kdvollmer

I am gonna have to call all 3 on this one. Guys/gals (are there any in this discussion here) lets face it. It is possible to get 1 gun from the factory to shoot that well, it is possible to get two, or three for that matter. Though you have to be one lucky SOB to be the guy who does it. Not to mention that you have to be lucky the day on the range. There are so many variables here. ASSUMING THAT HE HAS DONE IT, he is LUCKY that none of the Mr Murphy Variables screwed him up. second. This guy might be that good. Lets face it, your average shooter doesn't shoot well enough to come close to that claim, or to shooting groups that might be close enough to imagine that claim. So lets give some credit, he has to be good to some extent. Even if he shoots .75 in groups at 200, that is still better than most.... Now, to say that he does it consistantly, that is where the BS comes in. To be consistantly that lucky on the range, after getting lucky enough not once, or twice, but on three different rifles, now I might call BS. Has this guy actually done it. Probably once, maybe even twice, but not on the same day for sure.

jtb1967

The web is full of b.s. accuracy stories. This is just another one of them.

ShatoDavis

All I can say is that he is wasting his talents on the internet. He should take his "factory" rifles to a sanctioned BR match. And show up those complete custom rifles that cost nearly $6000.

I mean come on guys, this is pure internet bs.He may have rifles that occasionally shoot that good. But consistantly???? BS.

I've got a Cooper 22-250 that has shot 0.0" groups a few times. Am I going to take it out an say that its a zero rifle? heck no, because the average is probably between .25 and .50". Will it shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards? You bet! Will I read the wind right, hold it in the bags right, squeeze the trigger right, etc to make it do it consistantly? Heck no!

kmunny19

and 3 of them owned by the same person is astounding. to collect 3, 1/4 moa rifles in those calibers would take some serious effort and searching.

Miket_81

I am withmost of you guys had I heard this like you did I would callBS no question.

A little about me. I have a 350YRD rangethat is 800 a few months of the year in my back yard, and a bench set up out of the back of my garage so I can shoot and "dummy shoot" in any weather.

I am somewhat of a collector and very avid shooter. Iusually shoot about 4 times a week and by my primer count shotclose to3500 roundsthis last year. I have a decent sized for my age(26) gun collection. In my safeupstairs alone I have 20 rifles. I keep the ones that I huntand shoot the most in there. My family and I togetherprobably have 3X that many.

I do get a fair amout of timeon thebench due to the load devolopment that I like to do as a hobby and the numberof rifles broght over to sight in and load for.Ihowever, prefer to do my hunting practice off the benchand more offhand, leaning on tree, and the like. Ithas been my goal to become a very good offhandshooter, I amnot where I want to be yet but getting better.

I amvery dedicated to shooting and spend alot of time on the bench just "dry firing" with snap caps trying to not loosethe bull when firing. I have spent hours at a time doing this working on getting my breathing and trigger pull as good as I can.
Iam mainly a hunter right nowbut have a somewhat secretambition to get into competitive shooting someday. I would like to start at silhouette shooting if I feel like I can get good enough to compete.

About the rifles. I acquired them at different times and they have been great shooters from the time I bought them. I bought the SPM 7mm-08 first. When I first bought it I only loaded 140 sierra prohunters infront of 42gr of varget (very first and only loadI tried)and it shot very well, If I rememberright.50-.75 at 100 was the norm. I was very happy with this considering it was a hunting rifle. I know this will sound crazy but I am really not an accuracy nut for my hunting rifles. I like a better than needed solid 1MOA for anything over my varmint rifles and am very content with the 2.5 MOA I get with my 44mag lever. Anyways I probably ran 300 rounds of that load through that rifle. One day I got bored and started tinkering with 120gr bullets and had a box of 140 nosler BT's that I had got in. I had heard that the 7mm-08 really likes H4350 so I started devoloping a load for it. I loaded 5 at a time working up and the hotter the loads got the better it shot. I probably could have gone hotter but stopped at 48gr @ 2800fpswhen the accuracy was unbelievable(LOL!) all 5 tore a hole at 100yrds. I tried another couple groups with it and same thing. So when I shot up the remainder of the Sierras this was the load I used.
The 338-06 SBGM is the second gun I acquired. It was preowned having fired 26 rounds of factory WBY ammo. I started out firing 225AB's though it as I bought a hoard of them cheap from a fella at the campfire. They shot good but nothing crazy good probably .75-.90. I shot 100 this way mostly from field positions to fireform the brass. I had found a deal on the 180BT's at my local shop and thought that it would make a great deer bullet. I bought the entire stock and went to work. I started and finished with RL-15 mostly because I had heard so many say this is the powder for the 338-06. I started at somewhere close to 56gr and worked up. The groups started right at 1" and got smaller as I went up. I ended up at 59gr of RL-15@ 3000-3024 with no pressure signs at all. It pretty much had the same results as the 7mm-08 with everything sub .50 at 100 and when I really beared down and took my time they just made ovals. Makes me shake my head.

