home defense gun.
08-24-2009, 08:02 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 1,408
I know of plenty of ARs with feeding problems. I would NEVER rely on one for home defense, I'll take a Remington 12-gauge or my glock any day over them.
And as for the .223, rural or not, I hope there is nothing in any other room in your house you might not want to shoot through. Unless you load with frangible varmint bullets, that round will go through multiple walls without flinching. I would NEVER think of firing one in my house, with my kids sleeping in another room.
Pistols are good due to their manueverability and "lockability". Shotguns are good, but my home defense shotgun went back in the locked gunroom when my young daughter became mobile. I now have 2 pistols in a quickly accessible gun safe.
A shotgun with #4 buckshot is GREAT if you don't have issues with a kid getting ahold of it. Otherwise, stick to a pistol in a safe. I'm not a fan of rifles for home defense, in a typical home encounter what are they going to do that a pistol or shotgun won't? Typical range of what, 10 feet?
And as for the .223, rural or not, I hope there is nothing in any other room in your house you might not want to shoot through. Unless you load with frangible varmint bullets, that round will go through multiple walls without flinching. I would NEVER think of firing one in my house, with my kids sleeping in another room.
Pistols are good due to their manueverability and "lockability". Shotguns are good, but my home defense shotgun went back in the locked gunroom when my young daughter became mobile. I now have 2 pistols in a quickly accessible gun safe.
A shotgun with #4 buckshot is GREAT if you don't have issues with a kid getting ahold of it. Otherwise, stick to a pistol in a safe. I'm not a fan of rifles for home defense, in a typical home encounter what are they going to do that a pistol or shotgun won't? Typical range of what, 10 feet?
08-25-2009, 03:26 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sierra Nevadas., Ca
Posts: 1,050
Prices have come down quite a bit, and availability has gotten quite a bit better lately.
Why? I don't know of any organization out there that uses or recommends them over a quality semi auto.
Why would anyone want a pistol grip on a shotgun? Completely destroys any advantage of a shotgun.
Since when? Are our soldiers and law enforcement agencies going out with unreliable weapons? I think not.
Second I see no advantage to using a pistol cartridge in a rifle configuration....might as well use the pistol. Not to mention that the lever action has many deficincies when it comes to reloading.
Why? I don't know of any organization out there that uses or recommends them over a quality semi auto.
Why would anyone want a pistol grip on a shotgun? Completely destroys any advantage of a shotgun.
Since when? Are our soldiers and law enforcement agencies going out with unreliable weapons? I think not.
Second I see no advantage to using a pistol cartridge in a rifle configuration....might as well use the pistol. Not to mention that the lever action has many deficincies when it comes to reloading.
Well, as for cost and availability of AR's, they're still really hard to find. Especially if you're looking to get them anywhere near the cost of 2 years ago.
Lever actions have a history of reliability. Don't get me wrong, I love the AR. But side by side, strictly reliability wise, they are not as reliable as a good lever gun.
The pistol cartridge in a rifle has better FPS and Foot Lbs than the same cartridge in a pistol. Range is way better. If you have a rifle and pistol chambered for the same round, you have a medium range weapon, and a short range weapon. If we're talking home defense, that's all you'd need.
Reloading. You got me there. It does take much longer to reload a lever gun than switch magazines. And the capacity of a lever gun is less than most magazines. But again, in home defense, you probably are not gonna need that many rounds. 8 in the lever gun, 6 in the revolver. More than that, and you are in over your head and should be looking for an exit at that point. I don't think we're talking about a platoon level invasion here.
Pistol grip on a shotgun. Well, I guess it could be personal preference here, but I don't see how having one takes away from the advantages of having a shotgun. Pistol style grips allow for a more controlled handling of the weapon. But I'm sure some would prefer to not have one if that's what they're used to. Rifles didn't have one until they did. If we're gonna compare to the military and LE, then why would most of their weapons have pistol grips if they took away from the performance of the weapon? Not all LE shotguns have pistol grips, but in my area, they're moving that way more and more. With a pistol grip stock, most are shorter than a regular shotgun stock, especially those with M4 type stocks that can be adjusted. Combined with a shorter barrel common to a defense type shotgun, you now have a weapon that is easier to wield in hallways and doorways.
