RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Okay, having answered the first part of the question.....(250-350 additional foot pounds)....now explain to me.....WHAT are you going to do with it? I can generate 250 to 350 foot pounds of energy by pushing on a wall....all of which goes to prove????????

It is not a required function (the minimal amount of additional energy) to effect a " clean kill" on whitetail deer. Using an icepick I could kill a person with just several foot pounds of energy! So my question remains....In the " real world" show me the difference?!?

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Get the 30-30. It has killed more deer than any other gun out there.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Like thats even a valid arguement. Firstly I would venture to say that some variant or a 22 rimfire can be credited with the most kills followed closely by a shotgun using bucksot. We all know that a 22 rimfire is no deer rifle and buckshot has been outlawed in many states. In addition it stands to reason that more deer have been wounded with the 30-30 than any other cartridge.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

model 94 winchester 30-30. never let me down, and ive never been skunked. allways a clean kill so far. i find it a better bush gun than a feild gun though.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I have killed more Deer with my Marlin 336 30-30 than with any other weapon. If had to give them all up but one, this would be the one I would keep.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Friz. Iv' e seen ten times as many deer wounded by 243' s than all other calibers combined and I was a hunting guide for about 12 years. I have seen quite a few deer missed with a 30-30 but not many hit and wounded.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Frizz,

Let me be blunt about this.....are you saying the problem with the use of the .30-30 is the fault of the cartridge? Or the user? They are not one and the same! So let' s first make sure we understand which YOU believe is the problem.

Do you believe the .44 Rem Mag is sufficient to cleanly kill a deer? And if so to what range, (or more importantly at what range does it CEASE to be an effective killer of whitetail deer)?

Exactly what cartridge do you consider to be a minimum for cleanly killing whitetail deer? (And at what range does it cease to be effective?) What is YOUR cartridge for cleanly killing whitetails? Do you have a range limitation? And with what load? Is that also effective on extremely windy days, or not? And would that be whitetails typical of those found in Florida or Maine...for instance. (A 120 pound whitetail or a 250 pound whitetail?)

You are right about at least one assertion. Any cartridge that has been used to a great degree to kill game will also by sheer fact of numbers be involved in more woundings than a cartridge that is little used. And yes a cartridge with extra energy can turn a marginal hit into an effective killing shot. (But the down side of that argument can be equally stated as a heavier recoiling rifle may well lead to more marginal hits to begin with. See how easy it is to twist any argument to suit your " purpose" !) But the fact of the matter is that the fault is in its' use.....not in its' ballistics. If we were to believe that the .30-30 does not have sufficient energy to cleanly kill whitetails...how would you explain the large numbers of whitetails killed with relatively small bore black powder rifles used in the early years of the colonies? These rifles produce energy levels (as measured in foot pounds) that don' t even measure up to most modern handgun rounds, especially as you move further from the muzzle...(inefficient round balls)!

I stick to my original assertion. The .30-30 and all of it' s peers are sufficient in the hands of a responsible user.....and nothing is sufficient if you are not responsible! If you have had many negative experiences with the .30-30 on whitetails....yes I question your responsibility!

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Here is my clarified opinion of the 30-30 Win. Firstly it is an anemic cartridge as a factory loading. That is a given. It cannot be improved upon very much by handloading because of the weak case. That is another given. Most people buy a 30-30 rifle for the wrong reason. Either some pimple faced kid at Wal Mart says it has " killed more deer than any other cartridge" or " it will shoot right through brush" , they buy it because it is cheap, or they get it because Grandpa had one. At any rate most people who buy them give no thought whatsoever to ballistics, performance and the game they are hunting. So now we have an uneducated hunter using an inferior tool. I don' t see why anyone in their right mind would ever recommend a 30-30 for anything nor a 44 Rem Mag rifle for that matter unless they made it clear to specify short range shots. I used to live in a hunting club. I spent 10 years tracking wounded deer. The two cartridges the wounded the most deer hands down were the 30-30 Win shot at anything over 100 yards and the 223 Rem at any range. Most were good hits too. So yes I have a strong dislike for the cartridge, and yes I have used one and taken deer with it. However, with so many better choices out there the only thing I use mine for now is a doorstop.

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

Okay, now we have some points that we agree on. You are correct that many times the .30-30 is selected for all of the wrong reasons...(ie. Grandpa used one, it' s cheap, and/or it was recommended by someone with little or no experience with it, or any other cartridges' use). You are also correct when you say it can be a terrible wounder when misused! And in comparison to even the aged .30-06 for instance.....it is rather " anemic" . I could not agree with you more when you say that many of its' users are neither educated about ballistics, and could care less. And when you take all of this into consideration it has drastic potential for misuse!

Now let me say where we do not see eye to eye. Some hunters, (that may be very knowledgeable), make a conscious decision to use a tool, (and that is all that any firearm is), that requires the hunter to place limitations. If that were not true we could simply throw out all bows, handguns, and muzzleloaders. Some of us do not enter the woods with our " ONLY" goal being.....to be able to kill our intended game with the most efficient tool for the purpose. We intentionally decide to add a " handicap" to increase the challenge. If you do not have the discipline to turn down an " iffy" shot....then don' t challenge yourself in that manner. But the truth of the matter is that no matter what weapon you choose to use....it has limitations. And if you knowingly exceed those limitations when shooting at live game animals....YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE! There is no other nice way of saying it. If you can not be ethical....stay out of the field and woods.

You are also right about SLOBS. (Now I know that sometimes inexperience is a factor.) But once again....those are the same people that do " STUPID" things regardless of the tools they are using. One of the most difficult tasks I find myself up against all of the time is trying to convince an uneducated (read that ignorant) person that guns are not BAD things. But that they are capable of being used for BAD things when in the hands of BAD people. Let us not fall into the trap of blaming the " OBJECT" when it is the responsibility of the object' s USER!

I have killed two deer that some moron(s), (probably during Pennsylvania' s squirrel season), had shot with a .22 rimfire. Now I could say that all .22 rimfires are terrible tools and not fit for their intended purpose. But I won' t! What I will say is when you put a tool into the hands of foolish people...sometimes foolish things occur! Let' s not misplace where the real fault is!!!

P.S. One other thing we agree on....in hands of an average user I don' t consider the .223 an effective whitetail cartridge. (Yes I know it works.....but under field conditions it is NOT a good choice.)

RE: 30-30 for deer
 

I can attest to people behind the sporting goods counter not knowing what they are talkiing about ( at least this time)..... My very first rifle was a Marlin 336 .30-30. I went to a local store having a sale on them ( You had a choice between the .30-30 or the .35 rem same money) I was new to the game so I asked the man behind the counter what the difference was ... not much was the answer but the .35 rem shells are more expensive so I left there with the .30-30. I have a .30-30 again but I only use it for certain situations