survival rifle
 

All right I know this post has been done, but what i am interested in is our opinoins and why. I am talking rifles not pistols or shot guns.

So if you had tomake a choice on a rifle to do these tasks with;to defend a small family from wild critters both 4 and 2legged onesand collect food. (small game, big game what ever you think you would use it for)

Action-

Caliber-

sights-

anything else you can think of- ( stainless, synthetic stock, brand, camo)


I am interested to see howyour thought process is on this, like do you go strickly with iron sights or a sturdy fixed power and detachable rings and iron sight. And ammo availabilty and cost toreload or purchase your ammo stock. Do you care if the finish is blued or stainless. Do you want semi auto,bolt action, lever or other. This is just for fun and everyones situation is totally different. It will be interesting to hear your responses, thanks.

RE: survival rifle
 

My colt AR-15 A3 with the 100 round dual drum mag, and a nice red dot, .223 of course

RE: survival rifle
 

the things that i know i am sold on are

iron sights

semi auto

.223 7.62x39 .308 .30-06 .30 carbine most of these selections are bassed on price and availability. The amount I could carry would make a diifference so the 308 and the 30-06 would be second choice to some of the others.

synthetic stock

light and short would be important.

RE: survival rifle
 

Semi Auto .308 carbine (M1A Socom or Remington 742<or modern equivilent>)
keep a dot sight or 4x scope on it for Self Defense

they will protect from even armored two legged varmints and do well against medium and large game.
Pros:
simple/reliable action
accurate
good stopping power
good range
ammunition widely available

cons:
Overpenetration for indoor use
usually on the heavier side
relatiely low maximum ammunition capacity. (up to 20 rds in reliable magazines)

if big gameisnt a concern, then go for a AR design in either 5.56mm or 6.8mm
the 6.8 is more powerful and can be used to hunt dear but the ammo isnt very common and can be hard to find as of yetand it isnt the cheapest. Magazine hold up to 28 rds.
the 5.56 is everywhere and really cheap and wont go through a intruding varmint, the wall and down into your neighboors house. Also, its light recoil means anyone can learn to use it and not be afraid. magazines hold up to 100 if you get a drum.

unless your planning hand to hand combat, get a synthetic. Its light and wont rot away over the years.

RE: survival rifle
 

If this is going to be a single firearm, defensive, and have to last a long time, possible you can't get another one. Then get a mid size caliber rifle in a pump action. Semi auto, though reliable by todays standard will most likely wear out sooner than anything else. More moving parts, gas tubes...etc that can go wrong. A pump, well lets face it, are exceptionally reliable, and going to be easier to fix if you break it. Caliber is really going to depend on What is available out there, might even go so far as to say something in a .44 mag, though that might be a little over kill for squirrels, you can take rabbits with it with out too much damage, as long as it isn't a hollow point round. That is of course as long as that caliber is out ther ein a pump. Might not be. Other wise, .223 is good, you can kill most anything up to deer with it, good for defense, readily available, and if you need to reload, not to pricy either. Though .308 would most likely be my overall first choice. That brings even larger game into the picture. I have killed rabbits with one at 20 ft ( just stumbled on them ) and shot them with 165 grain match ammo, and really didn't destroy any meat. Also a good caliber since it is a military round for Nato, it is widely available.
For something like this, It would have to come with iron sights from the factory, and be drilled and tapped for a scope as well. Variable power in this case is a must. Say a 3-12 power. Low enough for close shooting and in the woods, and enough higher power for longer distance if needed.

RE: survival rifle
 

I'm with kdvollmer on this one my choice would have to be a Rem.760 carbine in 30-06 or .308.semi is O.K. but the pump don't usually malfunction.carbine for quick handling.caliber choice can get either about anywhere.

RE: survival rifle
 

Wow, my thinking must be from another planet.

First, I don't know any wild animals in this hemisphere I would have to defend against short of a griz and I don't live within 1,500 miles of one. As for defending against people, they are about as hard to drive away as chickens.:)

It wouldn't take me 2 seconds to make this decision on weapon.

Give me a stainless bolt action .22 Long Rifle.

Why?

