Thank's everyone for your replay's, They a greatly appreciated.

Today I shot a Remington 700 Bdl with a 20 inch stainless barrel in .243 caliber in 100 grain Remington ammo. This gun & caliber produced less kick & concussion (crack) then the 7mm-08 just as many of you said but for "me" it was still pretty loud. I would have to say it produced more of a "crack" then a 30-30 with 24" barrel and conventional 150 grain Federal ammo but the 30-30 kicked more. The 30-30 also had a 4 inch longer barrel so that may be why (as several mentioned) the short 20" barrel can cause blow back and make it louder.

Now some of you brought up the .257 Roberts as a gun that might work for me and that it's an old cartridge that doesn't produce the high pressures like some of the newer super high velocity cartridges. Would I be correct in assuming the 30-30 which is also an old cartridge first produced with smokless powder back in the late 1800's (30 grains) isn't a high pressure cartridge either?

I guess I'm not sure what to do now..... I think the .243 is out. I like Lever Action guns but browning only makes a BLR in a 20 inch barrel.

The other option someone mentioned is a In-Line Muzzle Loader. I never thought of that and I could use it in Ohio which doesn't allow rifles. There are also other special seasons that are muzzlelaoder only in PA, & Ohio. I have shot a 50 caliber TC Firestorm with 80 grains of BP but that's Flintlock. I would need to get an in-line, something that will always fire and be accurate with a scope out to 200-250 yard's. From my experience black powder under 90 grains dooesn't make the loud "crack" like high caliber rifles that can be so hard on the ears for some but rather a "boom" type of sound.

Any recommendations on an In-line (and a good scope) would be welcome along with any more info on the 257 roberts or any other gun someone feels would work for me. I'm interested in the 257 Bob but know anyone that has one to shoot. If it's less recoil and "crack" then a 30-30 I would probably want to get one but I find it hard to believe. I also would want to get a new gun rather then something used so I know exactly what I'm getting but there are always special exceptions.

Again, any info is greatly appreciated.

reply
 

Tom,

You bring up something interesting "Big Bore" rifles (45-70) gov't and the Cowboy cartriges.

I know next to nothing about these except I have held 45-70 ammo and it's HUGE but it has no "Crimp" in the brass. Maybe this is why a big bore doesn't produce a "Crack" when shot but a "Boom"?. I looked at the kick energy of this gun and it's up around 40lbs which is hefty more then a 30-06. I know Hornady makes their new "Leverevolution" ammo for the 45-70 gov't so it can shoot out to 200 yards as it use to be considered a 100 yard gun.

I'm not crazy about long barrel guns for deer hunting but it's beginning to look like I have no choice if I want to save my hearing. I know they make the new Marlin XLR SS in 45-70 gov't with a 24" barrel. Not sure on the Cowboy guns maybe you could give me some more info Tom? Can these guns shoot out to 200-250 yards and still kill a deer? Not sure if Hornady makes the plastic tip bullets for those and thought they are 100 yard max guns.

Still looking for more input from others before I purchase a gun for this season. It's not easy tak finding a deer gun to meet my needs I guess. I certainly can't be the only person with a significant hearing loss and a sensitivity to high caliber rifles...

Defender, the crimp on the bullet doesn't have anything to do with the "crack" you are hearing. It is the pressures at which the cartridges are operating and the velocity at which the bullet is leaving the barrel.

You are correct in assuming that a 30-30 is a low pressure cartridge and a .243 is a high pressure cartridge. Most of the cartridges produced for older rifles are of lower pressures. A .243 is operating at 60,000 psi where as the 30-30 is only operating at 42,000 psi. Any of the modern cartridges that operating at 60,000+ psi are going to have that sharp crack that is bothering you.

The Roberts will have a little more of a sharp crack than the 30-30 but the recoil should be a touch less.

A ML is an option but keep in mind that in order to get that heavy slug 200 yards you are going to have to load it pretty stoutly and recoil will likely become an issue. Recoil is going to be considerably greater with a modern in line that it would be when shooting a patched ball over 80 grains of BP. I think you would be much better off with a low pressure center fire cartridge.