And someone else asked why a revolver would be more reliable than an auto. Well, it's simple statistics. They just are. Sure you can hold more rounds with an auto, but if it jams for any reason, it's useless in a life and death situation. Autos jam for all sorts of reasons, but most importantly, in a panic situation the end user tends to be the cause. Revolvers don't jam. Period. You could be in a panic and throw all your shots in the floor, but it won't jam. And training comes to play less with a revolver. My wife goes with me to the range occasionally, but she's nowhere near an expert on firearms. If I'm not home, and she needs to defend the family, I want her to be able to just pick up the weapon, point at the bad guy, and pull the trigger. It'll go bang everytime. No matter how untrained she may be, or how long it's been since she's used it.
Last edited by elgallo114; 08-25-2009 at 03:29 AM.
08-25-2009, 04:23 AM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,862
I guess I've never really tried it, but how do you aim accurately with a shotgun with a pistol grip? I would think it would be rather awkward. The recoil would throw you off target after the shot way more than with a normal stock. I realize it would most likely be used at very close range, but heck, one can miss even at close range if you can't aim properly. I think a normal shotgun stock would be way better and I don't think it would be anymore difficult to wield even in a tight area. With the normal stock you could always fire from the hip if you had to, just as with a pistol grip, yet you have the advantage of being able to aim better.
08-25-2009, 05:33 AM
#15
Spike
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Shawano Co., WI
Posts: 41
I guess I've never really tried it, but how do you aim accurately with a shotgun with a pistol grip? I would think it would be rather awkward. The recoil would throw you off target after the shot way more than with a normal stock. I realize it would most likely be used at very close range, but heck, one can miss even at close range if you can't aim properly. I think a normal shotgun stock would be way better and I don't think it would be anymore difficult to wield even in a tight area. With the normal stock you could always fire from the hip if you had to, just as with a pistol grip, yet you have the advantage of being able to aim better.
As far as the AR 15 arguments posted above, much of the hand wringing about reliability can be alleviated by simple maintenance of the weapon. In plain language, KEEP IT CLEAN!, and lubed for that matter. As far as the argument that you will probably not need a 30 round magazine, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. There are no time outs, or redo's when your, or your family's life is on the line.
I think it really comes down to what you are most comfortable with, as that is most likely what you will perform best with when the time comes.Just MHO.
08-25-2009, 07:18 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sierra Nevadas., Ca
Posts: 1,050
I would agree that a plain pistol grip is less than ideal, but I believe the previous poster was referring to a pistol grip/buttstock combination. In my experience, these aid greatly in maintaining control of the shotgun, as well as being more comfortable to handle.
As far as the AR 15 arguments posted above, much of the hand wringing about reliability can be alleviated by simple maintenance of the weapon. In plain language, KEEP IT CLEAN!, and lubed for that matter. As far as the argument that you will probably not need a 30 round magazine, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. There are no time outs, or redo's when your, or your family's life is on the line.
I think it really comes down to what you are most comfortable with, as that is most likely what you will perform best with when the time comes.Just MHO.
As far as the AR 15 arguments posted above, much of the hand wringing about reliability can be alleviated by simple maintenance of the weapon. In plain language, KEEP IT CLEAN!, and lubed for that matter. As far as the argument that you will probably not need a 30 round magazine, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. There are no time outs, or redo's when your, or your family's life is on the line.
I think it really comes down to what you are most comfortable with, as that is most likely what you will perform best with when the time comes.Just MHO.
Absolutely correct about the butt stock. I should have been way more clear I guess. I did mean the butt stock with a pistol grip. And the telescoping ones that mimic M4 butt stocks are excellent. The Knoxx stock has even incorporated a recoil reducing system into theirs. Don't have that one (yet) so I don't know if it's any good or not, but looks promising.
I can't/won't disagree about AR's being reliable if kept lubed. When I carried one for a living, we ran 'em real wet and had minimal problems. And magazine capacity is something everyone wants and it can't hurt.
I'm only trying to say that on a limited budget and the mind set of home defense (has to work no matter what), revolvers and lever guns have excelled in these areas.
Me? I got 'em all! Not because I think I'll need them, but because I love 'em!
08-25-2009, 07:50 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,526
elgallo114; Sorry thought you meant pistol grip only for the shotgun. You are quite right there are quite a few uses for a pistol grip with a buttstock...and the Knoxx stock does a very good job of reducing recoil. Some people like them some dont.
As far as the reliability of quality semi auto pistols and AR15's I think that their records speak for themselves. Practically every agency designed to protect US citizens uses one or the other daily (either offensively or defensively).
As far as the reliability of quality semi auto pistols and AR15's I think that their records speak for themselves. Practically every agency designed to protect US citizens uses one or the other daily (either offensively or defensively).
