6.5 Jap - 25 cal Jap
01-09-2010, 07:49 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,476
I'm also addicted to military rifles info ... bolt action is my main interest becasue of the connection to my gunsmith grandfather and the knowledge he imparted to me about 98's, the Arisaka's, Enfields (Brit and US), Mannlichers, ... on and on.
I'm much more of a shooter than a collector so my own military collection doesn't have any wildly rare or expensive examples. If I can't shoot it I won't own it. I've got a decent small collection of military, .. my own father has a much better collection and my 2 brothers each have a decent collection .. If we put them all together at one time it would be an awesome representation of the entire world's military bolts since the 1890's.
It's amazing how little the bolt action rifle has really changed in the last 120 years.
Except for metallurgy and tolerances possible on machines today there isn't a whole lot to show as a drastic change in the basic design of a good, strong, bolt action rifle. Ammo and optics are two different stories.
I'm much more of a shooter than a collector so my own military collection doesn't have any wildly rare or expensive examples. If I can't shoot it I won't own it. I've got a decent small collection of military, .. my own father has a much better collection and my 2 brothers each have a decent collection .. If we put them all together at one time it would be an awesome representation of the entire world's military bolts since the 1890's.
It's amazing how little the bolt action rifle has really changed in the last 120 years.
Except for metallurgy and tolerances possible on machines today there isn't a whole lot to show as a drastic change in the basic design of a good, strong, bolt action rifle. Ammo and optics are two different stories.
01-11-2010, 10:42 AM
#12
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 119
I've thoroughly searched the barrel and the only thing I see is "25 CAL JAP". Can't even find the original Japanese markings.
I'm sure that I used 6.5 Jap Norma ammo in it before, many years ago. I've researched the www & found mostly what's posted here...that they were commonly called 25 CAL JAP. Probably some gunsmith did the work & labeled it when it was sporterized (sporting sights, cut down forearm, etc.). If it were bored to the 257, I would think it would be labeled as such, vice 25 CAL JAP. If somone took the time to stamp it, I'd assume they would stamp it correctly. If it were bored to a different caliber, a gunsmith would have to have bored it out, so I would think he would have labeled it correctly.
I'm sure that I used 6.5 Jap Norma ammo in it before, many years ago. I've researched the www & found mostly what's posted here...that they were commonly called 25 CAL JAP. Probably some gunsmith did the work & labeled it when it was sporterized (sporting sights, cut down forearm, etc.). If it were bored to the 257, I would think it would be labeled as such, vice 25 CAL JAP. If somone took the time to stamp it, I'd assume they would stamp it correctly. If it were bored to a different caliber, a gunsmith would have to have bored it out, so I would think he would have labeled it correctly.
01-11-2010, 11:04 AM
#13
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rockingham Co, VA
Posts: 156
I've thoroughly searched the barrel and the only thing I see is "25 CAL JAP". Can't even find the original Japanese markings.
I'm sure that I used 6.5 Jap Norma ammo in it before, many years ago. I've researched the www & found mostly what's posted here...that they were commonly called 25 CAL JAP. Probably some gunsmith did the work & labeled it when it was sporterized (sporting sights, cut down forearm, etc.). If it were bored to the 257, I would think it would be labeled as such, vice 25 CAL JAP. If somone took the time to stamp it, I'd assume they would stamp it correctly. If it were bored to a different caliber, a gunsmith would have to have bored it out, so I would think he would have labeled it correctly.
I'm sure that I used 6.5 Jap Norma ammo in it before, many years ago. I've researched the www & found mostly what's posted here...that they were commonly called 25 CAL JAP. Probably some gunsmith did the work & labeled it when it was sporterized (sporting sights, cut down forearm, etc.). If it were bored to the 257, I would think it would be labeled as such, vice 25 CAL JAP. If somone took the time to stamp it, I'd assume they would stamp it correctly. If it were bored to a different caliber, a gunsmith would have to have bored it out, so I would think he would have labeled it correctly.
Anyway you look at it, you've got an interesting shooter
Last edited by popeye2; 01-11-2010 at 11:08 AM.
01-11-2010, 04:02 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,476
I don't know but I hope somebody can shed some light on it. It is obviously something that was commonly known for several folks here to know about something that took place over 60 years ago (and maybe even 80 years ago!)
My guess is that it is either because the .257 is so close to the .264 that folks didn't split hairs about the .007 difference. And guess what? If somebody went ahead and loaded Japanes brass with .257 bullets it would fire ok but would probably lack any appreciable accuracy. I doubt anything would happen beyond bad accuracy and possibly some keyholing.
