.40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
04-03-2009, 06:46 AM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: va USA
Posts: 580
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
ORIGINAL: MM4L
I have a Ruger PC-4 carbine and it takes boar all the time, big (250#) and small (75#). I have taken them at 20 to 80 yards. I also hunt with a group of cops that routinely take coastal deer and hogs at <30 yards with a .40 pistol. Just because some people say they "wouldn't" hunt with less that a magnum round or a rifle round does not mean it won't get the job done. The key is accurate shot placement. If you can shoot a 2" group at 80 yards, you will have no problem. From the side, I usually aim low on the shoulder, a couple of inches above where the front leg meets the chest and have ended up hitting the dip in the spinal column, the heart or the lungs. All were fatal with a single shot. I had one shot from behind and above at 40 yards. He was running and I aimed between the shoulder blades. It broke his back and dropped him on the spot, but did not kill. I advanced and took a 2nd shot at 10 yards that killed him.
In my book, one properly placed round is superior to 3 or 4 poorly placed rounds of any caliber.
True enough, the .40 S&W was designed to drop a mere human and hogs do have a shield or armor of cartlidge and scar tissue that people don't have, but I have seen .40 rounds out of a pistol go clean through the steel trunk of a police car. Like the .45 ACP, the .40 S&W does not achieve it's maximum potential in a pistol barrel. An 11-16" barrel gives you maximum velocity, maximum energy and the most accuracy from these rounds.
So, go kill a hog with your .40 carbine and post a picture here for all of the non-believers.
I have a Ruger PC-4 carbine and it takes boar all the time, big (250#) and small (75#). I have taken them at 20 to 80 yards. I also hunt with a group of cops that routinely take coastal deer and hogs at <30 yards with a .40 pistol. Just because some people say they "wouldn't" hunt with less that a magnum round or a rifle round does not mean it won't get the job done. The key is accurate shot placement. If you can shoot a 2" group at 80 yards, you will have no problem. From the side, I usually aim low on the shoulder, a couple of inches above where the front leg meets the chest and have ended up hitting the dip in the spinal column, the heart or the lungs. All were fatal with a single shot. I had one shot from behind and above at 40 yards. He was running and I aimed between the shoulder blades. It broke his back and dropped him on the spot, but did not kill. I advanced and took a 2nd shot at 10 yards that killed him.
In my book, one properly placed round is superior to 3 or 4 poorly placed rounds of any caliber.
True enough, the .40 S&W was designed to drop a mere human and hogs do have a shield or armor of cartlidge and scar tissue that people don't have, but I have seen .40 rounds out of a pistol go clean through the steel trunk of a police car. Like the .45 ACP, the .40 S&W does not achieve it's maximum potential in a pistol barrel. An 11-16" barrel gives you maximum velocity, maximum energy and the most accuracy from these rounds.
So, go kill a hog with your .40 carbine and post a picture here for all of the non-believers.
Hogs can be both difficult and dangerous, it's irresponsable to suggest his 40 is a better choice.
04-03-2009, 07:08 AM
#12
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 4
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
No, I am not joking. I have seen plenty of .308's go through and through a hog and require extensive tracking, sometimes to no avail. Whereas a hollowpoint .40 S&W not only delivers the full kinetic energy, it is less likely to over penetrate the target. Which delivers more "punch" a 30 caliber round that goes through and through or a 40 caliber round that opens up to 60+ caliber and stops inside the target?
I own .270's, .308's and 30-06 rifles and I have had the most fun and the greatest success with a .40 S&W carbine. This is partly because all of my rifle caliber guns are scoped and my carbine has ghost ring sights. I am able to get on target more quickly with iron sights and I am shooting at closer distances. I have NEVER had to track a hog shot with a .40 and as I said, it is more important which gun you are most accurate with, not the caliber.
If I were hunting in terrain where I was taking 100-300 yard shots, yes, I would use the .308 or 30-06. But, in dense terrain where you will take shots at under 80 yards, I think the .40 is an outstanding choice.
Just because you wouldn't try it does not mean it is wrong. The .40 is a hell of a round and is quick to be underestimated by hunters because it was not designed for game, it was designed for humans.
I own .270's, .308's and 30-06 rifles and I have had the most fun and the greatest success with a .40 S&W carbine. This is partly because all of my rifle caliber guns are scoped and my carbine has ghost ring sights. I am able to get on target more quickly with iron sights and I am shooting at closer distances. I have NEVER had to track a hog shot with a .40 and as I said, it is more important which gun you are most accurate with, not the caliber.
If I were hunting in terrain where I was taking 100-300 yard shots, yes, I would use the .308 or 30-06. But, in dense terrain where you will take shots at under 80 yards, I think the .40 is an outstanding choice.