First I can kill anything from a dove to a deer with it. That will feed me.
Gotta be a bolt action because they are stronger and don't have as much crap to brake or gum up. All these AR's andd AK's and Awhatevers are BS for an ultimate survival weapon. They are COMBAT weapons.

I can stack 1000 rounds of 22LR ammo in the space 100 rounds of high power rifle ammo takes up.:) I assume we are going to have to survive more than a weekend because that's about how long most of you guy's ammo is going to last. And if you gotta pack up all your stuff and run from a pack of crazoid thugs, try running with 1,000 rounds of even the dinky little .223 ammo in your pack.

We all like to kick around the notion of "survival" but if your really think about it......the gun really plays a very minor part in things. We'll worry more about having a few pots and pans to cook and boil water and a blanket to stay warm at night more than which belt fed machinegun we are going to set up at the cave entrance.

Get real guys. Are we talking about survival or just a weekend gunfight? They are two VERY different things.

RE: survival rifle
 

I agree eith Pavomesa, I might up the anty to a 22 mag though. A bolt action is the most reliable next to single shot.

RE: survival rifle
 

I would say 22lr , 223 , 6.8spc, 308 in rifle. Shotgun a 12 ga. Pistol 9 mm,38 SW,357 mag.40 cal, 45 acp . Can't go wrong with any of these rounds. Incidentally the 6.8 spc is being used by U.S Special Forces and some Police agencies.

RE: survival rifle
 

I don’t think I would choose a 22LR to defend my family. I think it’s a great choice for survival, but defense, no way. I would go with the AR-15, red dot scope with detachable rings, flip up iron sights. If I had to head for the hills, I would split the ammo up and have the kids help carry.

RE: survival rifle
 

I'm not totaly with Pavomasa but sorta , I do have bears and big cats in my back yard . I like the pump idea . Have an action plan for the end of socity and the colapse of civilation . It includes a lever 357 and a 22 pump . The lever is is as relible as any pump and almost as fast and has about 9 moving parts and 7 of them can be reproduceced with a file . the 357 carbineis more than enough for cats and california browns at save the larder ranges . At even 20 yrds a man ina bullet vest is going to be damaged to some degree . I have moulds for the 357 and if it came down to a complete forever apoclipse the case is big enough to use (god forbid) home grown primers andblack powder . This is a NO frills rifle Iron sights click elevation at the rear ,ranger 5/50 cord sling , 1o + 1 , wash the mud out in the lake/creek animal fat lubed5 lb.survival tool . The 357 works with my side arms too .

RE: survival rifle
 

how did i forget about lever actions... might have to reconsider my choice

RE: survival rifle
 

I like the AR style platform but i think i would want something with a little more punch then the 5.56, something like the 6.8 or .308 would do quite nicely i would think

RE: survival rifle
 

stick with a caliber that is abundant and cheap.. the future of the 6.8 spc is still uncartain

RE: survival rifle
 

Pavomesa
"Give me a stainless bolt action .22 Long Rifle."

I agree that if all you were going to do is collect food with the rifle a 22lr would do. But to defend a family no way. I live near mountains in utah were bear and cougar tracks are always present. So for me I would not even consider a 22lr. And I agree in the long runthe rifle does play a small role in survival but I want it to be up to the task. And where you live mybe a 22 lr will do it.Inthis post I was asking about a rifle only not pots and pans.

Pavomesa
"Get real guys. Are we talking about survival or just a weekend gunfight?"


Weekend fight not sure what thatmeans. But in a survival situation maybe like louisiana your not always just dealing with just the elements. I did not say what kind of survival that is up to who responded to this thread.

starhunter21
"I would split the ammo up and have the kids help carry."

I agree with this one for sure.

RE: survival rifle
 

I only suggested pump over lever action because I felt that it can be more quickly, and reliably cycled in a defensive use. A high powered pistol cartridge in a lever action would make for a fine rifle in this situation as well. Think old wild west folks....

RE: survival rifle
 

.44 mag baby!!!

