Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I thought it would be interesting to see how our concealed carry membersmight react when faced with certain situations, what should they do? What are they legally able to do? What would YOU do?

Here's the scene:

You're walking around the house it's around 7:30PM, the game is coming on in a little while and you realize you don't have a stinkin' thing in the house to snack on.[:-] Its a nice night so you decide to take a quick walk up the block to your local Quickie Mart, its a walk you've made a thousand times, its your neighborhood but you still decide to slip your (brand X) concealed carry gun into it's holster or pocket for the walk.
You get to the market and there is only one car in the small parking lot and that belongs to Fred the 40 something clerk behind the counter. You see Fred pretty much everyday and know each other by name........"Hey Fred! gonna get out of here in time for the game!?" He mumbles and smiles and calls you a dirty word because he knows you know he's there til midnight.
You head down the last isle and pour over the endless bags of flavored potato chips and pretzels breifly contemplating the nutritional value of the giant bag of corn chips you just picked up. Hmmmmmm Maybe some peanuts, where are the peanuts? You head around the oversized display of 2 liter soda bottles on sale for $.99 and the magazine rack catches your eye.........Oh look at that, Maxim's "Hot 100" year end special. Sweet!:D
You aren't aware of the man who came in the store as you reach for the magazine, and since you walked here, he doesn't know you're there either.

You are 1/2 way down the pictorial for Angelina Jolie and you hear it. Loud shouting, panicked shouting. Its so loud and out of place it startles you for a second while your mind tries to grasp what is happening. Instinctively you walk to the end of the isle and there it is, your worst nightmare.[:o]

There is a large man standing there arm extended aiming a revolver at Fred. In all the fast forward confusion and adrenaline you are shocked that your mind focuses on the gun, a snub nosed something or other. You are that close you can see the glare of the overhead lights reflecting off the blued cylinder.
Your mind races as the armed man continues to shout at Fred who is pleading for his life while fumbling with the register.
"I told you to open the damn register NOW! or so help me!......."

My God you realize you can't be more than 10ft from all of this but you didn't make a sound. You are at a solid 45 degree angle to the man just out of his peripheral vision, he has no idea in the world that you are standing there. Its this odd swimmy feeling of things moving really fast yet in slow motion at the same time.

In the matter of literally a few short seconds that all this is taking place you suddenly snap to the realization that you too are armed. There is nothing behind the man but a bank of generic cigarettes and scratch off lottery tickets.
You could pull that weapon silently and take careful aim,he's so close you couldn't miss. You instinctively remove the gun from his holster suddenly aware of the deadly serious feel of it. Its not that comfy fun at the range feeling anymore. Your hand tightens on the grip............with just enough time to run it through your mind. The concious thought: WHAT DO I DO!?[:-]
At just that moment Fred notices you and you make eye contact.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

At the moment Fred makes my eye contact it is an unintended give-away to the perp that someone else is present, and if my training holds and I don't freeze I would prepare for the moment that the perp would turn on me, and when he did turn towards me with his weapon swinging my way, I am afraid that I would be forced to shoot him ... instinctively forced to shoot him.
In my state (Michigan) I'm aware I'd probably be arrested, processed, and maybe have all my guns siezed from my house.
But I think that is what I'd end up doing in the scenario you depict.
I'm aware that I should probably take cover and wait it out, but that could be at the risk of seeing Fred killed or losing my life, or both. It is hard to realy say until you're are faced with it, and your scenario doesn't take it to the next few crucial moments....not knowing if the guy just wanted the cash, or if he was a nutty meth kook with no coordination of the trigger finger.......tough call but if I already had the weapon in my hand I'd prepare for Fred's eye contact to give me away.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Great job Fred! When Fred made eye contact with me, the robber would most likely instinctively turn his head to see what Fred was eyeballing. By the time I'd taken aim, I would have shot his knee caps... or the general area. He is an immediate threat to me... I'm not sure if shooting him without reasoning first is against the law, but I'm not about to try to reason with him; its my life I'm dealing withhere. I could get shot in the process. A shot below the waste is not attempted murder, so thats what I would do. I'm cant tell you what I'd do next... it depends. Will he drop to the floor and release the weapon? Will he drop to the floor and NOT drop the weapon and aim at me?

A tough scenario, I'll give ya that Matt! :D

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

After making the decision to shoot, it would be shoot to kill, no way would I chance a wounding shot. The lone ranger I ain't.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I wouldn't have made it to WHAT DO I DO?