Just because you wouldn't try it does not mean it is wrong. The .40 is a hell of a round and is quick to be underestimated by hunters because it was not designed for game, it was designed for humans.
04-03-2009, 07:42 AM
#13
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,040
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
ORIGINAL: MM4L
Which delivers more "punch" a 30 caliber round that goes through and through or a 40 caliber round that opens up to 60+ caliber and stops inside the target?
Which delivers more "punch" a 30 caliber round that goes through and through or a 40 caliber round that opens up to 60+ caliber and stops inside the target?
04-03-2009, 08:08 AM
#14
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 4
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
Again, you missed my point. A 30 cal. ball round that overpenetrates is not delivering it's full punch.. the energy is going THROUGH the target and out to whatever it hits beyond the target. The wound channel on a .40 S&W hollowpoint is devastating and while the .40 S&W has less muzzle velocity and less mass, it is the wound channel and delivering ALL of the potential energy (that energy that is LOST when a round exits) that is key here.
I know many people cannot wrap their minds around the physics of real-world wound ballistics, particularly hunters that tend to think "bigger is always better." The fact is, if you have never seen the results of a .40 S&W on a flesh target, you don't really know what it will do. It is easy to jump to conclusions and fall back on "common knowledge" but basic physics will trump you every time.
The fact is, the .308 is a great round. One I would not hesitate to use at long distances. But, a .40 is truly designed to kill and is more than adequate for hogs at under 80 yards. Granted, most of my kills have been within 20 or 30 yards, but that is because of the terrain I am hunting in. At that range, a .308 tends to overpenetrate and (in my experience) maims large game unless the shot is accurately places in a vital area, partially because it is not delivering it's full potential punch and partially because the wound channel does not have time to develop due to bullet speed. The much larger wound channel created by the slower .40 hollowpoint makes more "close" shots lethal and reduces tracking or maiming.
If you can't understand that, you can continue killing mosquitoes with a nail gun and write me off as the crackpot.
I know many people cannot wrap their minds around the physics of real-world wound ballistics, particularly hunters that tend to think "bigger is always better." The fact is, if you have never seen the results of a .40 S&W on a flesh target, you don't really know what it will do. It is easy to jump to conclusions and fall back on "common knowledge" but basic physics will trump you every time.
The fact is, the .308 is a great round. One I would not hesitate to use at long distances. But, a .40 is truly designed to kill and is more than adequate for hogs at under 80 yards. Granted, most of my kills have been within 20 or 30 yards, but that is because of the terrain I am hunting in. At that range, a .308 tends to overpenetrate and (in my experience) maims large game unless the shot is accurately places in a vital area, partially because it is not delivering it's full potential punch and partially because the wound channel does not have time to develop due to bullet speed. The much larger wound channel created by the slower .40 hollowpoint makes more "close" shots lethal and reduces tracking or maiming.
If you can't understand that, you can continue killing mosquitoes with a nail gun and write me off as the crackpot.
04-03-2009, 09:02 AM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: va USA
Posts: 580
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
ORIGINAL: MM4L
I know many people cannot wrap their minds around the physics of real-world wound ballistics, particularly hunters that tend to think "bigger is always better." The fact is, if you have never seen the results of a .40 S&W on a flesh target, you don't really know what it will do. It is easy to jump to conclusions and fall back on "common knowledge" but basic physics will trump you every time.
I know many people cannot wrap their minds around the physics of real-world wound ballistics, particularly hunters that tend to think "bigger is always better." The fact is, if you have never seen the results of a .40 S&W on a flesh target, you don't really know what it will do. It is easy to jump to conclusions and fall back on "common knowledge" but basic physics will trump you every time.
I can wrap my mind around the physics and you're wrong. A 308 bullet passing through a hog STILL expends more engery in the target than a 40 that expends all of its energy inside the animal. Why... because the 308 starts with massive engery advantage overa 40.
I have shot and killed numerous smaller pests withmy 40 and I still wouldn't dream of using a 40 on hogsif I had also had 308 in the safe.
I'm not a "bigger is better" type of hunter but I absolutely do believe that every hunter should always use enough gun to get the job done. What is enough gun... well each person needs to decide that for themself and IMO a 40 for hog hunting is not enough gun.
04-03-2009, 09:39 AM
#16
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,040
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
When did we suddenly start talking about "ball rounds"? First, nobody hunts with FMJ .308's. Second, it seems rather crazy to think that a round with only 500 ft lbs of energy is somehow dumping more energy into an animal than a round with nearly 3000 ft lbs of energy, even though the more potent round goes "through and through."
