Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

the thread has just about died where some were slinging threads in the 44vs45 debate. now it has been claimed that the 45 case is weaker. now since i do not own a 45 or 44 then i can scrounge up the brass and start measuring. but can someone measure some cases for us? or some proof one way or the other. i think what we need here is some case wall thinkness measurements.
and heres a thought of my own. what does the case have to do with it? its made of brass and adds very little to the structural integrity of the cylinder other than at rear, correct? and since most failures consist of the cylinder blowing out the top or the side, then the case really doesnt do much. of course in case capacity will have effects on pressure due to volume.
someone hook us up so we can kill this debate off. and if you got 454casull brass gets some measurement from there as well please.
also note what brand of brass and approx number of firings, and anything else that might change things for us

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

I can' t measure the brass and such but the Hornady manual lists the top load for the 44 Mag Revolver at 1250 fps with the 300 grain bullet. With the 45 Long Colt they list the top load for contenders and Ruger Blackhawks at 1300 fps with a 300 grain bullet. To match this with the 44 Mag you have to shoot it through a 14 inch contender. I quess this would indicate that the new 45 long colt brass does not lack the strenght.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

Nope, brass same strength. But the older cylinders were not made to handle the pressures of H110 loads or 44mag pressures. But all the newer Rugers can. So 45LC can handle about the same pressures as 44mag. Just depends on what you want. I have always opted for the 44 mag since I have a choice or hot factory loads but can load them down with Unique powder. But you have trouble buying higher pressure 45colt factory loads and would have to handload them hot.

James, I would be very careful in loading that 45LC to 1300fps with a 300gr bullet. I have seen some pressure signs with lilgun at 1200fps. Brass didn' t last that long either before splitting. I know the hornady manual said it can be done, but as always with reloading, I would consult Hodgdon, Sierra, Speer, and maybe Nosler manuals also. They don' t recommend that hot of a load for the 45LC.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

Measurements (with digital caliper)

44mag, once fired Hornady brass:
case thickness- .0140" to .0120"
rim thickness- .0560" to .0545"

454 Casull, Starline new brass:
case thickness- .0150" to .0125"
rim thickness- .0545" to .0520"

Measurements were made on single cases. Sorry, I realize the lack of significant statistical data, but these figures looked close enough to me to suggest that the thickness doesn' t matter. JMHO

It should be noted, however, that the 454 Casull utilizes a small rifle primer as opposed to a large pistol primer. The theory is that the small rifle primer can withstand higher pressure and create a larger ignition.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

I don,t have a 45 long colt anymore. I had two of them. One a Ruger and the other was a S&W. I would not even attempt to load the Hornady load without working up to them carefully. I had two or three 44 Mags. A redhawk. a Blackhawk, a Dan Wesson Pistol Pack and a S&W 5 inch revolver. I shot mostly 44 specials in all of them except for deer loads. I now just have a 44 Mag contender 21 inch carbine. When I really want punch from a handgun I reach for the 35 Remington contender.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

Just like with any other caliber, there may be some brands of .45 Colt cases that are stronger than others, BUT: All presently manufactured .45 Colt cases are as strong as any other caliber. In actuality, early .454 Casull ammo was loaded in .45 Colt brass, because there were no .454 Casull cases yet. I believe this is proof enough of the strength of .45 Colt SOLID HEAD brass. Avoid the old, folded head cases if loading heavier-than-standard loads!!

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

It' s no so much that it' s really weaker, it' s just thinner, making it weaker, there' s not some design flaw in it or anything, it was just designed at a time that modern pressure standards were unobtainable, it didn' t need to be that thick. The only reason that the .45colt has to STAY weaker than the .44mag is because of this, it' s too thin to handle the pressure necessary to push it past the mag, and if enough wall thickness were added to make it strong enough to handle it, so much case capacity would be lost that you couldn' t fit enough powder in it to get it that high anyway.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

propmahn,

First things first, anyone experimenting with higher pressures than is SAAMI approved should work up slowly and have an understanding or verification of the pressures at which their firearm can operate.

