Guns Like firearms themselves, there’s a wide variety of opinions on what’s the best gun.

Barrel Length vs Accuracy

Reply

Old 03-04-2010, 03:05 PM
  #21  
Nontypical Buck
 
SwampCollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Where the ducks don't come no more
Posts: 4,420
Default

Originally Posted by podunk kennels View Post
So in theory if you had a long barrel that was also stiff then you would get more spin and less barrel whip? Is there an even medium?

Always.

The rag you hear about longer barrels having higher velocities is true only to a point. There is a length at which those returns start diminishing. I don't pretend to know exactly what it is for every caliber, but I would level a fair bet that in the case of your short action centerfires its somewhere around 22"... standards 24" and magnums 26".... that would be why they come in those lengths.

Course there are exceptions to that. You can load a round to burn faster or slower to match your barrel length.

The spin doesn't really have but so much to do with barrel length because its just a ratio. Most modern muzzleloaders have a 1:28" twist, and several of them have barrels shorter than 28". It all depends on what grain bullet you are going to be shooting. Old school muzzleloaders often had 1:48" or even slower twists... a shorter projectile requires far less spin to stabilize. Back in the day of round balls or conical/mini-balls.... you didn't need much at all... they were solid lead... heavy and short. Welcome to the world of copper solid sabots... takes more copper (volume wise) to get to 300gr than it does lead. Can't go but so far out in diameter... so you gotta go longer. And now we have smokepoles with 1:28" twists.

On the opposite side of things... a heavier, smaller caliber bullet (such as an 80gr .223 bullet) will need a very quick twist, like 1:7" or 1:8" to keep from tumbling its way down range. Just like cartridges have their optimum barrel length, bullets at a given weight will have their optimum twist ratio. For a military/tactical .308 which shoots 168gr bullets (I think)... its something like 1:9.7". Y'all correct me if I'm wrong.




Here is my take on the whole 'why' tacitcal rifles have shorter barrels and target and varmint guns have longer ones:

Tactical situations are often in tight quarters, or around vehicals, where a longer barrel would be cumbersome and unweildy.

If any of you shoot archery, you'll likely know that (if not why) a longer stabilizer on your bow will help you hold more steady than a shorter one. Suffice to say that longer is more stabile (the guy at the circus on the high wire doesn't carry a pool cue in his hands after all.... he carrys a 30 foot pole). In archery, a longer stabilizer with weight on the very end minimizes the leverage effect that an archer has on the bow... simply put, it is more diffcult to move the thing at full draw. This means that if you have a little bit of movement about the time of the shot... the effect is minimized.

I believe that the same is true for rifles. Longer, heavier. It isn't really that one barrel length is more accurate than another (within reason of course) it probably has more to do with a longer barrel being more stable... which helps YOU shoot better. Hence the whole thought process behind longer barrels being more accurate... because most folks are more accurate with them. Your high dollar bench rest rifles and all that jazz....

My experience.... stiffer barrels shoot better.... bull barrels...and in my experience... shorter ones. I'm a hunter. Period. Shooting targets is a means to an end.

Last edited by SwampCollie; 03-04-2010 at 03:09 PM.
SwampCollie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 04:26 PM
  #22  
Giant Nontypical
 
Sheridan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 5,130
Default

Okay, I know these guys don't know nothin' either relentless....................that is BC.


http://www.ultimatesniper.com/Docs/46.PDF


When you consult an ammo manufacturer's rifle ballistic tables, you're actually
looking at the velocity when fired through a 24-inch barrel.


Maybe you prefer;

http://www.millettsights.com/resourc...sion-shooters/
\

Here's some more, but only for precision shooters;

The Final Step — Confirmation Firing
You have now prepared a precise ballistic data card, containing all your target knob settings. This is excellent but it's also THEORETICAL. The ballistic software that generates trajectory data is driven by certain standards, prepared by SAAMI, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute. These assume: a rifle having a 24-inch barrel; a scope mounted 1-1/2 inches above the bore; a shot fired in an ambient temperature of 59 degrees Fahrenheit; and, fired at sea level. To the degree that your rifle and scope and shooting environment differ from these standards, you will experience slightly different results.



You are living in YOUR OWN WORLD, no one else matters, huh !


Oh yea...........................one more thing;

"I have seen you post some silly crap on here. And really silly crap on the optics forum, but this one is your silliest."

Last edited by Sheridan; 03-04-2010 at 04:48 PM.
Sheridan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 04:49 PM
  #23  
Boone & Crockett
 
bigbulls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
Default

No, this is incorrect to a point. Many, I mean many tests has been done with snubs and I have yet to seen any that can keep up with my performance center 460.

But I will make you a challenge to compete with mine. We can even put money on it.