Here is a list of some excellent low pressure cartridges that would work great to 200 yards and farther.
.257 Roberts - 52,000 psi
6.5x55 mauser - 51,000 psi
7x57 mauser - 51,000 psi
300 Savage - 47,000 psi
30-30 - 42,000 psi
35 Remington - 40,000 psi


Here is a list of some rifle manufacturers that chamber some of these rounds.
CZ 550 - 6.5x55 - 23.6" bbl
Ruger hawkeye - 257 Roberts - 22" bbl
Tikka hunter - 6.5x55 - 22.5" bbl
Marlin - 30-30 & 35 Remington - 20"-24" barrels

reply
 

Bigbulls,

Thanks for explaining about the bullet crimp and the PSI of different rifle cartridges. I found a table for rifle psi's and understand things a lot better now. It makes sense why guns like the .243, 6mm-08, 308, etc give the loud "crack" and concussion noise. It's all about the psi pressure in the bore of the gun when the bullet fires. I guess there are some other less important variables like barrel length and bullet weight but psi seems to make senese on the table.

Looking at the table here all the PSI pressures match up with yours except the .35 Rem. I have 33,500 psi.... I was thinking this might be a good gun for me since it's 8,500 less psi then a 30-30 (42,000 psi) which I can tolerate but it would be nice to shoot a gun with 20% less psi. It's a larger bullet shooting a lot more lead then a 30-30 but with the Leverevolution ammo it should work out to 200 yards. Gun recoil within reason isn't a big factor for me I'm a stalky, muscular guy it's the loud crack that gets me. I'm still not sure I get the cartridge crimp thing just seems like most of the high power cartridges have large crimps...

I see on the PSI table the 45-70 gov't only has 28,000 psi? How can that be with such a huge cartridge? It kinda seems like overkill for a deer but Hornady is making that in Leverevolutiona also.

I think I'm getting closer to what would work best for me. Can anyone tell me more about the .35 Rem compared to a 30-30? Would the .35 Rem produce less of a "crack" then the 30-30?

The only thing about the In-Line Muzzlelaoders is you get 1 shot... Kinda got use to the Lever guns after using them 30 years for deer.

Would a 45 Colt that only produces 14,000 psi kill a deer out at 200 yards. Something tells me no way and I don't think they make Leverevolution for those bullets I could be wrong.

Once again thanks to everyone. I think I'm getting real close to the gun I need. Please keep the info flowing, I really appreciate it.

PSI is part of what you call "crack", but it is not the total picture.

Yes a 45 Colt can easily kill deer at 200 yards.

In order to get away from what you want to get away from you will need to go long barrel, and big bore. If you do not like long barrels then you are **** out of luck, because long barrels are required to do what you want.

Go with a single shot like the Encore. You can go to a 26 inch or longer barrel, and the overall rifle length will be about the same.

Do not pay so much attention to the charts on recoil. Recoil is sharp and harsh or slow and pushy. The recoil from a 45-70 is more like a push and not a snap.

Do you reload??

Yes a 35 Remington would be great if you chambered it in a long barreled Encore.

A Marlin 1894 Cowboy model with the long 26 inch barrel in 44 magnum or 45 Colt would really do what you want if you want a repeater. Every bit as effective as a 30-30 and less "crack". And I do believe they make LeverEvolution ammo for the 44. Tom.

I forgot to mention one other thing that I have started doing...
An hour before last shooting light and the first hour of the day I wear a sonic ear plug in my left ear (the one closest to the muzzle)...I've been wanting to buy a Walker's Game Ear, it supresses the noise as well...This might be your cheapest option...Shoot what you have and put a Game Ear in the ear closest to the muzzle...

Sorry, just re-read your initial post, already tried...

That's what I get for watching MNF and posting... :)

Barrel length is the only other real factor. Bullet weight really isn't going to make any difference in noise. The crack really comes from how fast the gasses are escaping from the barrel as the bullet clears the crown.

The crimp is there for two reasons. The main reason is to keep the bullet from getting shoved back into the case when the gun recoils and the cartridges in the magazine get slammed around. The second reason is that when you fire a cartridge the crimp keeps the bullet from moving down the barrel until pressure builds behind it. With out a crimp a bullet begins to move as soon as the primer ignites. The crimp holds the bullet in place until a significant portion of the powder is also ignited and this usually keeps differences in velocity much lower that with out a crimp.

There are three levels of power for the 45-70. The 28,000 psi loads are made for the older rifles like the trap doors and generate very low velocity. Then you have laods taht are suitable for guns like the Marlin lever actions which create pressures in the 44,000 psi area. Then you have loads for rifles like the Ruger #1 and TC encore which are over 50,000 psi.

As far as the 45 colt goes... yes it is capable of killing at 200 yards but you are seriously streching it at that distance. Even the heaviest colt loadings are only going to get about 1400 fps with a 300 grain bullet fired from a rifle. 200 yards is a looooong shot with this round. Zeroed at 100 yards a 300 grain bullet fired at 1400 fps will be 25 inches low at 200 yards. It will have about 690 foot pounds of KE at 200 yards which is sufficient with proper bullets like a WFNGC hard cast.