I would have either been reloading OR I would still be looking at the magazine, unaware of the robbery.:)

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Hey Chris.... Welcome to the wonderful world of getting your butt hauled into civil court, because the scumbag you just crippled by shooting him in the knees is going to sue you... If someone is turning toward you with hostile intent and a gun in his hands, you don't shoot to wound. You aim center mass and you shoot until the threat is eliminated.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Absolutely !!!!!!

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

So I should drop him dead?

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

This is a good question.

I'm going to ask my dad, who is a police officer and has a concealed carry permit tomorrow on the ride to our hunting camp for some fishing and shooting.

I'll post what he says he would do and what the law says he should do. Should break up the 2 hour ride nicely :D.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I tossed this question to a friend of mine that is a cop this past year while at the shot show since I carry EVERYWHERE i go. You can shoot this scumbag in this situation because you are STOPPING a violent felony in progress. You only have to believe that Fred's life was in danger. I was told, as a person with a CCW, you have a moral obligation in THIS situation to stop it.
#2) many states, To include michigan i believe, have passed laws that state you do not have to retreat this situation. You can stand your ground. Because you are already in the store, you are part of this situation. If you were outside the store, you may not get the red carpet treatment for going in and shooting though. If you are outside the store, you need to be calling the police first.
As soon as bad guy turns in your direction, gun in hand, there should be no question, drop his butt. Remember this if nothing else if you are ever in this situation. "I was scared for my (and or Fred's) life. I have never been more scared than I was right then." If this bad guy is willing to break the law and rob a store at gun point, then you have to believe that he will use it. Are you willing to gamble with your life, or the life of somebody else that this criminal won't shoot.
In most states deadly force is authorized if you believe that your life, or the life of another person is in immenent danger. (remember the above statment... I was scared.......)
Not sure who said it, you shoot this scumbag to wound him, unfortunatly, in alot of places he can sue you, and even though he was pointing a gun at the store owner, or you, he can sue you in civil court. Check your local laws on this. There are a few great states that do not allow these suits to happen. You always shoot to kill him. 2 reasons, 1) I think we all have been taught since we all started shooting, you never point a gun at a person unless you are prepared to kill them. NEVER..
2) If you kill him, your one side of the story carrys more weight since it is the only side told.

Hope that this helps some and doesn't confuse too much.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

In the scenerio described, I would draw my weapon. Chances are, I'm smarter, more prepared and thinking more clearly than the bad guy!What happened next would depend onhim! If he made me shoot,I would shoot to kill. With Fred as my backup, chances would be good, I would not even go to jail.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

The prosecuting attorney just ate your attorney for lunch. If you intentionally shot to the lower part of the body you weren't in fear for your life. You have officially injured someone unnecessarily. You are screwed.

Sucks but likely true.

Tom

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I'm not going to say what I would do or not do, but I will tell you this: If any of you do pull the trigger, when you get in that court room,you shot to disable him or you shot to protect your own life or you shot to stop his assault. Never, and I stress NEVER say you "shot to kill"

Just my 2 cents

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I thought it would be interesting to see how our concealed carry membersmight react when faced with certain situations, what should they do? What are they legally able to do? What would YOU do?


Matt, I don't think anyone can TELL you what they'd do under those circumstances until they've actually been in such circumstances and have had a chance to SEE what their reaction is! The same goes for combat situations.

There's many a hero who said "IF, THEN I'D....." and then when "IF" became "IS", their reaction was entirely different than what they SAID they'd do! Some did well, others didn't! If one is well-trained for such encounters, then one is likely to react as he/she was trained to do. If one is UNTRAINED and inexperienced in such encounters, what happens next is unpredictable. In such a scenario, you just don't have time to think about what to do, and choose from among several alternatives!

"The best plan in the world doesn't survive first contact with the enemy"!!

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I have always been taught, if you pull a weapon on a person, you better use it.........They can take it away from you and kill you in self defence with your own weapon.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

In Oklahoma we have the make my day law, and I believe this would qualify. The perp has the ability to kill Fred, and potentially me, I'm not waiting to find out. I would unload on him and be done with it. You see, at the end of the day I'm going home, and poor Fred shouldn't be at the hands of some thug.

As the old saying goes, it's better to be Judged by 12 then carried by 6. ;)
Seriously though, that is why our law was created if I truly believed the man would shoot Fred or myself I wouldn't hesitate. Now, it is a different scenario if the perp is 15???????????

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

This is going to sound cold as hell to some, but 15 doesn't change anything. A real gun, is a real gun, and it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger,an adult, or a 15 year old kid.the result is still the same. That might make living with it harder, but I am not willing to get shot just beacuse they look 15. I said it before, if they are robbing a store, and using a gun to do it, commiting this illegal violent crime, then why would you believe that they won't use that gun. Age has nothing to do with it.

Lets look at a little history:

Colombine....need I say more

Seems that those kids shot execution style here recently in the news, one of their shooters was a teen age kid. Just food for thought.

I used to be an Army recruiter outside of oakland, a guy I was working with was shot shortly after i left recruiting duty and wasn't able to join. The shooter, some little punk gangbanger.


TO eldequello: you're right in saying,none of us knowhowwe will react in this situation. But regardless of age, itis stillthe innocent vs the criminal, which is why I BELIEVE I could still shoot. Lord, I hope that I never have to find out.

TO robbcaman: i agree, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I am certainly prepare to say I would take some sort of cover and tell him to drop it. If there was ANY other movement I would squeeze a minimum of 3 starting at center mass and going up (neck - head).

BUT! A couple of things factor in ............

1. Exactly what kind of scratch off tickets are we talking about here?

2. Has Fred ever tried to overcharge me or short change me?

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I am unfortunately not a CCW holder yet because our county sheriff is a pain in...
But, based on my 20 years in the military there would be no doubt. As soon as the robber's gun was safely turned off of Fred, I'd double tap to the chest.
The surveillance video would vindicate you.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

No one can say for sure what they'll do!!!! Until you are put in that situation...

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Let me ask this...if the robber swings towards me with his gun extended, I think I would be slapping some .380's at him. Fred is my witness that he wheeled around at me, gun extended. Now, just for the sake of argument, what if he realized my presence, told me to drop my weapon, or Fred was dead. Do I have the right, legally, to fill the back of his shirt with holes? Remember, Fred is directly in front of him, and I am somewhere off to the rear, about 45 degs. He never turns to address me directly, just commands me, and never takes the gun off Fred.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I know what you are saying, but what if it was a 15 year old and the gun turned out to be a fake. Or worse yet, he was stealing the money to get his sick little brother a treatment his family couldn't afford. I think most (myself included) assume this is a dangerous killer, but what if it is not? Would this change your attitude on killing him??? After thinking about the situation I may try to get him to drop the gun, if he didn't then he is dead.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

In my experience you would engage the would be robber. He is a threat to Fred, yourself, and any persons he would encounter in his flight from the scene. I would begin shooting as soon as soon as you clearly identified the threat (i.e. revolver) and would only stop shooting once the threat is neutralized. I concur with all who have said that you have no duty to retreat in this scenario. Also the civil implications of your actions should never enter your head. The Supreme court has consistently ruled that you are justified in situations such as this even if the firearm is not realistic, functioning, ect. It goes to your state of mind at the time of the incident not four years later. The cliche "judged by ten not carried by six" holds true in this situtation. My advice would be two in chest one in head.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

me one of two things i would at that distance shoot him about three or four times or i wloud draw on his back right by his spine and heart walk slowly closer to him then the last thing he hears is my 9mm hollow point enter his brain

now for legaly wether i can nor not i will not nor would i ever let someone pull a gun on someone if there is even a chance in h*ll of them shooting some one wether i am armed or not and if someone pulls a gun out that is chance enough for me he would be died
also the reason i might think of getting closer is i am a good shoot but would not wont a strey to hit fred because then i would have to get to know the next cashier

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

In Florida you can "put yourself in the victimsshoes" and legally defend their lives with lethal force just like you would if your own life was being threatened. You also have no legal duty to retreat from this scenario in the state of Florida.

In other words assuming I could kill him with out killing Fred at the same time the robber would get shot in the back.



Not my problem and I would not feel bad killing them in this scenario.

No I would not attempt to reason with him at all. The robber just knowing you were armed would likely only end in one of two ways. Either he freaks out and starts shooting or he gets scared and runs away possibly shooting on the way out the store. I am not willing to risk getting shot becauseI might feel bad that I shot someone else.


Do not pull your firearm unless you know that you are prepared to kill another human being with it. And once you have made the decision to pull your firearm DO NOT HESITATE to pull the trigger. Talking and reasoning is out the window at this point.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

As soon as I realized this was happening I would take a crouch stance, and draw on him real slowly so as not to make any noise. Then I would give a loud "DROP YOUR WEAPON" as soon as Fred made eye contact with me. As the perp spins to engage me I would let a double tap go center mass. If the perp listens an drops his weapon I would kick it out of the way and have him get face first on the floor all spread out and hold him at gunpoint till the authorities arrived.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Give our courts and law enforcerment some slack. They are not stupid and they are not out to get the good guy! I know we have to watch our ass and go by the book, but I don't carry a gun to "not use it." If I think my life is in jepordy, I'm gonna smoke the bad guy and be glad I'm alive and glad I live in a country where I can carry a gun and defend myself! I know there can be split second decisions to be made, but I'm gonna trust my instinct and go with my gut, and put faith in our judicial system. I'm 48 years old and I've never had a problem with it yet!

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

If you ever do have to answer a lawyer asking if you shoot to kill, just tell him no, you shoot to live.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

If I'm standing behind the magazine rack while clutching the last issue of this months Deer & Deer Hunting magazine the Robber is as good as dead.....cause Fred don't accept master card especially if he has a hole in his head! ;)

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Sure, nobody wants to shoot a 15 year old kid. But it still comes down to whether or not you are willing to gamble with Freds life, or yourown. Read the scenario, you have your gun drawn and Fred makes eye contact with you. What do you think that armed criminal is going to do, not bother to look and see.
As far as the gun turning out to be a fake. Until he s down, and somebody canpick it up and see, that guy is still commiting a felony act of Armed Robbery. And as far as what the money is for....cold as it may sound, that is irrelevant. Even if there is a sick little brother, thereare childrens hospitals to help kids like that. Look into the Shriners. IT IS STILL ARMED ROBBERY. IT IS STILL ILLEGAL. If somebody has a gun and are robbing this store that I am in, it is not my responsibility to be like " hey kid, what'cha need that money for" and to reason with him. He has made a concious choice to ROB at GUNPOINT this store. At that age, everybody knows that is wrong and illegal.

See back when I lived in California, and applied for a CCW, and because it was California, it was denied, I continued to try to get it. I was talking with several guys I knew on the Sheriffs Department about carrying...etc. I made a comment that I wasn't looking to carry 100% of the time and to be some gun toting danger to society, lookng to be the vigilante. They told me that if I were to give it to me, that they would hope that I would carry all the time. No sense in giving a permit not to use it. (read this didn't say they wanted me to be the crazy guy vigilante, but somebody that would carry in just this situation.)

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

No a shot below is not attempted murder... its malicious wounding with a deadly weapon... and if you openly admit you were not trying to kill him and you hit the femoral artery and he bleeds to death, then you can get sent up for voluntary manslaughter or even 2nd degree murder.....

Always shoot center mass... you are stopping a threat to your life with gunfire... plain and simple.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I would have shot him outright.... soon as he goes down, or his weapoin is dropped... I'm getting Fred and myself out of the store and calling 911 from the payphone outfront, or the cell phone. I'm staying put unti authorities arrive, and willingly surrender and cooperate.

Soon as that weapon is dropped, or the robber is incapacitated... threat is removed. If he dies... he does... if not... good for him... I'm alive, so is Fred... mission accomplished.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Hammer pair to the chest;)

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I'm just tring to play devils advocate. At the end of the day I am going home no matter what. Most likely I would go for the kill and put the perp down and live with whatever consequences afterwards. I hope it never comes to that, but I will survive.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

If you go to court and you dropped the guy, the lawyer will ask "Why didn't you try to shoot him in the leg or try to wound him instead of killing him?"

Whatever happens, a lawyer will cast it in the worst light possible for you.

It's best to do what you have to do to protect yourself or another from serious harm. Remember, if you go to court, you win, because you survived.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

Absolutely correct!!!!

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

I prob would of gotton nerves... Fumbled my gun... Scared the Ahole... Ducked back behind the isle... Fred prob would of got iced and the Ahole would of prob gotten away... After it was all over with... I would of second guessed everything that I did... Then I prob would of went to one of those gun trainning course to learn how to act when your in the S!@#;)

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

the first truly honest answer from all of us



LOL

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

whack em without hesitation.

RE: Shoot Don't Shoot scenario "The Quickie Mart"
 

When confronted with deadly force you have the right to defend yourself prettymuch in any state that allows CCW im sure. Also, many states have Good Samaritan laws that protect you from being prosecuted if you act to stop a violent felony in progress.

So yeah if he notices me, I command him to drop the weapon and if he so much as turns slightywith it still in his hand it's3 shots center mass.