I get 2.5MOA performance at 200 yards.

Bulls, the bullet has to stabilize. It has to impart spin enough to stabilize, and a 1/4 won't do that. I guantee you.
Did you read what I typed?

Also take into account the burn rate of the powder. If firing from a 2" barrel the burn rate will need to be faster in order to get equally consistent velocities as you would from a longer barrel with a slower burning powder. If you were to simply fire a cartridge that was developed for use in a 16" barrel carbine out of a 2" barrel the velocity spreads would be extreme to say the least.


There are a host of other factors that will come into play but assuming that the barrel length is sufficient to completely burn the available powder, and all other factors equal, the shorter barrel should be the ore accurate barrel.
The .460 isn't designed to be shot out of a 2" barrel. The velocity spreads from doing such would be all over the charts. There is far too much slow burning powder packed into that case to make it an accurate short barrel cartridge. Yes, there are 2" barrel 460's but the intent of these firearms is that of defense rather than accuracy. It would be like firing a 7mmSTW out of a 14" Encore with a bunch of R25 stuffed in the case. It isn't going to work very well.

But concerning your bet if you were to completely take away the human element and lock two 38 specials or 45 colts with 2" and 8" barrels in a ransom rest you would be surprised at the results. A bullet only requires about 1-2 inches of barrel to become stable. Barrel length has absolutely nothing to do with a bullet being stable other than generating enough velocity for a given twist rate and bullet length.


BTW, I think he was saying that the vast majority of factory published data, not reload data, is achieved through the use of a 24" long test barrel.

Last edited by bigbulls; 03-04-2010 at 06:32 PM.
bigbulls is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 05:23 PM
  #24  
Typical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: central florida
Posts: 857
Default

Have we found larrys long lost cousin?
podunk kennels is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 05:44 PM
  #25  
Nontypical Buck
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crosby TX USA
Posts: 2,599
Default

Originally Posted by mauser06 View Post
hmmm wonder how much it would cost to have 4-6" hacked off my barrel and recrowned...
Originally Posted by mauser06 View Post

26" heavy barrel on a 22-250 is HEAVY lol...but, i like the weight for shooting but hate the weight to carry....but really dont carry it much...so i may as well leave her alone....
I was quoted $75.00..


I currently have 2 .308's. One in a pistol with a ~13" barrel (savage striker) and 1 in a rem 700 sps varmint w/ a 26" barrel.

Accuracy at 100 yards can be as good on either gun depending on if I do my part. I've had the 26" job pinging steel at 500 yards recently.

If I keep the 700 it will be getting the barrel cut down to 22 or 23" or a custom barrel added. 26" has lost its fun factor for me.

I think I'm just going to unload it and start over. (which brings me to my current barrel length/ caliber / rate of twist conundrum)

On the remmy, I don't care for the bluing job. I would bet the Ruger has more of a rust preventative quality to it.

Good luck with your decision.

Since you are buying a .308, keep an eye on the rate of twist - the 1:12 seems common for tactical/ sniper wanta be stuff and the 1:10 seems common on hunting rifles. From what I gather the 1:10 should prefer heavier bullets?
DaveC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 06:59 PM
  #26  
Giant Nontypical
 
Sheridan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 5,130
Default

RR,

I responded to a post concerning a rifle’s barrel length.

All (or at less most) ballistics are published from using a 24" barrel.

I was attacked

BC stated: Is that right? How you figure? Boy, you come up with some wild stuff.

I was attacked again

BC stated: I have seen you post some silly crap on here. And really silly crap on the optics forum, but this one is your silliest.


I backed up my statement with this;

When you consult an ammo manufacturer's rifle ballistic tables, you're actually
looking at the velocity when fired through a 24-inch barrel.
Ultimate Sniper

The ballistic software that generates trajectory data is driven by certain standards, prepared by SAAMI, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute. These assume: a rifle having a 24-inch barrel;
Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute



So, because you guys have been shooting firearms for 50 years that makes you the ultimate authorities and also allows you to be belligerent !?!?

RR Stated: So there's your chance, come prove me wrong or keep the yap shut!

Have you guys been getting away with behaving like that your whole life?

Save that crap for someone who gets intimidated easily…..that ain’t me !!!
Sheridan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 08:05 PM
  #27  
Typical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: central florida
Posts: 857
Default

Well its been awhile since we had us a heated debate ( whens the last time relentless snuck on?) for the record while big country is very knowledgeable he is a little abrasive in his posts. I have the ability to look over tailholishness to see intelligent contribution. Earlier i asked an intelligent question in reloading and he attempted to make me look like a bass akwards bumpkin instead of providing useful input.
podunk kennels is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 07:18 AM
  #28  
Typical Buck
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 797
Default

Amazing on all the views on barrel length's. Can a snub nose be as acurrate as a 6" revolver likely but not feasable compared to sight radius mentioned before. 10 out of 10 times the longer pistol barrel will beat the snub nose if the same person is firing both firearms. Just common sense on that one.