The 243 is the gray and stainless ULW. This is the newest one I have owned. I haven't had much time with it. When I first got it I took some of the remaining 65gr V-maxes that I had loaded up for the Super varmint master 243 (great shooter but gone now)that I took prarie dog hunting in SD. They actually shot better out of it than they did out of the super heavy barreled SVM with the 8-32 scope it had on it or at least I shot it better. It was crazy I shot it 15 times and made a group at 100 that you could cover with a nickel and put it away. LaterI loaded a few of the standard hunting load for my friends with 243s with a 100gr bullet and 43.5 gr of H4350 and Sighted it in at 100 and put it away.

Fast forward to about a week before deer season here my father in law and I was doing some testing to see whereour guns were hitting at 200-300. I hadn't really had a chance to shoot it much more since the load devoloping to get dialed in. I remember very clearly and still have the targets and the whitness. I shot 7 3 shot groups at 2004 with the 7mm-08 and 3 with the 338-06 and all 7 were at or under a half inch with the best 2 being a nice cloverleaf. I shot both of them the next day due to the fact that my minnesota uncles that were down for the hunt needed some proving and got the same result.

I admitted on the forum here that until SJ mentioned it I had not shot the 243 at 200yrds and could not claim that I grouped under a half. I agreed.So I pulled it from the safe and grabbed the 3 remaining 243 loads with 85gr TSX's that I had loaded for a friend who had sold the rifle. The rifle had been cleaned since being put away. I fired one shot andmarked it and shot the remaining 2. The 3 shot group including the fouling shot was .709 and the last 2 measured .420. I tried to post a pic of it but couldn't figure out how to. I still have it on my email.
Now is that consistent .50" shooting at 200 no, is the rifle capable, I think it is with the right load if the shooter is.
I think I might have came across a little different than I intended to. Do I think one can just pick up a new ULW and have it shoot .25MOA consistentlywith factory remington express ammo? Of course not. I only have a 5-6 that I would bet can do it and one of them is a $3000 full cusom remington and I probably wouldn't put $$ on the 243 until I had some more timewith it, butItruely think it is very capable.
I also thinkthat somethingthathas made a world of differencein how myguns have shot is theproper torquing of the action screws.

If anyone wan'tto come see or shoot with me I would love it. Ihave peopleover all of the time and would really like for anyone that would like tocome shoot and talk guns to do so.A Mile south of moundville.PM me formy phone number.

DM

So, if someone comes by,would you be willing take a $500.00 bet that you can't take those 3 rifles mentioned in the origional post, and shoot a couple 1/2" groups @ 200yds with each one, right then and there?

DM

jlbspd

Can it be done? OH SURE IT CAN....but i doubt by the average shooter... Consistantly? OH SURE IT CAN....if you had a 150 yard long barrel...3 factoryover the counter rifles all .50@ 200? OH SURE IT CAN....In your dreams...The only thing i see consistant here is the bull **** thats feeding my pegged out BS Meter. IMO

Miket_81

To be honest no, I am not sure I have that much confidence in my shooting right now to bet $500, I am a gambling man but only bet what I can afford to lose. It doesn't take much shooter error to open a group to .75 at 200.
I believe it is 95% shooter 5% gun. I probably should take the bet though that I have only firedone group over .50 at 200in the last 7-8 that I have shot with the 7mm-08 and 338-06.
I would however lay the 3 guns out on a table and let someone pick which one for me to shoot. Shoot 6 3-shot groups and would bet something smaller like $20-$50 that 4 of them would be .500inches or better. Shooting.500 or better66% of the time in my mind is consistency. I would even extend this to my 2 22-250's. Oh and in case there is any confusion I measure center to center and do it by measuring outside to outside and -bullet dia.

