RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I have a suggestion, if you are worried about getting eaten by a large bear stay out of it's back yard and don't shoot at it. I don't care what kind of gun you have it does not garauntee a one shot stop. Shooting large dangerous game is... well, dangerous.

I never get this argument when there are people that kill large dangerous game with slug guns, muzzle loaders and bows. I mean I guess if you want to shoot it from 500 yards away, hit it in the foot and have it drop dead than an ultra high powered rifle might be in the cards. But don't sit there and tell us that you HAVE to have that big of a rifle to kill game like that. There have been plenty of animals like that taken cleanly with a 30-06 and lesser cartridges.

My opinion anyway, but then again I don't hunt bear, for the reason stated above. I don't feel like getting eaten by one. Same reason I don't swim in the ocean. I have a pact with sharks, they stay out of my back yard and I'll stay out of theirs;).

Paul

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I think you're missing the point that the .300 RUM is not a "lower powered rifle."

By the way... watched the youtube video. That must have been pretty exciting...

But, they don't say what cartridge either of those guys was using. For all we know... coulda been a .243. ;)

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Just use great bullets...X-bullets, partitions etc..do not attempt this with off the shelf factory loaded junk bullets..the jackets are to thin...REMEMBER your on the menu when hunting these beasts.....shoot straight and practice on cardboard cutouts..should have been doing this all summer, but better late than never..GOOD LUCK and know where the kill area is from all angles....send the guide first into the alders to retrieve and make sure your faster than the camera man... more than enough energy. lots have been killed by 30/30's a few riflemen have been eaten also....

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I had a 14 day hunt in the Yukon in 1994 and it turned out my"guide" had never set foot in the Yukon until shortly before I showed up.Hired him sight unseen to cover the number of hunters.He was scared of his ass of bears and was fired for cowardice in a bear situation 2 weeks later.I shot a 15.5 year old sow and he was none too crazy about stalking it so I left him 1/2 way down the mountain as I didn't come that far to watch wildlife at a safe distance.He had a German hunter with him and a big boar walked out at less than 25 yards and the guide just about soiled himself and forbade the hunter to shoot.He's lucky he wasn't butstroked...........When he got back to camp and the German talked to the owner he was fired on the spot............Harold

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Acutally that was a 22 cartridge j/k ;) Agree to disagree, but I honestly have the guys best interest at heart. No matter what hunt safe and have fun.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

No problem, i'd just like to see you back up your "best interest" with some facts... (read proof)

DM

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I think a 300 weatherby mag w/np will do the job. There is a 220 grain round nose for heavy bone stuff. I would think a 300 rum would be more than enough, shot placement is the key.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Don't laugh... it's possible. There's a picture of a lady at the site below, who killed a huge grizzly in self defense using a .22 (her story is about 1/8th down the page).

http://www.brassmonkeyproductions.com/grizzly/Part3.html

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Sure, a larger cartridge leaves a larger hole there is your proof. This is not to say you need a cannon, but I would go with someone who is a professional i.e. a guide over your "message board" advice.:eek:

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I'm not sure that a 3/100ths" larger hole is significant. The concern is, and I think should be, penetration, as the "size of hole" difference between a .308 caliber bullet and a .338 caliber bullet is pretty miniscule. Thus, the question becomes whether a 200 gr. "premium-type" bullet out of the .300 RUM hitting with 3800 ft. lbs. of energy will penetrate as well as a 220 gr. or 250 gr. "premium-type" bullet out of a .338 WMhitting with 3500 ft. lbs. of energy. What is their relative propensity to break through bone?

Keep in mind that in that youtube video, those guys were, originally, BOWHUNTING for grizzlies, and only decided to use the rifles based on weather. I can't believe that there might be guides out there who would say, "I'll take you bowhunting for bears, but, if you want to use a rifle, leave your .300 RUM at home because I won't hunt with you unless you're using at least a .338 WM."

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

That's not proof, that's an opinion....

"If" we are going to use "opinions" for "proof", why would YOUR opinion (you say you've never hunted a big bear) be more accurate or of higher value than MY opinion???? Ihunted brown bears for over 20 years, harvesting several myself, andwas in on hunts where many more were harvested by others?????

At least i have some "experience"and knowledge to back up my "message board" advice....

BTW, a .308" 200 NP out of a magnumwill bust a bear down just like a .338" 250NP will.... I never used the 30 cal. 220NP's, but i suspect they will work just as good or even better....