The encore is a great rifle but even with a 26 inch barrel the muzzle isn't going to bbe any farther from your ear than a bolt gun with a 20" barrel. Keep in mind that there is no receiver on a single shot like there is on a bolt gun so you must subtract this length from the barrel length. Overall length for an encore with a 26" barrel is 40.5 inches. Overall length for a Remington model 7 with a 20 inch barrel is 39.25 inches so the noise is coming from the same distance from your ear.

The 35 Remington is an under rated cartridge and with proper bullets is perfectly capable hunting deer, elk and moose. Hornady loads a 200 grain bullet at about 2200 fps out of the Marlin XLR and if you want to go after the bigger animals like elk and moose Buffalo Bore loads a seriously hot load consisting of a 220 grain bullet at 2200 fps. from an 18.5" barrel. Out of the 24 inch barrel of the Marlin XLR it should be easily getting 2300-2400 fps. A 200 yard shot from either of these loads would be a piece of cake.

Defender,

I once read or heard that many states allow silencers, I was floored when I heard this, but it may be true, if so, that may be case solved with any cartridge...

Like others said in other words, that pressure change is what produces that crack once that bullet is out of the barrel and all that pressure behind the bullet is released, that crack happens, so releaving that pressure, or minimizing the pressure change amount will produce a quieter sound, which is what a silencer does, bleeds the pressure off until its very little, and produces a quieter sound.

Therefore a longer barrel in a same cartridge should produce a quieter sound, ie a .308 in a 20" barrel will produce a louder sound than a 26" barrel, it may be minimal but it'll be a difference none the less.

So the bigger the bore, longer the barrel, and less powder being burned is going to help produce a quieter sound, ie the .45-70 has a bore of .45....so the volume of a 20" barrel in .45 vs. a 20" barrel in .243, the .45 is going to have much more volume.

Someone suggest the .35remington....

Perhaps a .338 federal? which is just a .308 necked up to .338...or even a .308?

I'd consider a larger bored cartridge with a longer barrel I think to help bleed off some of that pressure if you could.

marlin may be making a longer barreled .30-30 these days, which was my first thought of a quieter lower pressure cartridge that could kill deer out to 200-300yds...

just did a quick google search for ya...

http://www.impactguns.com/store/silencers.html


Sound Suppressors and Silencers ALL NFA (National Firearms Act 1934) RULES APPLY!!!
To the best of our knowledge, silencers are legal for private ownership in the following states: AL, AR, AK, AZ, CO, CT, FL, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, ME, MD, MS, MT, NE, NV, NH, NM, NC, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WA, WV, WI, and WY. Additionally, they maybe owned by Class 3 dealers and Class 2 manufacturers (but not individuals) in: CA, IA, KS, MA, MO, and MI. Territorial law prohibits possession in the Territories and Possessions of the United States. There are no known restrictions on governmental ownership. If your state is not listed, check with your local office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms or your state's Attorney General. If they are not legal in your state of residence, we cannot sell to you. Please do not ask us to violate state or federal law.

Big Bulls you might want to take another look at the 45 Colt. I can push a 255 grain Keith style bullet out of a 45 Colt rifle at close to 1800 fps. And that is nothing to sneeze at. That is a 45 caliber hole(almost 1/2" before any expansion) at close to 1800 fps. Very deadly combination at 200 yards on a deer. Very deadly.

With a 150 yard zero and this combination load I am about 4 inches high at 100 and just under 10 inches low at 200 yards. And only 4 inches low at 175 yards. A 45 Colt rifle in the hands of a person who knows his firearm and cartridge is a very deadly combination. Please understand this is only in a modern firearm. However an Encore with a 28 inch barrel would really be able to push a 45 Colt cartridge. Especially since I am talking about cast bullets. At longer ranges a long barreled rifle shooting jacketed 45 Colt bullets would really be a dandy.

I also believe a longer barrel makes for a quieter rifle. I know my gallerly loads are considerably more quiet out of my 34 inch barrel Sharp's when compared to my 22" barreled Encore. Tom.

i know it might sound crazy, but i have seen air rifles that produce about the same power as a small cal rifle, and is in 22 or so, a 223 will drop deer here in texas like a rock, shot placement is everything no matter where u are. http://www.airgundepot.com/refurbish...-1150-fps.html


that is a refurbished 22 at 1150 fps, i dont have time , but i have seen better..gluk

and another at 1350..these are 177 but i seen 22 b4
http://www.airgundepot.com/refurbish...-1350-fps.html