I have both, 44mag and the 45LC in Marlin 1894CB’s. In my research as to the true potential of the 45LC I have found your initial post to be fairly accurate.

FYI…I found www.sixgunner.com to a big help in my research. The site, currently under reconstruction, has several articles from people like Paco Kelly and John Linebaugh that completely discredit any idea that modern 45LC brass is any weaker than 44Mag brass. The general consensus of these guys, along with my findings from other research, is that when using modern brass it is the strength and dimension of the receiver and chamber that is in question. Brass is in fact nothing more than a " holder" for your powder and does not offer any “real” structural integrity. With all of that said, it is the earlier versions of the 45LC brass that were in fact weaker and the reason for this modern day myth. As I understand, it was not the case walls that were considered weak, it was the case head. I have heard them referred to as “balloon heads”. The case heads were hollow, thus very weak. I understand that at this time balloon head cases were not an issue as the gun construction of this era was also much weaker and couldn’t handle the pressures anyway.

What I have found to be the major bottleneck of the “modern 45LC” is current chamber dimensions. In some modern guns they are excessively large. I don’t know if it’s due to the age of this cartridge or the multitude of “like cartridges” from the time but I suspect much is largely due to the manufacturing capabilities of the era. The excessive chamber dimensions result in over worked brass. The brass will easily bulge and become case hardened and brittle from excessive resizing. Now on the other hand some chamber specs are very tight and it is these two extremes which not entirely but by themselves require a fine knowledge of your gun and the working up of loads slowly. Expanding brass in a large chamber will decrease pressure level to some extent in that this same load may have a pressure spike in a tight toleranced gun.

As I have found, Marlin stands firm and continues to follow the legend that is this myth of weak cases. They will say that they’re 1894CB in 45LC cannot the higher pressures yet in the same breathe they will tell you that it is the same receiver that offers 40,000 cup in the 44 mag. Personally, I load 24gr. of H110 in both the 44 mag and the 45LC, both using 240gr bullets. As I have no way of accurately measuring pressure, data tells me that due to the larger case volume of the 45LC that this load is approximately 10-12,000 CUP less than the 44mag. On the other hand, the Marlin 45LC chamber dimensions are one those larger chambers I spoke about and I do have to carefully watch my brass. From the 24” barrel my 44mags run out right at 1800 fps and the 45LC run out at about 1725 fps. As you can see, with velocities that are so similar yet having such a difference in pressure is why I think the 45LC is such a fine choice. It is the larger diameter, has less recoil and pumps them out at near the same velocity as the 44mag.

A few links to try that relate to this discussion…..
http://www.sixgunner.com/paco/Default.htm
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/dissolving.htm

Toby

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

The weak 45 Colt case myth comes from the old balloon-head case design which, to my knowledge, is no longer used. The 45 Colt case is not too thin to handle the pressures needed to push it past the 44 Mag, as some misinformed 44 fans claim.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

frizzellr also brings up a good point about another myth. Some may disagree but in the same quality constructed gun the 45LC will outrun the 44 mag. Like in my case, my 24gr. powder charge of H110 and the 240gr pill is not a max charge, this is according to my testing and not Marlin' s. I didn' t start seeing signs of excessive pressure until roughly about 27gr. At about 25.5-26gr my 45LC was outperforming my 44mag, chambered in the same style gun.

Toby

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

thanks toby but ive alreasy read just about everytihng over at the sixgunner site, no to mention tha i drop by the forums there daily too. i just wanted to start this topic and see what we could produce. im still hoping someone can show us that 45colt case walls are thinner or they arent.
from my reading at sixgunner.com elsewhere the only reason that ive ever seen to say the 45colt is that the cylinders are weaker. and they are weaker (assuming no 5shots) is the larger diameter case takes up more room.
but due to the larger surface area on the base of the 45bullet more work can be done on the bullet and thus make up the difference (thats debatable).
im not looking to get reccomendations of which on to buy here. my solution is to get both. and a 41mag. i like to have a good variety.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

I don' t know if there is a lot more to talk about. We all agree that brass doesn' t offer any " real" structural integrity. For those that don’t agree, we have proven that at the very least the “modern day” 45LC brass is equally as strong as 44 brass.

