Argintine Mauser?
 

Guy here at the house has a old rifle.Says"MAUSER MODELO ARGENTINO1891" Manufactura Lowe Berlin .He said he thought it was a 7.62 of some sorts I tried to stick a 7.62 x54 in the chamber no go tried a .308 no go .It does not have the piece running down the bolt like for crf on regular mausers and Winnies.Any Ideas what this is or caliber ...........SWAMP Told him I would give a $100.00 BTW it does not have a floor plate like a Mauser but looks like a Nagant on the bottom.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

The caliber is7.65 Argentine. Is the receiver and bolt in the white or are they blued? Is the the crest still on the receiver? Are the numbers all matching? Just a few of the things to look for.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

Crest has been sanded off ,Bolt is in the white but the receiver is in the blue. Does have matching numbers.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

Do the numbers match? It's still worth $100.00 provided the bore is good and it hasn't been "sporterized" in any way.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

yes it is what I call a 7.625 argentine mauser because I have one, a guy told me , at a sporting goods store I won't mention that it was a 7.62 x 54 no no these are a very specific caliber. the 7.62x54 rounds I fired went crazy spiraled and whacko the primer actually mushroomed i fired four rounds and went back to show my friend he said do not fire any more I went and got norma argentine 7.65 round and did alot of online searching. and actually talked to a guy from argentine he said the rifles were why they lost the war with the british kinda a cheaply made gun and I found prices up to $165.00 on some gun auctions online. the 7 mm round made by mauser came in alot of odd combos which made the case a different length if i remember correctly the 65 ment the diameter or length of the case and this was because the belgiums and germans and any other nieghboring country did not want there enemy to be able to take the rifle and use there ammo in it or vise versa take the dead guys ammo or weapon and be able to use it. I also think this was a nato round in fmj at one time could be wrong on that

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

some were made in 7x57 I believe, A very good round

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

As mentioned above, the cartridge it uses is the 7.65X53mm or 7.65X54mm Argentine/BelgianMAUSER rimless round. This cartridge is entirely different from the 7.62X54R, the rimmed round for the Mosin-Nagant! You cannot shoot Russian rifle ammo in these Argentine rifles! The Argentine rifles, both the M 1891 and the M1909, are much finer rifles than anything ever made in Russia (well, except maybe for stuff made for the Tsar himself!!) They were made when German military rifle craftsmanship was about the best anywhere.

I've seen the cartridge nomenclature for this rifle expressedboth ways, ie., X53 or X54. They are the same cartridge. There was some poorly made Argentine ammo floating around several years back that had a head-to-shoulder lenght that was too long, and it would not chamber in rifles with tight chambers, resulting in a rumor that the Argentine Army & Navy usedtwo different rifle cartridges. In effect, they did, but it was NOT intentional, as all their rifles were chambered for only the one cartridge. (I got this info straight from anArgentinian naval officer!)

The bore diameter of these rifles is about the same as the .303 British or 7.7X58 Japanese, and the FN Belgian and FM Argentine ammo I have has .314" bullets-the Belgian stuff's bullets weigh 174grains, the Argentine bullets weigh 185 grains. But I use .308" diameter, 200-grain bullets in loading for mine, and get excellent accuracy.

I have made some ammo for mine using .308 cases, but they are actually too short by 2-3mm. Graf's sells ammo for this rifle.http://www.grafs.com/ammo/240

This cartridgeis every bit as good as the .308, and in the Model 1909 Argentine rifle, which is merely a version of the M 98 Mauser, this round can be loaded to nearly .30/'06 level performance especially if you leave the barrel 29" long! BUT, you have to keep pressures lower for ammo used in the M91's-they aren't as strong as the 1909's....

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

If you buy it and its in original condition and the bore isn't a complete sewer pipe, I'll offer you $150+ shipping for it if you decide that you don't like it. ;)

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

I've seen an old guy that I used to shoot with at the range do the exact same thing, apparantly it works well.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

eldeguello covered it nicely (as he always does). I've got one of these rifles too, though mine was made by DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken). It's all original except for the crest havingbeen ground off. My grandfather bought it years ago and I ended up with it when he passed away in '73. I use if for hunting occassionally, but nota lotas I don't care muchfor hunting with iron sights.