DM

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

No that is your opinion!! And you are correct I have never hunted Brown Bear, but the bad thing for you is the lawyer across the hall spent 5 years as a guide in Alaska. He told me he ran into several know it all clients like yourself and would tell them to do it on their own, and that made me chuckle.:D

As for killing a bear with a bow or .22 I know it is possible. But, you see the risk factor goes up when using something less powerful. So, if you want to go hunt big bears with stuff that is not the industry standard then go for it. Just do it yourself, because the guide doesn't want to share your risk.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I'm not completely sure where we draw the line between "proof" and "opinion" in this context. Sounds to me like DM has as much experience hunting big bears as your "lawyer across the hall."

The problem I see is that the floor keeps going up. I have a book at home by Clyde Ormond, called "The Complete Book of Hunting" published sometime in the early 60's. I'll have to check it tonight, but I seem to recall that the "minimum recommended cartridge" for Brownies and Grizzlies at that time was the .30-06. I suspect that if you went back to 1900, the "minimum recommended cartridge" might have been the .30-30.

I've not done any bear hunting, so I'm purely a paper warrior here, but, I really can't believe that a properly constructed .308 caliber 200 grain bullet pushing 3800 ft lbs of energy is going to so significantly underperform a properly constructed .338 caliber 225 grain bullet pushing 3500 ft lbs of energy as to pose added risk to the Guide and the Hunter.


DM: Perhaps a listing of cartridges and bullets used on the hunts you've been on or witnessed would be of some use here.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Hey, if you feel comfortable hunting big bears with smaller rounds then go for it. I feel a lot of times people get on these boards just to fight, and I'm not here for that. I would feel more comfortable going with what the guide suggested and I have stated my reasons why. To the original poster, I hope you shoot a good sized bear and do so safely. :)

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

i know that would work on a bear, put it down for a nice long eternal hibernation, but it is also a good idea to listen to your guide, if you have the money, i say buy the bigger gun, but if you dont, explain it to your guide, and he will understand, and maybe have a loaner for you.

the loaner rifle the guide i was a packer for was a 300 wsm, so i dont understand why a 300 rum isnt enough, but its up to the guy tracking the bear when a bad shot is made to decide what caliber he feels safest following up in the case of an accident

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I'm not sure I'd be "comfortable" hunting big bears with anything. I'm not here to fight, just to exchange ideas and opinions and hopefully learn some stuff along the way.

I'd be really interested in hearing the opinions of members who have actually harvested big bears, what caliber/cartridge and bullet they used, and how the bullet performed (i.e. penetration, whether it hit/broke bone, etc.).

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I will take DM's word over most here because he has been there and done it. I have hunted the big bears as well and have done so with the 30-06, 45-70 and 35 Whelen as well as the 44 Magnum. Velocity is not always the answer here as lighter bullets at high velocities can often blow up on big bones. I would pick the 30-06 with a 200 grain and up bullet over any of the 300 Magnums using lighter bullets. However the 30-06 or any of the other bigger 30 calibers including the 30-40 Krag with 200 GR or heavier bullets perform well on the big bears. You don't need a cannon but you need a well constructed heavy bullet that will Penetrate and break bones. In its day the 30-40 Krag with 180-220 grain bullets was a top choice for big bears, Bears are no tougher now that they were then Nor are the bear hunters.;)

I believe that amoung other calibers, DM used the 338-06, 30-06 and 7MM ReM Mag as well as the 8x57.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

LOL Id say the bear hunters are nowhere near as tough as then James..lol. Theres a few people on here Id never question and DM is one of them.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

All this talk got me interested in bear rifles etc.. So I did some research and found that a 375 H&H loaded with 300 grain round nose propelled at 2500 FPS produces 4100 ft lbs of energy, WOW!!!! I do agree that learning to shoot a bigger caliber would take lots of practice so you wouldn't jerk while pulling the round off.

It did mention in the article that several hunters had killed bears with 7mm mags, which I knew was possible. However, it did note that several bears charged back and had to be shot 3-4 times depending upon shot placement and the bear. I could be wrong, but I feel if I have a well placed shot with a rifle that delivers 4100 ft lbs then I have a little better chance than with something with less energy. Either way, it is a personal choice and I am just saying what I would go with. ;)

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

You realize, of course, that the .300 RUM with a 180 gr. bullet produces 4221 ft lbs of muzzle energy and with a 200 gr. bullet produces 4083 ft lbs., right? You've been arguing that the .300 RUM was a lower powered rifle, but, it's got as much or more muzzle energy than that 375 H&H you're saying "WOW!!!!" about...