But to answer your question in regard to brass, compared to recoiljunky' s Hornady brass, all of my 44 and 45LC brass are Winchester.

Both the 44 and the 45LC were the same dimensionally.
case wall thickness- .0110" -.0120"
rim thickness- .0560" -.0570"

A few random thoughts....

Cylinder or chamber strength differences, if there is in fact a difference in strength, lets say Ruger BlackHawk vs. Super Red Hawk for comparison sake, then it is obvious there is a difference in either material or construction. As long as we are talking about the caliber’s in the same style gun, material and manufacturing is the same, it becomes understood that the less material removed from a cylinder the stronger it will be. Fortunately for us we have people like Paco Kelly and John Linbaugh and companies like Freedom Arms and Ruger that push the envelope. Also the reason to know the capability and/or construction of your firearm and work loads up slowly.

I believe when we get down to it we are at the mercy of the manufactures and the cost there of. We have so much technology anything is possible but how much will it cost. We all know that manufactures build from standard frame and cylinder blanks, i.e. small, medium and large frame guns. When more power is requested they change something ever so slightly, requiring a new caliber. IMHO, this reasoning is a two headed beast, the first is for safety sake and a good thing but the other is to make us think we need a new gun and to generate sales, like the .45-70 vs. the 450 Marlin. One is for the reloader and the other is not.

If this discussion is based on modern weapons then at some point even cylinder wall strength become a meaningless conversation due to the extreme over-engineering by the manufacturer to guarantee safety. I don’t have the article directly in hand but if I remember correctly the Ruger Super Redhawk was tested to nearly 90,000-100,000 cup before the cylinder failed. Even at those pressures it was only a cylinder failure, the frame remained perfectly intact and continued firing with a new cylinder. Another reason to know the capability and/or construction of your firearm and work loads up slowly.

Toby

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

I have found some lots of brass to vary a little in thickness,BUT it is still strong enough. I prefer Starline for my loads but I have used others and the only thing bad I can say is I don' t get quite as many reloads out of the other brands.
That could be in the make-up of the brass and have nothing to do with thickness.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

Nomercy, if you section a Federal or Starline .45 Colt case, you will find they are Just as thick and made of just as hard an alloy as any .44 Magnum brass! I discovered this over 10 years ago!! I AM NOT talking about folded head, so-called " balloon-head" cases!! Those are relics of the Black Powder Colts!!

So, what you just said about the .45 Colt brass of modern manufacture is just flat WRONG!!!

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

eldeguello

Who are you talking to? In regard to brass every post in this thread is in agreement with you, at least I agree with you.

If you are referring to my “mercy of the manufactures” comment, it had nothing to do with brass.

Maybe unclear, but the point I was trying to make is this. We have proven 45LC brass to be equal in strength to 44 brass. So any question regarding whether or not you can load the 45LC to 44 pressures becomes a question regarding the construction and strength of the firearm. If a manufacturer has a gun capable of handling 454 pressures then you most definitely can load the 45LC to 44 pressures if in the same gun or in a gun built on the same specs and material as the 454. Now for those models that are chambered in 45LC and not in 454 is where we fall to their mercy. If not already capable, they could easily make these guns handle the pressure, but why would they? Cost of manufacturing, safety and future sales/marketing. They answer our call for more power by slightly changing a few things and introducing a new caliber.

Toby

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

Toby from MO, eldeguello was reffering to the misinformation in a post made by " nomercy" about the case walls being thinner.

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

frizzellr,

Thanks for pointing that out. eldeguello, sorry for the confusion. I seen the word " nomercy" and thought you referring to my post. I must have looked right over his name.

Toby

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

Mercy!! I' s talkin' to Nomercy!! Toby, you are so right!! A good, strong 5-shot revolver cylinder will actually stand loads hotter than a lot of L.A. rifle actions!!!

RE: Is the 45colt case weaker?
 

i thought this topic might stir up some heat. and i am pleased