RE: survival rifle
 

Savage - Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to really rain on your thread here. I was day dreaming and studying about this survival stuff back when nuclear holocost was almost a daily dread, i.e. 40 years ago. My rifle then was the great all-around 30/06. I even developed a load for it that I could hunt quail with......1 1/2 grs of bullseye under a 150 gr cast bullet. Shot like a .22 LR.

But anyway as I really studied all this my thinking seriously evolved. Ultimately I came to realize the only rifle that would work in a serious long term situation was the .22 for the reasons I've listed.

As for repelling or protecting the family from other people, the lowly .22 is quite effective at that. The Russians used it very effectively as a sniping rifle against Germans in WW-2 and heaven only knows how many people a 22 has killed. But of course you don't have to kill with it. All we really want is to convince someone to leave us the hell alone and the .22 can get that message across quite well.

Defending against cougars and black bears? How often do these attack people? Very rarely...and if I were in a survival situation around them, I think I would likely shoot everyone of them I encountered regardless what they were doing........just to convince them to stay the hell away from me and people in general. The big reason for the rare cougar attack is they've lost their fear of man...but this is something that can be very quickly RE-TAUGHT...and again, I think the lowly 22 can teach the lesson.

The more one thinks about real survival, the more you realize it's the mundane little things that never cross our minds that would kill us. We can go out into the woods armed to the teeth but what if you forgot the can opener, or matches, or a needle to dig that big thorn out of your foot? Water purification tablets? Toilet paper? Aspirin or your allergy medicine?

I used to do a lot of backpacking and was always very careful to pack my .357 Magnum and enough ammo to start a small war. Invariably I would come home with the thing unfired. The gun and the ammo was just like 5 lbs of scrap metal in my pack. On the other hand, life could sure become hell if I forgot some of the "trivial stuff" that I was going to need every day. I learned about the needle for splinters the hard way.

Anyway, I love to daydream about guns as much as the next guy. But when you say "survival," I think of a whole different scenario. I'll go with the guy who is well equipped...not the guy who is well armed. And I figure in about a week of real survival life, the well armed guy will be willing to trade me a rifle for some salt. :)

RE: survival rifle
 

Let me add this little suggestion for anyone thinking survival: Clear a space somewhere and start placing in that spot all the things you want to have with you in a life or death long term survival situation. I suspect it will take you 10 minutes to pile up more stuff than you can carry in a backpack. And I suspect that within 30 minutes you will have enough stuff to fill the trunk of your car.[:o] You might get MOST of what you really need in the back of a pick-up. Then ask yourself if that truck carries enough fuel in the tank to get you to your "survival spot" or do you need to figure a way to bolt on gas cans? What if that fancy assault rifle breaks a firing pin the 3rd time you pull a trigger?[&:]

Just let your imagination run wild with this little problem. It won't take long for anyone to understand just how complicated this really is and why I'll just grab a 22 and a couple of bricks of ammo.

And don't forget your toothbrush!:D

RE: survival rifle
 

Pavomesa, kind of like your reasoning. Not sure in the heat of the battle I would grab my 10/22 over my AR15, but sticking with the thread of a single rifle, which brand/model would you recommend for this scenario. Is there one that seems more durable than the others. I have a 10/22, browning lever, ruger pistol, and suppressed P22, but not sure I would want to defend my family w/ any of them.

RE: survival rifle
 

Sar...if you were shooting at me, I can assure you that any of those guns you named would discourage me from messing with you.:)

RE: survival rifle
 

thats easy to say now... but if you were starving, thirstyand they had the only sustenance or if someone inyour family was injured and sick and they had medicine and despite all your pleas they wouldnt help, i think you might be singing a different tune.

up in NY, DEC actually has reported that attacks from wild cats is actually on the rise.... they target hikers.

while the .22 is afantastic survival tool, I dont think it is the BEST choice.Especially when you consider that you will have to compete against other animals and maybe other peoplefor increasingly limited resources.

Also when you consider how abundant drugs are in this country and how they give people super human strength and resiliency, a 22lr wont necessarily scare them or stop them. Sure point blank might stop them but what if you get rushed by two or more people... I wouldnt trust a .22 to keep my wife and children safe in that kind of situation. Is it likely to happen? I hope not but this is a Worst Case Survival Scenario.
i read about an insurgentthat washoopedup on drugs surviving being shot about 11 times to the torso, armand neckfrom a62 gr 5.56AND even having a Bradley runhim over. In a situation where you will have to survive for an unlimited amount of time you might run into these kinda of folk who might want somethingyou have or even some one - say a fall of society type situation where there is no law or safe place to go- You should probably consider something larger that a .22lr.

