 'stock' trigger in an AR. JP enterprises, geissele, and timney make lighter triggers, but you will have to install them yourself. The RRA NM trigger can be a real PITA to install if you upgrade later due to its oversized pins. Barrels are freefloated.

RRA puts good barrels on their rifles, you should expect them to shoot MOA or less. Shoot 4000-4500 rds out of the tub, then upgade to a Krieger, Pac-Nor, Shilen, etc and the rifle will really shine! Mine currently wears a Pac-Nor (from White Oak Armory) but is getting towards the end of its life round-count wise. I'll probably replace it with another soon or with a Krieger.

The downside.... The Heavy barreld ARs are HEAVY. There's a reason why I throw my NM rifle on a cart at the range and tow it up to the line.

I have 2 "black rifles" a Rock River and a Bushmaster...I bought the Bushmaster first and one thing after another was bad on it (I bought it new). After replacing the barrel (with a 1:8 Pac-Nor) and the upper and having trigger work done it finally shoots ok....just ok...even after 2 dozen different load variations :confused0024: I recently bought a Rock River...love it, drops ragged 1 hole groups @ 200 with just about any 45-60g bullet I feed it. Other than a minor trigger adjustment, the rifle has been a dream come true and in the long run it was less $ than I invested in the Bushmaster...so if I had it to do over, I'd go Rock River fro the get go.:cool2:

That being said I also have 2 Mini-14's that out-shoot the Bushmaster a half the price...LOL

Here is the accuracy that I get from my bone stock Bushmaster Varmiter Special SS, factory barrel and trigger, the only thing that isnt factory is the Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x scope. 15 shots at 100 yards that can be covered by a dime, it will do this all day long. I have NEVER even heard of a Mini 14 that even shoots half as good as any AR. As a matter of fact, Mini 14's are known for being over priced and displaying poor accuracy.

All of the accuracy potential in an AR-15 resides in the upper assembly, other than the trigger, there is nothing in the lower receiver that has any bearing on the rifle's accuracy potential.

If the barrel is correctly installed and the upper is properly assembled, it should shoot.

Is it free floated? Besides a good barrel, this is the most important accuracy upgrade on an AR-15.

Is your gas tube properly aligned? If its torsioning against the barrel nut or receiver keyway, it will adversely affect accruracy. Ideally, you want the gas tube to have the least amount of contact possible with the notch in the barrel nut and the keyway. It needs to also be as close to perfectly aligned with the gas key on the bolet carrier as well- you don't want it dragging.

Check the barrel crown.

I'm not sure what you tried for loads, but it should be very easy to find a really accurate load with 69gr SMKs, Winchester brass, CCI 400 or Winchester WSR primers and 24.5-25.5 gr of Varget or RL-15. If it won't shoot with one of these loads, something is wrong with the rifle.

BTW, my first was a Bushmaster too, it had a few problems that I eventually got sorted out.

i have seen one mini 14 that did shoot good ,it was not AR15 good but very good for a 14. most of them would make better boat anchors.
i do under stand the want of a new AR ,my self i'd like to have a new upper in .300 ossm

Im on my 4th black rifle but sold one a few years ago and wish i hadnt.

Rock River CAR4 5.56 flat top
S&W MP-15/22LR
DPMS Oracle 5.56
Colt M16 .22LR

Having to send the MP15 back to S&W because of the extractor "disappearing" somehow (still havent figured that one out) and about 3" from the muzzle inside the barrel there is a groove that runs around the entire bore, not sure whats up there.

I like the AR platform but I'm not a big fan of the "mall ninja" super gizmo attachments that are so popular now.

I have a few AR's but shoot a couple more than others. For hunting I prefer a flat top upper receiver with a short barrel. They are light enough to carry afield and I can add a scope to it or attach the carry handle with iron sights.... what ever I feel like. I don't need super accuracy out of them just good enough for yotes, rabbits, whistle pigs etc...

For plinking give me a lightweight carbine all day, throw in a .22 conversion kit and it's loads of fun all day.

I'm a big fan however of the old school A1 configuration...way cool!

Simple, lightweight A1 upper with Colt pencil barrel and iron sights
the rest of the crew...

Nice!!!! :cool2: :patriot: