300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
08-07-2007, 11:56 AM
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,813
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
Sure, a larger cartridge leaves a larger hole there is your proof. This is not to say you need a cannon, but I would go with someone who is a professional i.e. a guide over your "message board" advice.
"If" we are going to use "opinions" for "proof", why would YOUR opinion (you say you've never hunted a big bear) be more accurate or of higher value than MY opinion???? Ihunted brown bears for over 20 years, harvesting several myself, andwas in on hunts where many more were harvested by others?????
At least i have some "experience"and knowledge to back up my "message board" advice....
BTW, a .308" 200 NP out of a magnumwill bust a bear down just like a .338" 250NP will.... I never used the 30 cal. 220NP's, but i suspect they will work just as good or even better....
DM
08-07-2007, 12:06 PM
#52
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 1,184
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
ORIGINAL: DM
That's not proof, that's an opinion....
"If" we are going to use "opinions" for "proof", why would YOUR opinion (you say you've never hunted a big bear) be more accurate or of higher value than MY opinion???? Ihunted brown bears for over 20 years, harvesting several myself, andwas in on hunts where many more were harvested by others?????
At least i have some "experience"and knowledge to back up my "message board" advice....
BTW, a .308" 200 NP out of a magnumwill bust a bear down just like a .338" 250NP will.... I never used the 30 cal. 220NP's, but i suspect they will work just as good or even better....
DM
Sure, a larger cartridge leaves a larger hole there is your proof. This is not to say you need a cannon, but I would go with someone who is a professional i.e. a guide over your "message board" advice.
"If" we are going to use "opinions" for "proof", why would YOUR opinion (you say you've never hunted a big bear) be more accurate or of higher value than MY opinion???? Ihunted brown bears for over 20 years, harvesting several myself, andwas in on hunts where many more were harvested by others?????
At least i have some "experience"and knowledge to back up my "message board" advice....
BTW, a .308" 200 NP out of a magnumwill bust a bear down just like a .338" 250NP will.... I never used the 30 cal. 220NP's, but i suspect they will work just as good or even better....
DM
As for killing a bear with a bow or .22 I know it is possible. But, you see the risk factor goes up when using something less powerful. So, if you want to go hunt big bears with stuff that is not the industry standard then go for it. Just do it yourself, because the guide doesn't want to share your risk.
08-07-2007, 12:41 PM
#53
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,040
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
I'm not completely sure where we draw the line between "proof" and "opinion" in this context. Sounds to me like DM has as much experience hunting big bears as your "lawyer across the hall."
The problem I see is that the floor keeps going up. I have a book at home by Clyde Ormond, called "The Complete Book of Hunting" published sometime in the early 60's. I'll have to check it tonight, but I seem to recall that the "minimum recommended cartridge" for Brownies and Grizzlies at that time was the .30-06. I suspect that if you went back to 1900, the "minimum recommended cartridge" might have been the .30-30.
I've not done any bear hunting, so I'm purely a paper warrior here, but, I really can't believe that a properly constructed .308 caliber 200 grain bullet pushing 3800 ft lbs of energy is going to so significantly underperform a properly constructed .338 caliber 225 grain bullet pushing 3500 ft lbs of energy as to pose added risk to the Guide and the Hunter.
DM: Perhaps a listing of cartridges and bullets used on the hunts you've been on or witnessed would be of some use here.
The problem I see is that the floor keeps going up. I have a book at home by Clyde Ormond, called "The Complete Book of Hunting" published sometime in the early 60's. I'll have to check it tonight, but I seem to recall that the "minimum recommended cartridge" for Brownies and Grizzlies at that time was the .30-06. I suspect that if you went back to 1900, the "minimum recommended cartridge" might have been the .30-30.
I've not done any bear hunting, so I'm purely a paper warrior here, but, I really can't believe that a properly constructed .308 caliber 200 grain bullet pushing 3800 ft lbs of energy is going to so significantly underperform a properly constructed .338 caliber 225 grain bullet pushing 3500 ft lbs of energy as to pose added risk to the Guide and the Hunter.
DM: Perhaps a listing of cartridges and bullets used on the hunts you've been on or witnessed would be of some use here.