RE: survival rifle
 

Pavomesa

I like your reasoning sounds like you have thought it through. I am interested in how people think though it (survival ) more than the actualy result ( the rifle). I can definatley respect your opinon and all that have posted on this thread.

RE: survival rifle
 

Badger, do you know how many cat attacks have occurred on people armed with .22s? What you say about the drug addicts is true but I suspect if the world goes into survival mode the drug traffic industry may dry up. Won't be much profit in it when all I have to give you for a kilo of marajuana is three mushrooms and some pine nuts.

There is a fundamental difference in our thinking. You, I believe, are trying to prepare for a very rare and UNlikely possibility and I am trying to prepare for guaranteed eventualities.

And no matter what you or I do, there is always the possibility one of us will be bitten by a rattlesnake or smacked in the head with a rock by some guy who jumps on us from behind a bush.

Survival will be something of a game of chance. I worry more about running out of bullets than having the biggest gun out there.

RE: survival rifle
 

Pavo,

You are perhaps 100% correct on the the .22lr. The only other choice I would throw in there is a shotgun. I really think that in the situation described those are the only two choices. I guess it depends on how long you anticipate having to survive. I'd say the longer the outlook the better the .22lr is looking.

I don't know how many on here have a possibilities bag. However, mine just gets bigger and bigger every year that I learn something new in the woods. A lot of things can happen when your out in the woods and don't have a fully furnished house to go to.

Tom

RE: survival rifle
 

If it ever gets to the point of survival like you guys are talking about, I'm glad I won't have to choose just one weapon. Myself and my family(all the way down to the 10 year old) will be packing. If I did have to choose one for long term survival, I think I would aggree with Pavomesa. My Marlin bolt action with 17 in the tube would provide well for my family. Second choice would be my .223.

RE: survival rifle
 

Is there any documented evidence of the Russians using a 22LR as a sniping round in WWII? I've never read anything about it.

RE: survival rifle
 

Yes, it's well documented. I've read accounts of it but don't ask me to remember the publication and the History Channel mentioned it on one of their documantaries about WW-2. Keep in mind the Russians didn't have the cream of the crop for weapons and their partisans etc just used whatever they could get their hands on. They tried to go for the headshots as even the .22 was normally effective there.

------------------------

Stat - The problem with a shotgun gets back to the volume of ammunition you can carry. Shotgun ammo is terribly heavy and bulky...and depending on where you live, the limited range of a shotgun could be a hell of a handicap. A lot of the country, the SW especially, you could play hell getting close enough to kill a deer or some nice prize like that with a shotgun.

The .22 extends your range somewhat and will work for turkey, ducks, even quail in the hands of a good shot.

I've given the choice of this weapon LOTS of thought and all things considered, it's about the only thing that makes sense. Certainly the most return for a survivalist $$$. If a guy could afford a thousand or so 22 mag shells sitting around, it might be considered. Would be some better on larger game but don't know how much it would ruin on birds. You don't want something that's going to trash half your meat and birds may be much more a staple of the diet than larger game. Killing a deer and eating the meat or preserving it before it ruins can be very problematic. I've made jerky but never with nothing but a campfire.

Anyone who wants to get into the survival game had better have a lot of time to read, learn and practice their skills. I've gone out and put some of my notions to the test and found reality was far different from what I thought. The one thing I can assure you works is the .22LR. As I said in the beginning........the gun is not the issue. As the old saying goes, "The devil is in the details."

RE: survival rifle
 

A good reliable lever action in a pistol magnum cartridge. 44 Magnum would be nice. Tom.

RE: survival rifle
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: Pavomesa

Yes, it's well documented. I've read accounts of it but don't ask me to remember the publication and the History Channel mentioned it on one of their documantaries about WW-2. Keep in mind the Russians didn't have the cream of the crop for weapons and their partisans etc just used whatever they could get their hands on. They tried to go for the headshots as even the .22 was normally effective there.