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I do stand corrected that I didn't realize it had that much force. However, I did notice that the guides suggestion of the 338 does produce 5197 ft lbs. Can someone explain the difference in say an additional 1000 ft lbs of force, in terms of stopping power? I am no ballistics genius, nor do I claim to be that is why I would go with what the guide says.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

If this individual wants to use his pea shooter magnum, let him have at it, I doubt that Mr. Grizzly bear is gonna be too impressed with it. Energy is one of those figures that needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as it means absoutely zilch, when comparing a smaller caliber, to a larger caliber. I would take a .338 Win Mag loaded with 250 grain NP's anyday, over that ultra super duper magnum shooting a .308 caliber 200 grain bullet. Lets face it folks, paper ballistics are just that, uselsss figures that mean very little in the field. Lets put this in perspective, the .338 Lupua firing a 250 grain bullet generates 5100 ft lbs of muzzle energy, while the .416 Remington Magnum firing a 400 grain bullets generates the same 5100 ft lbs, which one would you rather have on your side when a cape buffalo is charging you?

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

If you want a big hole use a 12 ga slug gun. Even with sabots you would be shooting a .50 cal bullet. With a standard rifled slug like brenneke dangerous game slug you would leave a whole the size of a quarter. And some of the newer slug loads are the same as a standard 45-70 load. I mean if you want big and heavy it's hard to beat 70+ caliber and 600 plus grains. Or even 435 grns for a standard sabot slug.

However that is no comparison to a properly constructed bullet at a high velocity. High velocity projectiles do a LOT of damage to tissue, even if the bullet isn't that big. Shoot a varmint with a slug gun, then shoot one with a 22-250. The smaller faster bullet will blow it apart. With the proper bullet any high powered rifle should be very lethal on a bear if you make a good shot. Make a bad shot and you could be using a .50 cal BMG and it might not make a difference.

Paul

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I think your guide has been sniffing glue. The 30 cal. is more than adequate in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot. I'm not much of a fan of the Ultramag.'s since I'm an advocate for more lead (bigger bullets) over more powder but it'll do it.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

If one really needs something more than a 30-06 in the .30 caliber then he is advised to step up in caliber.....the 300 magnums extend range a bit but that's the end of their usefulness.

Such cartridges as the 338 Win Mag, .338-06, .35 Whelen, 358Norma Magnum, 9.3X62 Mauser, .375 Ruger, and the .375 H&H are all vastly superior to the .300 Ultra Mag.....a rookie's cartridge!

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Here's a news flash for you.... I did ALL of my bear hunting on my own, i've never used a guide for bear hunting in my life... I've hunted big bears all over the south central coast of Alaska, onmany of theislands like Kodiakand alsoon the Alaska Peninsula... and the interior.

I started hunting big bears in Alaska inthe early 70's and continued untill the mid 90's... I learned a thing or two along the way, and used many guns/cals/bullets for all of my hunting needs...

I designed and mfg'd bonded core bullets, and sold them by mail order and through the gunshop i started and ran for many of those years... I do know what works, and what doesn't... I also had an ammo mfg license, and sold reloads and new ammo i loaded with my bonded bullets.

BUT, this isn't about me, it's about whether a 300 mag. is enough for brown bears, and i'm with James B and the others who say, "use good bullets" and you don't need a cannon... I've been saying it here for a long long time now because it's what has worked for me and many othersfor many years now...

KEY words..... choose the proper bullet!!

DM

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

AND Proper bullet placement.

The biggestrifle around won't kill the bear if you hit him in the foot. ;)

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I thought the guide recommended a minimum of .338 Win. Mag. Winchester's and Remington's loads for the .338 WM all produce about 3910-3950 ft lbs of muzzle energy. Are you maybe looking at the .338 Lapua Magnum? That's a completely different weapon.

Are you serious? I would bet that in the history of grizzly hunting, there have been far more grizzlies killed by weapon .308 caliber or less rifles than have been killed by .338+ magnums. I guess none of those grizzlies were very impressed...

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Yes, and many elephant have fallen to the .303 British, does that make it an adequate choice for hunting them? When hunting game that can hunt back, bigger and heavier is a lot better then smaller and lighter.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Ive got to jump back in this again. I haven't yet had the chance to hunt bears, but soon enough, a trip to Kodiak AK is in the works.