The cartridge is in factthe 7.65x53 or 7.65mm Argentine. Norma makes ammo for it. Imostly shoot handloads inmine using150 gr.Hornadyor Sierra bullets. Sierra bullets are .311" in diameter while Hornadys are .312". I getbetter accuracy with Hornadys.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

Thanks for the kind words. Here's how .308" bullets shoot in mine, loaded in Norma brass... This 100-metergroup was shot with both Sierra and Nosler Partition 200-grain bullets. In my 29" barrel, the MV is over 2650 FPS. This makes a hell of a great long-range sniper rifle! With the Sierra bullet, it delivers 1500 foot/pounds of energy at 600 yards!

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

how do you tell what is the exact round for the rifle ? can a gunsmith check the bore ?

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

Bought the rifle . Thing looks pretty dang good ,wood not beat all to crap.Blue on mag very good shape.rifling look good ,But I have not put a brush and some good stuff down it yet to get the real picture.Been to busy trying to set up that Brownie.Soon as I figure out how to post pics. I will put some on here[8D].

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

You don't need a gunsmith to tell you that the cartridge for the Modelo Argentino 1891 or Modelo Argentino M 1909is the 7.65X53mm Mauser round. (BUT, it isa good idea to have a gunsmith check the HEADSPACE on any old military rifle before it is fired. Unless the previous owner has been shooting it with no problems!)

This particular cartridge WAS designed by Paul Mauser, UNLIKE the 57mm-long ones of various calibersthat are all based on the 7.8X57mmJ (8X57J) cartridge which, although called "the 8mm Mauser", is not a Mauser cartridgeat all, but was designed by the Prussian Infantry Rifle Commission, along with the Gewehr 1888 rifle. Paul Mauser favored cartridges SHORTER than 57mm. That's why this one is only 53mm long. The 7.65X53mm roundwas used by Argentina, a couple of other latin American armies, Turket & Belgium at least. Belgium used it in their M1889 rifle, which has the same single-row protruding magazine box in front of the trigger guard as does the Modelo Arg. 1891.

Funny thing is that all the later "Mauser" cartridges using 57mm-long cases to shoot bullets ranging from .224 all the way up to 9.3 are made by necking the M1888 Commision cartridge up and downand calling them "Mauser", when they weren't Mauser desgns at all...........

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

eldeg...my hat is off to you. Your gun knowledge is amazing!

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

Nice shooting eldequello. And you're getting 2650 with 200 grain bullets? Heck I'm only getting that or a little more with 150 gr. bullets in mine (29" barrel also), though I'm not trying to push the envelope with my loads. Course the rough bore might have something to do with that too, it has a lot in common with sandpaper. Even so, it shoots pretty well. Here's a picture of a 50 yard group with the Hornadys:



Notice that I aimed at the bottom point of the diamond. It shoots 5" high at 50 yards! I have to remember to compensate for that when I'm hunting with it.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

I'm not sure about the 1891s, but a lot of 1909s were reamed to chamber 30-06 to extend the service life of the rifle due to the endless suply of surplus 30-06 ammo from sugar daddy Uncle Sam.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

Well, that's a nice group also that you have there. You have to keep in mind that my rifle is a Model 1909. When I got my rifle, the stock wood showed evidence of rough handling, but the metal parts appeared new, including the bore. No evidence of having ever been fired.

I worked up that 200-grain load using IMR 4350 powder and .308", rather than .311" or .314", bullets. I ran out of space for more powder in the cases with those 200-grain bullets and never encountered anysigns of excessive pressures with that load, although it may be excessive in many rifles. I've heard that some of the M1909's have soft receivers and that the bolt can set back the locking surfaces in the receiver with slightly high pressures, resulting in excessive headspace. Mine has NOT done that, even with 52.5 grains of IMR 4350 behind those 200-grain bullets. You may have noted that two of those three shots had identical instrumental velocity readings at 10' from the muzzle (2691 FPS).

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

I suppose if I had the 1909 I might also be inclined to experiment with some stronger loads. However, with the 1891 I don't want to push my luck. To be honest, these days I don't do any serious load development with it. Haven't hunted with it in a couple of years in fact. I take it to the range once or twice a year to knock the dust off of it.

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

I agree with you. I would NOT want to stretch things with an M91 either. The rifle is just as effective at .300 Savage ballistics levels anyway! I have never hunted with mine. Every time I get ready to go hunting, just selecting the rifle gets to be a real pain! That's why I've been using flintlocks alot lately!

RE: Argintine Mauser?
 

The 1909 can be loaded to .308 win power and there should be near new barrels laying around at gunsmiths that were take offs.The 1909 was a popular action for custom guns[hinged floorplate]Harold I had a DWM 1908 Brazilian 7x57