------------------------

I'd say the History channel took something that happend very, very infrequently and made it sound like it was commone place. I'm not aware of any reliable sources that document the 22LR being commonly used by the Russians as a sniper weapon in WWII.

RE: survival rifle
 

[/quote]

up in NY, DEC actually has reported that attacks from wild cats is actually on the rise.... they target hikers.

[/quote]

I'm in NY and the DEC is denying there are any big cats in the state, even though the number of possible sightings is increasing. So I doubt the DEC is reporting any big cat attacks.

I'm with the .22lr crowd, but I sure would try to bring my Marlin .44mag lever gun along.

RE: survival rifle
 

Caribou - What do they mean "wild cats?" Are they talking bobcat or lynx or what? I've seen three cougars/mountain lions in Texas and have friends that have seen some as well. The interesting thing was most of them were where you would LEAST expect them. Two were within a stone's throw of airports and two of the three were in country you wouldn't even call wooded.

I used to fly patrol and flew right over the top of the first cougar about 50 feet above his head. When I saw him I didn't think anything of it and told myself it was another coyote...which I saw all the time. But after I went over him the bells went off in my head and I realized the coloring was wrong and no coyote has that long broomhandle tail. A second later I realized what I had seen and I about tore the wings off the plane turning around for a second pass. But the cat had vanished...which baffled me as there wasn't much of any place to hide from an airplane except the ruins of and old collapsed house. A year later I flew over another one at same altitude out in the middle of nowhere and I knew immediately what he was. When I made my turn I kept my eyes on him all the time so he didn't give me the slip again. But before I got half around, he just vanished like a puff of smoke. I thought I was going crazy and I kept circling the area and a minute later there he was again.......and then 30 seconds later he vanishes again. We played this game for several minutes before I finally saw what he was doing to me. He never did try to run away as I expected. Didn't even really try to hide...as I expected. But each time I would get fairly close, he would just lie down in the grass and vanish. Blew my mind how he could turn it all on and off like that. A coyote would have run for 5 miles without stopping but no cat likes to run if he doesn't have to.

They are funny critters and if they've lost their fear of man, they can scare the daylights out of you. But they are not dumb.

People are amazed to find they are living among us in the southwest but they don't need to live by going on livestock killing sprees. In sheep and goat country there are enough animals die of natural causes and misadventure to keep a big cat pretty well fed and he never has to kill anything. Cats aren't big on eating carrion, but if it's fresh and they are a little hungry, they sure won't turn it down.

Anyway, sure there are some other guns I'd love to bring and have around. I can think of all sorts of things I'd like with me and will if it happens. But I suspect when the world gets that crazy, time and opportunity and mobility may limit what we can do.

Another salient point I've figured out about survival is a guy by himself doesn't stand much chance...not against the elements or anything. He's gotta sleep sometime. He can't be three places at once, doing three things at once. It was no accident ancient man lived in clans and formed tribes and communities. The rugged individualist who went it alone didn't last long before he got ate, hurt, sick or just worn out.

So this is another critical point about survival far more important than the "which gun" question, i.e. ask yourself WHO you're going to go surviving with? Wife and kids? Great.........but what can any of them do? How long will any of them last in the wild. REAL survival is going to take a group of like minded adults who know what they are doing or at least know enough to survive while they learn what they don't know.

Just how important this is was driven home to me years ago when I got some books and started studying Geronimo. According to Hollywood, all Geronimo did was ride around, raping and pillaging and living the good life by living off the land. Nothing could be farther from the truth. He spent most of his time being hunted like a dog and only survived as long as he did because the area where he operated was basically EMPTY. In fact, most of it still is. So he had very little real opposition. But the thing that really surprised me was the biggest problem Geronimo had during his career was with desertions. The vast majority of time he couldn't keep enough people with him to do much of anything but try to hide. Life was a lot easier on the reservation and everytime Geronimo would go back and talk a band of followers into going with him, it didn't take long at trying to live off the land and playing real survival before most of them turned around and went very happily back to the reservation. So if this is what the Apaches thought of survival, there should be a pretty serious lesson in there for all of us. None of us are near tough enough or smart enough or ready. Bring all the guns you want...but we're probably going to die with them pretty quick.[:-]