For one i'm a believer in barrel length equals bullet stability especially in longer range shooting. I'll give you the stiffness and vibration point. For the most part there's just a certain amount of revolution that would be considered minimum twist. I suppose you can get any 18" rifle to shoot as well as a 26" rifle at 100-200 yds. The more times you spin that bullet inside the barrel the better the centrifical force will be as it's spinning down range. Slow that twist down and it is going to start losing stability especially in wind or longer ranges. Is it absolutely needed? By all means not at all. Most rifles 18" or longer have the capability to be 8" MOA at 500 meters with the correct loads. That gives you 3" for human error. 3" circle at 500 meters hmmm? I suppose I'm not that good yet, not if your talking doing it everytime.

If you missed the point of my subject it's this. Your rifle can out shoot you wether it's 18" or 30".

I do like gaining the extra fps of barrels over 24" You can without maxing out your loads and the pressures are also less than a maxed out load trying to obtain the same velocity in a shorter barreled rifle. In 2.64 to .308 calibers you gain about 35-40 fps per inch. 20" barrel vs 26" barrel at 500 yds is a 100% bonus to the 26" barrel for trajectory, fps, and added ft. lbs using the same exact ammo. Not needed but some prefer it like myself.

Size does matter. Lmao
Blackelk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 09:50 AM
  #29  
bigcountry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Originally Posted by podunk kennels View Post
Well its been awhile since we had us a heated debate ( whens the last time relentless snuck on?) for the record while big country is very knowledgeable he is a little abrasive in his posts. I have the ability to look over tailholishness to see intelligent contribution. Earlier i asked an intelligent question in reloading and he attempted to make me look like a bass akwards bumpkin instead of providing useful input.

Hey listen man, I was trying to help you. I have taught I bet 10 people or more how to reload. I have yet to see anyone but you, not understand that you have to set your seater up high and adjust down for OAL. I mean you might say it was intelligent, but all I can say is, your the first person not to understand how. In fact, every direction that comes with seater dies, explains in detail to setup the seater high and adjust down. Lets take a look.

Check out this lee pdf. Check out Step 9. I am not sure how more clear a manual could be for this. Fairly intuitive for even a child if you ask me.
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data...uct/CF1391.pdf

Ok, if thats not enough, lets look at RCBS
http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instru...structions.pdf
Check out step for "seating without Crimping" section. Extremely clear how to do it.

If thats not enough, check out speer reloading manual where they discuss dummy cases. Since you read thru 4 of them.

So again, I appoligize for trying to help you. But don't worry, it won't happen again. And I hope other knowledgable reloaders see this and take note.

I just don't get new reloaders today. I started reloading when there was no internet. All you had was a phone number to RCBS or Sierra. Or maybe you know a guy who knew a guy that reloads. You worked for the information. Now, new guys come on forums, and not just asks for the answer to be spoonfed to them but expects it instantly, and when someone doesn't give them the respect they feel they deserve, well then after someone helps them, they bad mouth em. Go figure. Tells the type of character you have.

So you don't have to worry about me ever giving you advise again. Maybe Sherdian can give you a good source for some bullistic cards.
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 09:57 AM
  #30  
bigcountry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Originally Posted by bigbulls View Post
Did you read what I typed?

The .460 isn't designed to be shot out of a 2" barrel. The velocity spreads from doing such would be all over the charts. There is far too much slow burning powder packed into that case to make it an accurate short barrel cartridge. Yes, there are 2" barrel 460's but the intent of these firearms is that of defense rather than accuracy. It would be like firing a 7mmSTW out of a 14" Encore with a bunch of R25 stuffed in the case. It isn't going to work very well.

But concerning your bet if you were to completely take away the human element and lock two 38 specials or 45 colts with 2" and 8" barrels in a ransom rest you would be surprised at the results. A bullet only requires about 1-2 inches of barrel to become stable. Barrel length has absolutely nothing to do with a bullet being stable other than generating enough velocity for a given twist rate and bullet length.


Ransom rest? Right up my alley. Ok, so lets take my 460 and shoot 45 colts thru it. And use a ransome rest. I am game.

Bulls, have you done tests to confirm that 1" is all it needs to impart spin and stability on a bullet? Please don't be offended when I ask what is your source of information on this. It just seems both of us are going by limited experiences and hunting shop conversatons. Possibly a good question for full time pistol shooters like Mike V or Brian Pearce from Wolfe publishing.
 
Reply With Quote

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service