Remington: CNBC Special
10-21-2010, 08:25 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,329
I just watched the videos and also went to you-tube to see if there were anymore. Remington apparently has answered with several anti campaigns.
I know someone that had a factory Rem 700 rifle that fired when the safety was switched off. It shot a hole right through the roof of his blind. They sent it back to Remington and they sent him a new rifle.
More than that I do not know.
Tom
I know someone that had a factory Rem 700 rifle that fired when the safety was switched off. It shot a hole right through the roof of his blind. They sent it back to Remington and they sent him a new rifle.
More than that I do not know.
Tom
10-21-2010, 08:36 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,329
Also found this in a thread on the fire:
Missed the television spot expecting it to be a typical left wing hit piece. Unfortunately, it seems to me that one only needs to read Remington's own internal memos to confirm that some rifles will indeed fire w/o the trigger being pulled. No shade tree gunsmithing required. Over the years Remington was able to reproduce the problem but their own legal seemed to recommended against a recall since it would cost more than potential liabilities. Then, one generation of management passed the buck to the next trying to handle things quietly and avoid opening Pandora's box. Along the way reputable users to include the Marines and SWAT types documented the issue. Heck, even Consumer Reports did during a rifle comparison test back in '68 and encountered the issue! All this mess because Remington didn't want to raise production costs by $0.05 back in '48 since the project was $4,000 over budget. Disappointing.
Tom
Missed the television spot expecting it to be a typical left wing hit piece. Unfortunately, it seems to me that one only needs to read Remington's own internal memos to confirm that some rifles will indeed fire w/o the trigger being pulled. No shade tree gunsmithing required. Over the years Remington was able to reproduce the problem but their own legal seemed to recommended against a recall since it would cost more than potential liabilities. Then, one generation of management passed the buck to the next trying to handle things quietly and avoid opening Pandora's box. Along the way reputable users to include the Marines and SWAT types documented the issue. Heck, even Consumer Reports did during a rifle comparison test back in '68 and encountered the issue! All this mess because Remington didn't want to raise production costs by $0.05 back in '48 since the project was $4,000 over budget. Disappointing.
Tom
10-21-2010, 09:56 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: West NE
Posts: 1,455
10-21-2010, 10:52 AM
#15
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,033
yeah, timing is bad. They said there was an IPO being contemplated... The special will drive the price way down. They said the X Mark Pro trigger was basically the same design that the original designer proposed as a fix all the way back in 1948... I've got one with the old style safety, two with the safety that allows you to operate the bolt while on safe, and one with the X Mark.
10-21-2010, 11:50 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,329
Here is some more info that I've found:
Defective Design of the Remington Model 700 Rifle
The Model 700 rifle suffers from a serious design defect, sometimes compounded by manufacturing defects that causes the rifle to fire without pulling the trigger. The source of the defect is an internal component in the trigger mechanism called the "trigger connector." The trigger connector is what allows the gun to fire once the trigger has been pulled. This system is known as the Walker Fire Control System and Remington is the only gun manufacturer in the world to use it.
The problem with the trigger connector is that the resiliently mounted trigger connector is not bound to the actual trigger. This means that when the trigger is pulled and the gun is fired, a gap is created between the trigger body and the connector. Dirt, debris, dried lubricant and other material then can become lodged in this gap, preventing the trigger connector from returning to a secure and reliable position after the gun is fired. This, in turn, can permit the fire control to malfunction to produce a discharge when the trigger is not pulled.
The three most common scenarios for the fire control to malfunction are:
- When the user moves the safety switch from the "safe" mode to the "fire" mode
- When the user loads a new round into the breech (Fire closing the bolt)
- When the user cycles the bolt to eject a spent casing (Fire opening the bolt)
Internal company documents revealed that Remington has known about the defective conditions since at least 1979 and documents discussing the Walker Fire Control System when it was first designed in the 1940s signal the company's knowledge of the dangers even then. The company even created a Product Safety Subcommittee to evaluate the M700 and the mountain of consumer complaints Remington had received about the gun. However, Remington made a decision at that time not to recall the rifle because the defect was estimated only to affect 1 percent of the two million M700s that had been sold up until that time. The company decided it was too costly to recall two million rifles "just" to find the 20,000 which would manifest the defect. However, while a statistical analysis suggested only 1 percent would experience a malfunction, all the center fire rifles Remington has produced since March of 1948, with the exception of the Model 788, have the same design and are all susceptible to these forms of malfunction.