I am certainly not an expert in hunting bears, though I do have a very good background in understanding ballistics. Much of the information below, i learned at a Sniper conference in florida from a guest speaker from one of the ammo companies, there to discuss Terminal Balistics. That is, everything that happens to a bullet after it hits your target. Look up some things on terminal ballistics, and it should help those who don't understand some of the advantages of the larger cartidges. keep in mind, I am not saying that it makes them better, because there are some disadvantages too. But I think those have been discussed pretty well in the last 7-8 pages here.

I have no doubt that there have been many more bears killed with the .308 caliber rifles than the .338's. I think that may have more to do with the fact that the .308 caliber is and has been a much more popular vaersitile cartridge for all these years. The .338 has been around since the 50's sure, but it has a more specific purpose that the average joe hunter does not need. The average joe is content to shoot deer and other common game, and make the occasional trip out west, or to canada, or Alaska, or wherever.There are more people I think that can't afford to buy all the cool guy calibers for every game than there are the guys who can buy that ideal rifle for that "big Hunt", or that get to make that hunt every year. That might be why there have been more killed with the .308 caliber. I wont say that proves that anything as far as that caliberbeing more superior. And the fact that less have been shot with .338 does not say that is less superior. There are just more of one out there than the other.

To answer somebody's question from earlier. A larger bullet with a higher ft-lbs will have a more devistating effect. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WILL PENETRATE ANY FARTHER. See, when a bullet hits flesh, you get what is called a wound cavity. It is alot like a cavern in the side of a mountain, that isfor lack of better term, kind of football shaped.This is created temporarily when a bullet stikes flesh. The energy creates a "splash" of sorts on the flesh and internal organs, opening up a cavity. The ammount of energy, and bullet type will create larger or smaller cavities. Because Flesh is naturally elastic, it will come back to almost it's original shape and size, only the damage has been done. The shock that this can cause on the organs can cause them to fail, orjust might be enough to drop that bear, or whatever in the event that you just slightly missed that vital spot, or didn't hit it just right. Think of it this way, somebody can hit you hard enough on the chest, right near your heart and make it stop.nothing haspenetrated your heart, butYOU are still DEAD.Same principal with the wound cavity. You mght miss the heart, but the pressure created by the wound cavity can cause it to stop. This of course is in addition to the fact that a bullet has just ripped a hole through flesh, maybe an artery, and some organs too. Might be the difference between the charge, and the animal dropping.

now what does all this mean in the larger vs smaller caliber for hunting. It does not mean that you can't kill a bear with any of the smaller cartridges, because we all know you can. What this does show is: although the bigger hole does not really mean a guarunteed kill, the extra energy, might make the difference if you don't hit in just the right spot.


TO jdbowhunter:

if you think that your .300 RUm is enough, or that you are more comfortable with it take that, and be done with it. It s obvious that it is enough to kill bears with. There are guys here that have used more, and guys that have used less, so we now it is enough. I don't know enough about your rifle to really know. The guid may have a reason for asking you to bring something larger. I don't really know. Some guys would say, you really should, others say you don't have to, but they would, and others say they wouldn't at all. Whatever you decide, good luck on the hunt, I am no doubt jealous. I have to wait at least one more year before I go. Have fun and be safe.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I just finished a book called "Alaska Bear Tales" by Larry Kaniut. Seems a lot of the brown / grizzley / polar bears being killed in the '20's, '30's and '40's were shot with 30-40 Krags. I figured this was because there were a lot of surplus miitary rifles and ammo around at the time. But I've got to wonder if there were just as many 338's or 375's around, how many of the sourdoughs would have picked a 30-40 for a primary gun in bear country?

Speaking of the 30-40 Krag, I've got some questions about them but I'll post in a separate thread.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

What does it show about a slightly (3/100ths of an inch)smaller hole, with extra energy? Your statement above assumes that the .338 WM has more energy, but it's actually a couple hundred foot-pounds less than the .300 RUM.

I can understand Beartooth's sentiment about "heavier is better" when discussing the difference between using a 180 gr. solid out of a .303 British on elephants versus using a 500 gr. out of a .460 Weatherby. But when discussing the .300 RUM versus the .338 WM, we're only talking a 10-50 grain difference in bullet weight, and I don't believe that, with a properly constructed bullet, that amount of bullet weight would be significant, especially where the slightly lighter bullet is travelingquite a bit faster and with somewhat greater energy than the slightly heavier bullet.