08-07-2007, 12:49 PM
#54
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 1,184
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
ORIGINAL: ipscshooter
I'm not completely sure where we draw the line between "proof" and "opinion" in this context. Sounds to me like DM has as much experience hunting big bears as your "lawyer across the hall."
The problem I see is that the floor keeps going up. I have a book at home by Clyde Ormond, called "The Complete Book of Hunting" published sometime in the early 60's. I'll have to check it tonight, but I seem to recall that the "minimum recommended cartridge" for Brownies and Grizzlies at that time was the .30-06. I suspect that if you went back to 1900, the "minimum recommended cartridge" might have been the .30-30.
I've not done any bear hunting, so I'm purely a paper warrior here, but, I really can't believe that a properly constructed .308 caliber 200 grain bullet pushing 3800 ft lbs of energy is going to so significantly underperform a properly constructed .338 caliber 225 grain bullet pushing 3500 ft lbs of energy as to pose added risk to the Guide and the Hunter.
DM: Perhaps a listing of cartridges and bullets used on the hunts you've been on or witnessed would be of some use here.
I'm not completely sure where we draw the line between "proof" and "opinion" in this context. Sounds to me like DM has as much experience hunting big bears as your "lawyer across the hall."
The problem I see is that the floor keeps going up. I have a book at home by Clyde Ormond, called "The Complete Book of Hunting" published sometime in the early 60's. I'll have to check it tonight, but I seem to recall that the "minimum recommended cartridge" for Brownies and Grizzlies at that time was the .30-06. I suspect that if you went back to 1900, the "minimum recommended cartridge" might have been the .30-30.
I've not done any bear hunting, so I'm purely a paper warrior here, but, I really can't believe that a properly constructed .308 caliber 200 grain bullet pushing 3800 ft lbs of energy is going to so significantly underperform a properly constructed .338 caliber 225 grain bullet pushing 3500 ft lbs of energy as to pose added risk to the Guide and the Hunter.
DM: Perhaps a listing of cartridges and bullets used on the hunts you've been on or witnessed would be of some use here.
08-07-2007, 12:50 PM
#55
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Boonies, Alaska
Posts: 83
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
i know that would work on a bear, put it down for a nice long eternal hibernation, but it is also a good idea to listen to your guide, if you have the money, i say buy the bigger gun, but if you dont, explain it to your guide, and he will understand, and maybe have a loaner for you.
the loaner rifle the guide i was a packer for was a 300 wsm, so i dont understand why a 300 rum isnt enough, but its up to the guy tracking the bear when a bad shot is made to decide what caliber he feels safest following up in the case of an accident
the loaner rifle the guide i was a packer for was a 300 wsm, so i dont understand why a 300 rum isnt enough, but its up to the guy tracking the bear when a bad shot is made to decide what caliber he feels safest following up in the case of an accident
08-07-2007, 12:59 PM
#56
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,040
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
ORIGINAL: robbcayman
Hey, if you feel comfortable hunting big bears with smaller rounds then go for it. I feel a lot of times people get on these boards just to fight, and I'm not here for that. I would feel more comfortable going with what the guide suggested and I have stated my reasons why. To the original poster, I hope you shoot a good sized bear and do so safely.
Hey, if you feel comfortable hunting big bears with smaller rounds then go for it. I feel a lot of times people get on these boards just to fight, and I'm not here for that. I would feel more comfortable going with what the guide suggested and I have stated my reasons why. To the original poster, I hope you shoot a good sized bear and do so safely.
I'd be really interested in hearing the opinions of members who have actually harvested big bears, what caliber/cartridge and bullet they used, and how the bullet performed (i.e. penetration, whether it hit/broke bone, etc.).
08-07-2007, 01:18 PM
#57
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
I will take DM's word over most here because he has been there and done it. I have hunted the big bears as well and have done so with the 30-06, 45-70 and 35 Whelen as well as the 44 Magnum. Velocity is not always the answer here as lighter bullets at high velocities can often blow up on big bones. I would pick the 30-06 with a 200 grain and up bullet over any of the 300 Magnums using lighter bullets. However the 30-06 or any of the other bigger 30 calibers including the 30-40 Krag with 200 GR or heavier bullets perform well on the big bears. You don't need a cannon but you need a well constructed heavy bullet that will Penetrate and break bones. In its day the 30-40 Krag with 180-220 grain bullets was a top choice for big bears, Bears are no tougher now that they were then Nor are the bear hunters.