There's quite a bit of literature on wound ballistics, and I thought that the theory that a bullet that dumps all of its energy into the target (by failing to fully penetrate) is somehow superior had been written off as myth. Read pages 5-7 of this:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
As far as your contention that ...at 20-30 yards... "a .308 tends to overpenetrate and (in my experience) maims large game unless the shot is accurately places in a vital area," I guess I'll have to cede to your experience. At 20-30 yards, I've never had any problem "accurately placing a shot in a vital area."
There's quite a bit of literature on wound ballistics, and I thought that the theory that a bullet that dumps all of its energy into the target (by failing to fully penetrate) is somehow superior had been written off as myth. Read pages 5-7 of this:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
As far as your contention that ...at 20-30 yards... "a .308 tends to overpenetrate and (in my experience) maims large game unless the shot is accurately places in a vital area," I guess I'll have to cede to your experience. At 20-30 yards, I've never had any problem "accurately placing a shot in a vital area."
04-03-2009, 10:28 AM
#17
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 4
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
I respect your opinion.
That said, the 47th edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook lists "optimum game weight" (OGW) for a standard 180 gr. solid base ballistic tip partition-type .308 round at 200 yards is 546 pounds. They don't list an OGW for the .308 at under 200 yards. I have calculated the OGW of a 180 gr. JHP .40 S&W round at 50 yards (fired from a 16" bbl carbine) to be 276 pounds. At 20 yards it is 303 pounds. The foot pound energy of a similar .40 is easily double that of a hunting arrow fired from an average hunting-grade bow (or crossbow). So, any argument you have against hunting with a .40 would go double for archers.
The last 3 hogs I took were under 150 pounds (as small as 75#) and all were single shot kills. I have taken 200# hogs with the .40 at 65 yards with one shot. I have never had a .40 overpenetrate and I have never seen a .308 or 30-06 that did not overpenetrate a hog. In fact, I have fired the kill shot on a maimed hog that was shot with a 30-06. The 30-06 went through and through while the .40 stopped the hog in it's tracks and the round remained in the carcass.
There is no way to accurately measure the energy LOST as a result of overpenetration from one shot to the next. I think you would agree that the .308 is still "lethal" to background targets and similarly, the .40 is less likely to overpenetrate. This means the .40 is more likely to deliver all of it's energy and admittedly, while it is significantly less, it could be much more energy on target if the .308 is moving so fast that it does not create as severe a wound channel and carries that extra (excess?) energy through the target and out the other side.
There is more to wound ballistics than muzzle velocity and foot pounds of energy. By your logic, we should be hunting hogs with .223's!
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
That said, the 47th edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook lists "optimum game weight" (OGW) for a standard 180 gr. solid base ballistic tip partition-type .308 round at 200 yards is 546 pounds. They don't list an OGW for the .308 at under 200 yards. I have calculated the OGW of a 180 gr. JHP .40 S&W round at 50 yards (fired from a 16" bbl carbine) to be 276 pounds. At 20 yards it is 303 pounds. The foot pound energy of a similar .40 is easily double that of a hunting arrow fired from an average hunting-grade bow (or crossbow). So, any argument you have against hunting with a .40 would go double for archers.
The last 3 hogs I took were under 150 pounds (as small as 75#) and all were single shot kills. I have taken 200# hogs with the .40 at 65 yards with one shot. I have never had a .40 overpenetrate and I have never seen a .308 or 30-06 that did not overpenetrate a hog. In fact, I have fired the kill shot on a maimed hog that was shot with a 30-06. The 30-06 went through and through while the .40 stopped the hog in it's tracks and the round remained in the carcass.
There is no way to accurately measure the energy LOST as a result of overpenetration from one shot to the next. I think you would agree that the .308 is still "lethal" to background targets and similarly, the .40 is less likely to overpenetrate. This means the .40 is more likely to deliver all of it's energy and admittedly, while it is significantly less, it could be much more energy on target if the .308 is moving so fast that it does not create as severe a wound channel and carries that extra (excess?) energy through the target and out the other side.
There is more to wound ballistics than muzzle velocity and foot pounds of energy. By your logic, we should be hunting hogs with .223's!
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
04-03-2009, 10:46 AM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: va USA
Posts: 580
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
ORIGINAL: MM4L
I respect your opinion.
That said, the 47th edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook lists "optimum game weight" (OGW) for a standard 180 gr. solid base ballistic tip partition-type .308 round at 200 yards is 546 pounds. They don't list an OGW for the .308 at under 200 yards. I have calculated the OGW of a 180 gr. JHP .40 S&W round at 50 yards (fired from a 16" bbl carbine) to be 276 pounds. At 20 yards it is 303 pounds. The foot pound energy of a similar .40 is easily double that of a hunting arrow fired from an average hunting-grade bow (or crossbow). So, any argument you have against hunting with a .40 would go double for archers.
