S1

Jonnybravado chicken sh-T She died 15 years ago. Lucky for her she never had to meet a POS like you. We will meet some day, and I look forward to the event. I have relatives that live in Saginaw, can't wait to see you....

PAhunter86

I've heard people (military/government) using frangible ammunition.
I guess standard FMJ doesn't always cut it

ipscshooter

The tone of this one was a little better, at least as directed to me. Thank you. I think we would all be better served if everyone on both sides of the discussion would try to moderate the tone used. I admit that I don't know much about your bullets. I've been perfectly content hunting relatively small-bodied Texas Hill Country deer using Remington PSP Core-Lokt and Winchester Power Point ammo, and have never had reason to research frangible ammo. Not having an engineering background, and just thinking about it logically, it's difficult to understand how a bullet will both penetrate bone AND create these huge soccer ball sized wound channels AND not exit.

Let me see if I can structure a couple of questions that can help resolve the penetration issue. I understand that you use compression of the tungsten cores to vary the amount of penetration that the bullets will achieve. As a result of the use of the more densely compressed cores, you are able to achieve penetration not only of bone, but of engine blocks, etc... There are also claims that the bullet somehow releases this cloud of tungsten particulate matter within the game, which creates these huge wound channels, expends all the energy within the game, and doesn't exit. Logically, it seems to me that this would require less core compression. My question is, does the bullet achieve both, or is it an either/or situation? That is, do the bullets which are sufficiently dense to penetrate heavy bone, still do the "explosive" type of wound channel, or do they fully penetrate? Or, is it more or less a trial and error deal where you experiment until you find the perfect core compression that achieves the balance of penetration/explosiveness that you need for a particular situation?

jeepkid

Don't forget guys, the ONE testimonial on their website is of a guy that shot a deer with a .223 from 25 yards and the deer ran 20 yards before falling. So much for "dead right there"....

ipscshooter

Here's one from the customer testimonials on the drtammo website.

http://www.drtammo.com/testim011508.pdf

Small 8 point, that ran 20 yards after being hit by an 87 gr. 223. The customer describes the wound channel, etc.

Sounds like virtually the same performance I've gotten from my .243.

jeepkid

ipsc,

See my post above yours.

ipscshooter

Yeah, I saw it. You posted it while I was typing my response.

S1

"My question is, does the bullet achieve both, or is it an either/or situation?"

This technology allows the bullet maker to make a core that is much harder than lead and will penetrate much farther than lead. It also allows the bullet maker to make a core that is more frangible than a lead bullet. The control mechanism is the amount of binder used, and how much pressure is used to bond the core particles. For example, the S.E.A.L. teams use a 79 grain frangible bullet that will break up very quickly on a hard surface because they work taking down ships and oil rigs that have many vertical steel surfaces in the operating environment, and they have suffered richochet type injuries with M855 and other lead bullets. It is much safer for them to use the super frangible core. The interesting thing is that tungsten is much harder than lead, and denser than lead. This fact allows the tungsten to penetrate farther than lead and do more tissue damage even after it has begun to frange.


One bullet can not "Do it all". The nature of tungsten allows a wider performance envelope than lead, especially when dealing with glass, and hard surfaces less than 3 inches thick, like a 'shoulder bone'.


That is, do the bullets which are sufficiently dense to penetrate heavy bone, still do the "explosive" type of wound channel, or do they fully penetrate?

Yes, they do. Typically when I hit an Elk on the front shoulder, there is about a 1/2 inch round hole in front of the shoulder bone, and some major bone fragments blown off the back, or inside of the the shoulder. In this situation, the lungs are liquid goo, and the bullet has completely franged in the chest cavity and there is no exit wound. In a different situation, I double lunged a Moose from a broad side shot, and broke a rib going in with a small entrance wound, and left a volley ball sizd exit wound on the far side. In both cases the bullet franged, but at different depths. On the elk, the franging starts seriously about 4 inches inside, and on the moose, it began about 7 inches in.


Or, is it more or less a trial and error deal where you experiment until you find the perfect core compression that achieves the balance of penetration/explosiveness that you need for a particular situation?

That is exactly what it was. We started with tests on live pigs, and then went to neck shooting elk, and then full on shoulder shots of moose and large bears. Most recently the testing has been on African game with some very large calibers, but I am not involved in those tests, and they are ongoing. We did not just experiment with core compression, we also changed the size of the particles, and the ratio of powders. We even found a combo that would give you a 240 grain 30 cal. boatail that was the size of a 168 Sierra Matchking. This core was very dense, and way too hard for hunting, it acted like a pass through arrow with no broadhead. Small hole going in, and coming out. There was major testing done to find the right compression and density to achieve reliable penetration and frangiblilty at the right depth.

S1

Jeep...Deleted by CalHunter... - Here is a link to a pic, ...Deleted by CalHunter...

http://artactical.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/529608905/m/117105955

ipscshooter

Thanks for the information.