Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
07-23-2003, 05:48 PM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salem VA Salem, VA
Posts: 753
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
I' ve never had a problem shooting +P' s out of a Glock, or +P+' s for that matter. Where the " problems" come in is when you shoot lead bullets or get a double charge. Also bullet setback is a problem. If you want to shoot lead through a Glock you need to get an aftermarket barrel. KKM makes one. They even make a 6" barrel for your 21 called the " Hunting Barrel" . Check here for further details....
http://www.glockmeister.com
http://www.glocktalk.com
http://www.glockmeister.com
http://www.glocktalk.com
07-23-2003, 07:46 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
TScott,
The issue with lead bullets was also something I was aware of because of the H&K USP .45 I used to own. Something about how the polygonal rifling doesn' t grip the bullet hard enough to force it to spin right away, which causes lead buildup right ahead of a chambered bullet. This buildup then causes the overpressure in the cartridge when fired and the inevitable " Ka-boom" .
Speaking of aftermarket barrels, I was lookin at the CorBon website and discovered the 400 CorBon conversion. For the Glock 21 all that is required is a barrel change to fire the necked down .45ACP rounds. What I wonder about is the stipulation in the Iowa game regs that require pistols to use straight-walled ammo.
Thanks for the links to the Glock websites.
Mike
The issue with lead bullets was also something I was aware of because of the H&K USP .45 I used to own. Something about how the polygonal rifling doesn' t grip the bullet hard enough to force it to spin right away, which causes lead buildup right ahead of a chambered bullet. This buildup then causes the overpressure in the cartridge when fired and the inevitable " Ka-boom" .
Speaking of aftermarket barrels, I was lookin at the CorBon website and discovered the 400 CorBon conversion. For the Glock 21 all that is required is a barrel change to fire the necked down .45ACP rounds. What I wonder about is the stipulation in the Iowa game regs that require pistols to use straight-walled ammo.
Thanks for the links to the Glock websites.
Mike
07-23-2003, 11:13 PM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW Georgia, USA
Posts: 114
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
TScottW99,
There are plenty of articles and pictures of blown up Glocks on the Internet in .45 caliber due to the unsupported chamber s in these barrels. I have both a Glock 21 and 30 and looking at the fired +P cases - quite frankly, it scared the crap out of me. I called Glock and they told me not to shoot +P ammo in them. Georgia Arms even goes so far as to put a sticker on their +P .45 ammo that says " These cartridges are not warranted for use in firearms with unsupported chambers or firearms which will fire out of battery." That is a nice way of saying " Glock" .
If you don' t believe that Glock' s go Kaboom with factory ammo - you should check out this page:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sport...glock-dir.html
9mm is another story. I am not aware of ANY Kabooms with 9mm Glocks. They use fully supported chambers and will handle plenty of +P and +P+ ammo.
If you really want to shoot +P or lead ammo in a Glock .45 Caliber, there are many good aftermarket barrels with fully supported chambers that will work great.
There are plenty of articles and pictures of blown up Glocks on the Internet in .45 caliber due to the unsupported chamber s in these barrels. I have both a Glock 21 and 30 and looking at the fired +P cases - quite frankly, it scared the crap out of me. I called Glock and they told me not to shoot +P ammo in them. Georgia Arms even goes so far as to put a sticker on their +P .45 ammo that says " These cartridges are not warranted for use in firearms with unsupported chambers or firearms which will fire out of battery." That is a nice way of saying " Glock" .
If you don' t believe that Glock' s go Kaboom with factory ammo - you should check out this page:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sport...glock-dir.html
9mm is another story. I am not aware of ANY Kabooms with 9mm Glocks. They use fully supported chambers and will handle plenty of +P and +P+ ammo.
If you really want to shoot +P or lead ammo in a Glock .45 Caliber, there are many good aftermarket barrels with fully supported chambers that will work great.
07-24-2003, 06:38 AM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salem VA Salem, VA
Posts: 753
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
I know Dean' s page well. Been there several times. If you don' t feel comfortable shooting it then don' t.