Despite its knowledge of the defect, Remington did not stop using the Walker Fire Control System in its bolt action rifles until 2007, even though the company had developed a safer alternative to the trigger connector as early as 1997. When Remington considered a new rifle, the Model 710 in the late 1990s, Remington also had designed a new fire control system that did not include trigger connectors. However, after the gun manufacturer discovered how expensive it was going to be to produce the new rifle with the new trigger mechanism, Remington decided to continue using the old Walker system in the new rifle, despite knowing the inherent dangers the trigger connector posed to consumers.
Defective Design of the Remington Model 700 Rifle
The Model 700 rifle suffers from a serious design defect, sometimes compounded by manufacturing defects that causes the rifle to fire without pulling the trigger. The source of the defect is an internal component in the trigger mechanism called the "trigger connector." The trigger connector is what allows the gun to fire once the trigger has been pulled. This system is known as the Walker Fire Control System and Remington is the only gun manufacturer in the world to use it.
The problem with the trigger connector is that the resiliently mounted trigger connector is not bound to the actual trigger. This means that when the trigger is pulled and the gun is fired, a gap is created between the trigger body and the connector. Dirt, debris, dried lubricant and other material then can become lodged in this gap, preventing the trigger connector from returning to a secure and reliable position after the gun is fired. This, in turn, can permit the fire control to malfunction to produce a discharge when the trigger is not pulled.
The three most common scenarios for the fire control to malfunction are:
- When the user moves the safety switch from the "safe" mode to the "fire" mode
- When the user loads a new round into the breech (Fire closing the bolt)
- When the user cycles the bolt to eject a spent casing (Fire opening the bolt)
Internal company documents revealed that Remington has known about the defective conditions since at least 1979 and documents discussing the Walker Fire Control System when it was first designed in the 1940s signal the company's knowledge of the dangers even then. The company even created a Product Safety Subcommittee to evaluate the M700 and the mountain of consumer complaints Remington had received about the gun. However, Remington made a decision at that time not to recall the rifle because the defect was estimated only to affect 1 percent of the two million M700s that had been sold up until that time. The company decided it was too costly to recall two million rifles "just" to find the 20,000 which would manifest the defect. However, while a statistical analysis suggested only 1 percent would experience a malfunction, all the center fire rifles Remington has produced since March of 1948, with the exception of the Model 788, have the same design and are all susceptible to these forms of malfunction.
Despite its knowledge of the defect, Remington did not stop using the Walker Fire Control System in its bolt action rifles until 2007, even though the company had developed a safer alternative to the trigger connector as early as 1997. When Remington considered a new rifle, the Model 710 in the late 1990s, Remington also had designed a new fire control system that did not include trigger connectors. However, after the gun manufacturer discovered how expensive it was going to be to produce the new rifle with the new trigger mechanism, Remington decided to continue using the old Walker system in the new rifle, despite knowing the inherent dangers the trigger connector posed to consumers.
10-22-2010, 05:18 AM
#19
Fork Horn
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 304
I have two 700's right now, a BDL in 06 and an SSL in .300 Win Mag and they both work perfectly. The ADL's and BDL's i've owned in the past also seemed totally safe and shot well, but then I've always used them as set up from the factory without any trigger modifications. The trigger pull on the two I've got might be a little heavy, but they are both easy to shoot well and the bolts and safeties feel solid and seem to be working as they should. I always have the gun pointing down range when chambering another round or releasing the safety so I know I'll not be putting a hole thru a trailer or another person. I've always been a Remington fan so this is a little disconcerting and sadly, will give the anti 700 group more to crow about--bummer for Remington------------John
10-22-2010, 06:04 AM
#20
Fork Horn
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 304
While we are on this subject, I'm also a little put out with Ruger due to the number one is another all time favorite of mine and once again, out of the four that I've owned, one of them had a glazing of some kind in the mouth of the chamber making the extraction of the case difficult--[ a problem corrected by a local gunsmith]. My point is, the 700's and the Ruger no 1's retail from at least $700 to $800 or more and are both from big supposidly reputable American manufacturers and there is no reason for a safety concern on the Remingtons and whole pages on the shooting forums devoted to how to alter the fore end on some of the Ruger #1's to make them shoot right---my Browning High Wall,45-70, and my Browning A-Bolt Medallian,.204, [both made in Japan], are beautifully made and function perfectly---What's going on here? ------John