The last 3 hogs I took were under 150 pounds (as small as 75#) and all were single shot kills. I have taken 200# hogs with the .40 at 65 yards with one shot. I have never had a .40 overpenetrate and I have never seen a .308 or 30-06 that did not overpenetrate a hog. In fact, I have fired the kill shot on a maimed hog that was shot with a 30-06. The 30-06 went through and through while the .40 stopped the hog in it's tracks and the round remained in the carcass.
There is no way to accurately measure the energy LOST as a result of overpenetration from one shot to the next. I think you would agree that the .308 is still "lethal" to background targets and similarly, the .40 is less likely to overpenetrate. This means the .40 is more likely to deliver all of it's energy and admittedly, while it is significantly less, it could be much more energy on target if the .308 is moving so fast that it does not create as severe a wound channel and carries that extra (excess?) energy through the target and out the other side.
There is more to wound ballistics than muzzle velocity and foot pounds of energy. By your logic, we should be hunting hogs with .223's!
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I respect your opinion.
That said, the 47th edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook lists "optimum game weight" (OGW) for a standard 180 gr. solid base ballistic tip partition-type .308 round at 200 yards is 546 pounds. They don't list an OGW for the .308 at under 200 yards. I have calculated the OGW of a 180 gr. JHP .40 S&W round at 50 yards (fired from a 16" bbl carbine) to be 276 pounds. At 20 yards it is 303 pounds. The foot pound energy of a similar .40 is easily double that of a hunting arrow fired from an average hunting-grade bow (or crossbow). So, any argument you have against hunting with a .40 would go double for archers.
The last 3 hogs I took were under 150 pounds (as small as 75#) and all were single shot kills. I have taken 200# hogs with the .40 at 65 yards with one shot. I have never had a .40 overpenetrate and I have never seen a .308 or 30-06 that did not overpenetrate a hog. In fact, I have fired the kill shot on a maimed hog that was shot with a 30-06. The 30-06 went through and through while the .40 stopped the hog in it's tracks and the round remained in the carcass.
There is no way to accurately measure the energy LOST as a result of overpenetration from one shot to the next. I think you would agree that the .308 is still "lethal" to background targets and similarly, the .40 is less likely to overpenetrate. This means the .40 is more likely to deliver all of it's energy and admittedly, while it is significantly less, it could be much more energy on target if the .308 is moving so fast that it does not create as severe a wound channel and carries that extra (excess?) energy through the target and out the other side.
There is more to wound ballistics than muzzle velocity and foot pounds of energy. By your logic, we should be hunting hogs with .223's!
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
04-03-2009, 11:45 AM
#19
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,040
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
I'm curious, do you have any resources proving this theory about "overpenetration"?
I disagree with your premise that the .40 is better because it "expends all its energy in the game" and that the .308 is worse because it "overpenetrates". Game is killed by the destruction of tissue caused by the bullet. Energy transfer is a secondary, and very minor consideration. The game is not killed by energy transfer, hence your statement earlier about archers.
As we have eliminated the ".308 ball" from consideration, I believe that a .308 hunting round (i.e. some sort of expanding round designed for moderate sized game, like the Remington PSP Core Lokt) will cause greater damage inside deer/hog sized game than a .40 S&W.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/energy_transfer.htm
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...ics/myths.html
I disagree with your premise that the .40 is better because it "expends all its energy in the game" and that the .308 is worse because it "overpenetrates". Game is killed by the destruction of tissue caused by the bullet. Energy transfer is a secondary, and very minor consideration. The game is not killed by energy transfer, hence your statement earlier about archers.
As we have eliminated the ".308 ball" from consideration, I believe that a .308 hunting round (i.e. some sort of expanding round designed for moderate sized game, like the Remington PSP Core Lokt) will cause greater damage inside deer/hog sized game than a .40 S&W.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/energy_transfer.htm
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...ics/myths.html
04-04-2009, 05:13 AM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: S.W. Pa.-- Heart in North Central Pa. mountains-
Posts: 2,600
RE: .40 caliber carbine for HOG HUNTING.
...............Uhhhhh........Your analogy to archery is totally off base. It's common knowledge that arrows kill by hemmorhage(sp), not by energy shock. You're comparing apples and oranges.
Also, I'll take a gun that gives pass-thru's every time. Can't argue the fact that it had enough energy to make it completely through the animal vs. not enough energy to do that. Common sense + Physics...........
Also, I'll take a gun that gives pass-thru's every time. Can't argue the fact that it had enough energy to make it completely through the animal vs. not enough energy to do that. Common sense + Physics...........