" KaBooms" can happen in ANY gun, not just Glocks. I' ve seen pictures also, of Ruger Redhawks, Beretta 92' s, Sig 229' s, 1911' s etc... all with " KB" ' s. Like I said before a " KB" can happen with factory loads due to a double charge or bullet setback. Recently a Police Department had three " KB" ' s in one day [
] shooting factory Federal ammo. I can' t figure out why they didn' t stop shooting after the second one......
I' ve never heard Glock say not to shoot +P' s but hey I really don' t talk to Glock alot
I will look around though, I just don' t see how it' s safe in a 9mm and not in a .45acp when the guns are designed the same. Not to mention the 10mm. Also the .357sig which is pretty much a 9mm+P+ bottlenecked.
As for the .400Corbon, Glockmeister also sales those.
" KaBooms" can happen in ANY gun, not just Glocks. I' ve seen pictures also, of Ruger Redhawks, Beretta 92' s, Sig 229' s, 1911' s etc... all with " KB" ' s. Like I said before a " KB" can happen with factory loads due to a double charge or bullet setback. Recently a Police Department had three " KB" ' s in one day [
] shooting factory Federal ammo. I can' t figure out why they didn' t stop shooting after the second one......I' ve never heard Glock say not to shoot +P' s but hey I really don' t talk to Glock alot
I will look around though, I just don' t see how it' s safe in a 9mm and not in a .45acp when the guns are designed the same. Not to mention the 10mm. Also the .357sig which is pretty much a 9mm+P+ bottlenecked.As for the .400Corbon, Glockmeister also sales those.
07-24-2003, 08:48 AM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW Georgia, USA
Posts: 114
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
If you take your Glock apart you will be surprised to see how much of the chamber is unsupported in the .45 ACP vs 9mm. The 9mm Glock chamberings are fully supported. That would account for the difference.
I understand that KBs can happen in all pistols. I do think Glock seems to have more REPORTED. I am not a Glock basher in the least, as I have owned quite a few of them and still own 2. However, I am very cautious with what ammo I feed them.
I understand that KBs can happen in all pistols. I do think Glock seems to have more REPORTED. I am not a Glock basher in the least, as I have owned quite a few of them and still own 2. However, I am very cautious with what ammo I feed them.
07-24-2003, 11:27 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salem VA Salem, VA
Posts: 753
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
Well I just got off the phone with Glock and spoke to Steve. He stated that for warranty purposes the ammo you shoot must meet Nato and or SAMMI specs and +P and +P+ do not met those specs. I was asking in regards to the #21 and he stated that this was with all models.
They don' t advise against it, but say it can void your warranty if you are shooting it.......
They don' t advise against it, but say it can void your warranty if you are shooting it.......
07-26-2003, 01:11 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
HANDGUNS (Deer Seasons Only): There
is no special season for hunting deer with a
handgun. Black powder handguns shooting a
single projectile .44 caliber or larger, and
centerfire handguns .357 caliber or larger,
shooting straight-wall ammunition and propelling
an expanding-type bullet (no full metal jacket),
are legal during the Disabled Hunter, Shotgun 1,
Shotgun 2, Late Muzzleloader and Special Late
seasons. Black powder handguns as described
above are also legal during the Early
Muzzleloader Season. The minimum barrel
length is 4 inches for pistols, revolvers and
blackpowder handguns. Handguns may not be
used to hunt turkeys.
Hunters 16 years old or younger may not
hunt deer with a handgun. Hunters 17 through
20 years old must be accompanied by a parent,
guardian or spouse who is at least 21 years old.
Hunters lawfully engaged in hunting do not need
a concealed weapons permit while in the field.
Only the following centerfire handguns may
be used to hunt deer: .357 Magnum, .357
Maximum, .375 Winchester, .38 Super, .40
S&W, .401 Powermag, 10 mm Auto, .41 S&W
Magnum, .41 Action Express, .44 S&W Special,
.44 S&W Magnum, .44 Automag, .444 Marlin,
.45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45
Silhouette, .451 Detonics, .454 Casull, .45-70
Govt., .475 Widley Magnum, .475 Linebaugh,
.50 Action Express, .50 Linebaugh.
is no special season for hunting deer with a
handgun. Black powder handguns shooting a
single projectile .44 caliber or larger, and
centerfire handguns .357 caliber or larger,
shooting straight-wall ammunition and propelling
an expanding-type bullet (no full metal jacket),
are legal during the Disabled Hunter, Shotgun 1,
Shotgun 2, Late Muzzleloader and Special Late
seasons. Black powder handguns as described
above are also legal during the Early
Muzzleloader Season. The minimum barrel
length is 4 inches for pistols, revolvers and
blackpowder handguns. Handguns may not be
used to hunt turkeys.