RE: survival rifle
 

Pav, what bloody gun would you buy? Your not keeping this a secret in case it does happen and your the only one standing are you? Your not secretly a .223 man and hoping through this thread you will convince everyone to stash 22LR and "out gun" them??:)

just curious

RE: survival rifle
 

In my previous post, I was trying to quote from a previous post by Badger Boy. He stated "up in NY, DEC actually has reported that attacks from wild cats is actually on the rise.... they target hikers.".

Here in NY in recent years, there have been a number of UNCONFIRMED cougar sighting. The DEC conciders cougars EXTINCT in NY. So I found his statement about the DEC reporting cat attacks a slight exaggeration.

As someone who has studied wildlife ecology, I know how adaptable critters can be. I personally wouldn't be that surprised if a cougar popped up here in NY. But the big question would be where it came from, since no neighboring states or provinces have cougar populations. It would likely be an escapee from someone's collection.

Along the survivalist theme; I bet quite a few here would enjoy reading about a fellow named Dick Proenneke. He homesteaded alone in Alaska for 30 years from about 1967-1997. He is well known for his accomplishments and documented much of how he lived. I encourage you all to read his journals and watch his films. He was a very talented indiividual and we can all learn something from him.
http://www.dickproenneke.com/

RE: survival rifle
 

My link got censored. Well, the gentleman's name is Richard. Hope this is enough of a clue. :D

RE: survival rifle
 

:D No, Star, I like a .223 and think it's a great cartridge but I don't currently even own one. I believe the pretext of this thread stated ONE gun. And under than scenario, it's gotta be the .22 LR for the reasons stated. But even if we were allowed six guns in this thread, the .22 LR will always be the main one. If you want to visualize a situation where one can "escape the madness" with several guns and enough ammo to be worth the trouble, that's another matter. And in that view, a bolt action .223 would be a great choice because it's very accurate, effective and once again the ammo is pretty small and light compared to other stuff. I say BOLT action because the AR/Mini breed of firearms can't touch them for accuracy...and accuracy will be more important than rate of fire, i.e. spray and pray.

Anyone who wants to become a real survivalist must first get this Hollywood notion out of their head that "survival" is all about glorious firefights. This is movie BS. We should notice that lions and tiger and the like NEVER press their attacks to the death with opponents. They either make a quick kill or they back off to try another day. I always wondered why...since they are obviously tougher and stronger. The answer is that in real survival, getting wounded is usually a death sentence. And so it will be for us if we want to try and turn survival into a contest of gunfights. You may kill your opponent but if he wounds you...you'll die as well. So...you don't play that game.

I figure the smart survivalist will be the invisible man who devotes his time to avoiding people rather than confronting them.

What other guns would I take with me? First I would grab my Ruger .22 auto pistol, then my .45 ACP and .41 Magnum. Finally, I'd take my 270 for the long range heavy lifting stuff. The .22 pistol and 45 ACP are great self-defense guns. The .41 Mag is a potent hunting tool out to 100 yds that you could strap on and take with you when you go out on other duties and need both hands free to do other things like gather firewood etc. But with the .41 along you are portected from man or beast and can take it out and drop most game if an opportunity arises.

But as always I stress, guns are fairly far down on the list of things to take with you.

What medicines must you have?
What tools must you have?
How about fishing gear?
Clothing and bedding?
Cooking and cleaning items?
Needles and thread?
Fire starters?
Compass?
Signal mirrors?
Tarp and rain gear?
Rope, twine or shoelaces?
Food stuffs and how to keep the rats from eating it first?

On and on the list must go.

Sadly an old duffer like me likely won't have the option of running for the hills. I'll just have to stay put and fight off the gathering hoard. But it has crossed my mind that when city utilities fail, I've got no way to heat or cook anything...and no water to drink and no place to go get it.

Serious survival will be everyone's worst nightmare. Reality is not a weekend in the woods painting our faces and play acting.[8D]