I believe that amoung other calibers, DM used the 338-06, 30-06 and 7MM ReM Mag as well as the 8x57.
I believe that amoung other calibers, DM used the 338-06, 30-06 and 7MM ReM Mag as well as the 8x57.
08-07-2007, 02:05 PM
#59
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 1,184
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
ORIGINAL: ipscshooter
I'm not completely sure where we draw the line between "proof" and "opinion" in this context. Sounds to me like DM has as much experience hunting big bears as your "lawyer across the hall."
The problem I see is that the floor keeps going up. I have a book at home by Clyde Ormond, called "The Complete Book of Hunting" published sometime in the early 60's. I'll have to check it tonight, but I seem to recall that the "minimum recommended cartridge" for Brownies and Grizzlies at that time was the .30-06. I suspect that if you went back to 1900, the "minimum recommended cartridge" might have been the .30-30.
I've not done any bear hunting, so I'm purely a paper warrior here, but, I really can't believe that a properly constructed .308 caliber 200 grain bullet pushing 3800 ft lbs of energy is going to so significantly underperform a properly constructed .338 caliber 225 grain bullet pushing 3500 ft lbs of energy as to pose added risk to the Guide and the Hunter.
DM: Perhaps a listing of cartridges and bullets used on the hunts you've been on or witnessed would be of some use here.
I'm not completely sure where we draw the line between "proof" and "opinion" in this context. Sounds to me like DM has as much experience hunting big bears as your "lawyer across the hall."
The problem I see is that the floor keeps going up. I have a book at home by Clyde Ormond, called "The Complete Book of Hunting" published sometime in the early 60's. I'll have to check it tonight, but I seem to recall that the "minimum recommended cartridge" for Brownies and Grizzlies at that time was the .30-06. I suspect that if you went back to 1900, the "minimum recommended cartridge" might have been the .30-30.
I've not done any bear hunting, so I'm purely a paper warrior here, but, I really can't believe that a properly constructed .308 caliber 200 grain bullet pushing 3800 ft lbs of energy is going to so significantly underperform a properly constructed .338 caliber 225 grain bullet pushing 3500 ft lbs of energy as to pose added risk to the Guide and the Hunter.
DM: Perhaps a listing of cartridges and bullets used on the hunts you've been on or witnessed would be of some use here.
It did mention in the article that several hunters had killed bears with 7mm mags, which I knew was possible. However, it did note that several bears charged back and had to be shot 3-4 times depending upon shot placement and the bear. I could be wrong, but I feel if I have a well placed shot with a rifle that delivers 4100 ft lbs then I have a little better chance than with something with less energy. Either way, it is a personal choice and I am just saying what I would go with.
08-07-2007, 02:20 PM
#60
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,040
RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
ORIGINAL: robbcayman
All this talk got me interested in bear rifles etc.. So I did some research and found that a 375 H&H loaded with 300 grain round nose propelled at 2500 FPS produces 4100 ft lbs of energy, WOW!!!! I do agree that learning to shoot a bigger caliber would take lots of practice so you wouldn't jerk while pulling the round off.
It did mention in the article that several hunters had killed bears with 7mm mags, which I knew was possible. However, it did note that several bears charged back and had to be shot 3-4 times depending upon shot placement and the bear. I could be wrong, but I feel if I have a well placed shot with a rifle that delivers 4100 ft lbs then I have a little better chance than with something with less energy. Either way, it is a personal choice and I am just saying what I would go with.
All this talk got me interested in bear rifles etc.. So I did some research and found that a 375 H&H loaded with 300 grain round nose propelled at 2500 FPS produces 4100 ft lbs of energy, WOW!!!! I do agree that learning to shoot a bigger caliber would take lots of practice so you wouldn't jerk while pulling the round off.
It did mention in the article that several hunters had killed bears with 7mm mags, which I knew was possible. However, it did note that several bears charged back and had to be shot 3-4 times depending upon shot placement and the bear. I could be wrong, but I feel if I have a well placed shot with a rifle that delivers 4100 ft lbs then I have a little better chance than with something with less energy. Either way, it is a personal choice and I am just saying what I would go with.