The other possible reason for calling it the "25" Jap may have something to do with the somewhat popular wilcat I mentioned.
Since Japanese brass wasn't easy to obtain, gunsmiths would ream the Japanese chamber to the .257 Roberts dimensions, and then neck it open to 6.5, thereby creating the 6.5 X 257. The wildcat definitely had the .264 diameter because of the necking open, but maybe some confusion was related to .257 part of the wildcat name.
Not sure ... but would love to have somebody shed some light.
aharley1, I'm sure that if you shot factory Japanese 6.5 X 50 ammo in your gun that you don't have to worry about it .. but I agree that having a chamber cast made, or having a smith check it with go-no-go gauges would be the prudent thing to do.
I actually have an old Japanese model 44 that has been pretty badly chopped up. The throat is so eroded that it fires 6.5 X 54 ammo out of it and it keyholes badly after a couple shots due to the massive jump, eroded throat, and terribly worn barrel. I actually have a model 38 Arisaka barrel (long one) that was cut off to 20" and then a target recessed crown put on it. pretty nice job too. I always dreamed of having the newer barrel rechambered to 6.5 X 55 (I have a crap load of brass) and get it mounted. But alas, I dont' have money to burn.
Maybe someday.
My guess is that it is either because the .257 is so close to the .264 that folks didn't split hairs about the .007 difference. And guess what? If somebody went ahead and loaded Japanes brass with .257 bullets it would fire ok but would probably lack any appreciable accuracy. I doubt anything would happen beyond bad accuracy and possibly some keyholing.
The other possible reason for calling it the "25" Jap may have something to do with the somewhat popular wilcat I mentioned.
Since Japanese brass wasn't easy to obtain, gunsmiths would ream the Japanese chamber to the .257 Roberts dimensions, and then neck it open to 6.5, thereby creating the 6.5 X 257. The wildcat definitely had the .264 diameter because of the necking open, but maybe some confusion was related to .257 part of the wildcat name.
Not sure ... but would love to have somebody shed some light.
aharley1, I'm sure that if you shot factory Japanese 6.5 X 50 ammo in your gun that you don't have to worry about it .. but I agree that having a chamber cast made, or having a smith check it with go-no-go gauges would be the prudent thing to do.
I actually have an old Japanese model 44 that has been pretty badly chopped up. The throat is so eroded that it fires 6.5 X 54 ammo out of it and it keyholes badly after a couple shots due to the massive jump, eroded throat, and terribly worn barrel. I actually have a model 38 Arisaka barrel (long one) that was cut off to 20" and then a target recessed crown put on it. pretty nice job too. I always dreamed of having the newer barrel rechambered to 6.5 X 55 (I have a crap load of brass) and get it mounted. But alas, I dont' have money to burn.
Maybe someday.
01-11-2010, 04:37 PM
#16
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
In the NRA museum is a 6.5mm Japanese rifle that was re-chambered for .30-06. Yep, you read right: Someone ran a .30-06 reamer into the chamber. The owner fired the rifle and even killed a deer or two with it. He complained about the recoil to a gunsmith. The NRA test fired the gun and it held up well.
01-12-2010, 04:18 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,476
In the NRA museum is a 6.5mm Japanese rifle that was re-chambered for .30-06. Yep, you read right: Someone ran a .30-06 reamer into the chamber. The owner fired the rifle and even killed a deer or two with it. He complained about the recoil to a gunsmith. The NRA test fired the gun and it held up well.
I have read somewhere that P.O. Ackley did just that PURPOSELY and kept firing until he shot the barrel OFF the receiver, and the receiver was ok, cept for ruined threads ...
01-13-2010, 03:13 AM
#18
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 119
I bought a "new" box of Norma 6.5 Jap ammo yesterday. The box was older than the box I had already! Looked to be 30 years old! The box was faded and frayed!! Anyway, will use it for a back-up gun if I take someone else to my lease (my Son doesn't have a rifle & not sure he'd use one if I got him one). Anyway, plan to check the sights this weekend.
As for the 25 cal Jap, you can google 6.5 Jap or 25 cal Jap & get some info. seems it was fairly common to call them 25 Cal Jap back then.
As for the 25 cal Jap, you can google 6.5 Jap or 25 cal Jap & get some info. seems it was fairly common to call them 25 Cal Jap back then.
01-19-2010, 01:54 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,476