Hunters 16 years old or younger may not
hunt deer with a handgun. Hunters 17 through
20 years old must be accompanied by a parent,
guardian or spouse who is at least 21 years old.
Hunters lawfully engaged in hunting do not need
a concealed weapons permit while in the field.
Only the following centerfire handguns may
be used to hunt deer: .357 Magnum, .357
Maximum, .375 Winchester, .38 Super, .40
S&W, .401 Powermag, 10 mm Auto, .41 S&W
Magnum, .41 Action Express, .44 S&W Special,
.44 S&W Magnum, .44 Automag, .444 Marlin,
.45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45
Silhouette, .451 Detonics, .454 Casull, .45-70
Govt., .475 Widley Magnum, .475 Linebaugh,
.50 Action Express, .50 Linebaugh.
Mike
07-27-2003, 06:01 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
RE: Wife bought me a Glock 21! Backup deer gun?
As far as the exact definition of +P and +P+ I' m not sure. I do know that there are only certain specific cartridges that can have the " +P" designator. I know for sure that .45ACP, 9mm Parabellum, and .38 Special all can have the " +P" designator. I also know for sure that, according to the SAMMI guidelines, .40S&W can NOT be loaded to " +P" as it' s already a high pressure cartridge, so if you see a box of .40S&W labeled " +P" they are just doing it for marketing purposes.
Basically, the " +P" designates that the cartridge is loaded right up to the maximun allowable SAMMI pressure. The " +P+" isn' t actually a SAAMI term, but actually denotes that the cartridge is loaded hotter than the SAMMI pressure spec. From the reading I' ve done it seems the cartridge most commonly loaded to " +P+" is the 9mm Parabellum, and that most NATO spec and a lot of LEO 9mm is +P+. Somebody likely realized that the SAMMI pressure specs for 9mm Para. was too conservative in modern guns, or they are nuts enough to push the SAMMI envelope.
During my research I' ve also discovered that +P really isn' t all that necessary for the .45ACP, as the gains from the marginal increase in velocity are offset by the sizable increase in recoil and muzzleblast, and the higher velocity could cause the bullet to expand too rapidly and reduce penetration. According to many opinions, the heavy fat .45 bullets just don' t need the speed that the smaller, lighter .357 caliber bullets of the 9mm and .38sp. I think I' m going to just go with the premium standard pressure JHPs. There is also several months to the Late ML/handgun season, and I might just decide to save a little cash and buy a .357Mag revolver. I' ve been wanting to get a centerfire revolver for awhile anyway.
Mike
Basically, the " +P" designates that the cartridge is loaded right up to the maximun allowable SAMMI pressure. The " +P+" isn' t actually a SAAMI term, but actually denotes that the cartridge is loaded hotter than the SAMMI pressure spec. From the reading I' ve done it seems the cartridge most commonly loaded to " +P+" is the 9mm Parabellum, and that most NATO spec and a lot of LEO 9mm is +P+. Somebody likely realized that the SAMMI pressure specs for 9mm Para. was too conservative in modern guns, or they are nuts enough to push the SAMMI envelope.
During my research I' ve also discovered that +P really isn' t all that necessary for the .45ACP, as the gains from the marginal increase in velocity are offset by the sizable increase in recoil and muzzleblast, and the higher velocity could cause the bullet to expand too rapidly and reduce penetration. According to many opinions, the heavy fat .45 bullets just don' t need the speed that the smaller, lighter .357 caliber bullets of the 9mm and .38sp. I think I' m going to just go with the premium standard pressure JHPs. There is also several months to the Late ML/handgun season, and I might just decide to save a little cash and buy a .357Mag revolver. I' ve been wanting to get a centerfire revolver for awhile anyway.
Mike