Been driving me nuts lately because I haven't been able to get out and shoot the last couple days due to a 2" sheet of ice on everything.

Here is a picture of the 243 target I shot for SJ. Only had 3 shot, hadn't shot this load before. I shot the first(fouling shot)and marked it. Shot the next 2 as you can see. 3 shot group of .709 and 2 of .420. So yes I think with some time this gun is very capable of becoming a .25MOA gun.

1SHOT_1KILL

I personally have some reservations about calling BS, without knowing the whole truth or all the facts. Seems that some are all toquick to call BS about everything and anything they may not agree with, have personally witnessed, or personally done.

Seems some folks are wrapped around the axle onabout theuse of the word "consistently". Webster defines it as:1archaic :possessing firmness or coherence 2 a:marked by harmony, regularity, or steady continuity;free from variation or contradiction.

Now, ifdoes it mean "free from vaiation" as in ALWAYS or does it mean "marked by regularity"? As I see it, when it comes toguns and shooting, it meanswith some degree of regularity. Now, to the degree of regularity (e.i. consistently), iswide open to personal interpretation.

BTW, a consistent.50"(1/2") rifle at 200yds would be a total waste of time competing in a sanctioned IBS or NBRSA shoot. To be competitive you would have to have a rifle that is capable of shooting groups halfthat size or tighter, with at least 80-90% consistency, or better.

Do I think a factory hunting rifle, with properly tuned handloads, can shoot.50" (1/2") groups at 200yds? Absolutely. Do I think is can be done 100% of the time? No. 75% of the time? No. 50% of the time? At best. 25% of the time. Probably close to a real world figure. All this is assuming that the shooter themself is up to the task.

Miket_81

To meconsistently means on average or regularly or more than it doesn't. I would bet that if I hung a target @200and over time shot say a 100 rounds at it more than65-75 of them would go inside a half inch center to center or .784 outside dia.

I would agree on the compeitive shooting thing. Most of my guns shoot into 1.5 or so at 200 and that is what just set the new record at 1000yrds. 0.50 shooting at 200 wouldn't even compete or even start to. While I am suprised at how well it shoots I don't think it is at all competition good.

I know right now I lack the skill and the money to compete in any kind of bench rest competition. In the next 5 years or so I would like to get into silhouette shooting and see how I could compete and see what it would take to do so. I feel like I am driven enough to make myself good enough.

I know people knock them but you have to remember these are not just typical factory guns. They MSPR at $1789 and typically sell at stores for $1300 or so although I paid alot less for mine. They have a barrel made by krieger and a nice alu pillar bedded stock made by B&C.

What is funny is I didn't buy these to be great benchrest guns I bought them to be great hunting rifles. And they are great hunting guns, I wouldn't have any less confidence in them or think a bit less of them if the best they would do is 1.25 MOA. The hunting and shooting that I have done has showed me that that is all and then some that is needed to take game as far asanyone except an elite fewshould be shooting and by that I mean 400yrds.
I think alot of guys go to the shop and buy the latest super flat mag and put a huge scope on it and sight it in at 100yrds where their computer program tells them they should to be dead on at 400-500 yrds and go hunting without ever even shooting at those distances.

It may sound funny but I really don't like the trend of every hunter having to have big game hunting rifles that shoot .5MOAor better. It is just me personally but it drives me nuts whenguys spend all the time on the bench trying for the itty bitty groups and then they can't shoot a deer off hand at 50yrds or completly miss that deer or elk at 175yrds while leaning against a tree from the tree stand. A gun that shoots 1.5MOA is no less effective as one that shoots 0.0 MOA for big game hunting.

Although it may seem that way I hardly ever change my hunting loads to make them more accurate, I just change to bullets that I think will offer better terminal performance and sometimes better accuracy arrives along with it and I am not one to complain and I am not going to adjust them to shoot worse.

I shoot more than anything off hand and I felt like it payed off this antlerless when I downed my doe at just under 100yrds with it quartering at me. I just had about 2 seconds before the deer was gone it was in a very narrow window. One shot one kill off hand, I know not special but made me a little more confidend none the less.