So, KD, are you going to use that Lapua when you go? I doubt there'll be much debate about whether THAT is enough gun... :D

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Its the age old lighter/faster vs. heavier/slower debate. I myself opt for the heavier/slower side myself. That being said I would say that the 300 ultra would certainly do the job. Everybody is getting their panties bunched on this thing, assuming that the guide was ordering the customer to buy a new rifle. I seriously doubt thats how it was said. I would say that he simply stated his preference. As said before, people go brown bear hunting every year with a bow.


I would say that you take a rifle that you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable taking the 338 great your guide will be happy. If not, then take the ultra as I'm quite certain that it will do the job. Your guide will cope I'm quite certain.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

To IPSCSHOOTER.
I thought about what you said right after I wrote that post, and I agree with you. Bigger bullet does not always mean more energy. I did assume that the .338 would have more energy when I wrote it. I do notdoubtthe stats that you are giving me. However, you also have to take velocity into consideration.If you increase the velocity of an object, and it weighs more, it will have more enrgy to when it strikes something. It is my thought and opinon, that if you can get a higher ammount of energy at a known distance that you might be better off using that cartridge, even if it is a little smaller. As far as the bullet weight between the 2 not making that much difference. Maybe not at the same velocity, but make one go faster, and it really can add more energy. Also need to figure at what distance are you figuring on shooting from. one smaller cartridge might have more evelocity and thus more energy say at 300 yds, but the other might catch it at 400-500.


To answer your question, as of right now, when I do get to go, the Rifle I will take will without a doubt be my .338 Lapua. It is a little heavy (weight wise ) to lug around, but, I have been told by many, that I won't have to worry about being underguned with it. I know, that isn't all there is to it, shot placement and all that. All I need is to know where I have to hit, within say 600 yds (I hope I don't have to shoot that far) and I am confident enough in the gun, and my comfort shooting it, ( I never go to the range and not shoot it, at least 40-60 rounds) to get that much done.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

Assuming the ballistics tables are reasonably accurate, the 200 gr. .300 RUM travels at greater velocity and has roughly 300 or so ft lbs more energy than either the 225 or 250 gr..338 WM from muzzle to 500 yards. I really believe that it'll get the job done with the right bullet.


Haha... Yeah, as much as that thing weighs, you better rent yourself a string of pack mules, so when one of them passes out from exhaustion, you'll have a few spares...


ShatoDavis: I don't think anybody has their "undies in a bunch". Seems to me folks, for the most part,are just trying to have a reasonable discussion of the issue.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

ISPC,

I wasn't necessarilly refering to you at all. To be honest I didn't read all of the posts. I did see a few that seemed to be upset at the quide. Ieven remember someonecalling the guide "off his rocker" and one said"out in left field" etc. I was simply stating that we shouldn't jump to conclusions. If I was a brown bear quide and a potential client asked me what"my minimum" recommendation was, I would without hesitation say: "338 win". If that client further asked me if he/she should bringa 300 ultra or a 338 win or a 375 single shot as all three where in the gun cabinet. I would reply 338 win. thats not to say that either of the other two wouldn't do thejob it would just be my suggestion.

I apologize to anyone I offended with the "panties in a bunch" comment. On second thought no I don't. anyone offend by such a meaningless comment should lighten up.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

IPSC,
come on man, it weighs just over 14 lbs with all the goodies. A bit heavy, but doable. I carry more than that around right now in Iraq.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I was joking... Hey, you in the service, or civilian job? I've got a brother in law who just got back from a civilian posting in Iraq. He spent a couple years running logistics for Halliburton's fuel trucks, trying to keepthe Hummers and Tanks running. Another brother in law (former police officer) is there trying to trainIraqi police forces.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I am over here active Army. OUt here in the Anbar Provence, about 60 miles west of Ramadi.

I know you are just kidding around. But, hey, a little bit of pokin at each other seems to keep this discussion going. I know quite a bit about shooting and ballistics, but not everything. Everyday, I open this up and i might pick up a thing or two i didn't know, or just another way to look at shooting and hunting. Hopefully, I am able to put a little something out there for others to learn as well. For me, I learn about many other calibers,and their capabilities. hopefully for others, some of my understanding of balistics, or long range shooting can be of help. Whoknows.

RE: 300 Ultra Mag for Brown Bear
 

I think my brother in law who worked for Halliburton was based out of Mosul. Not sure though... My other brother in law, the police trainer, is working in Baghdad.

Thanks for your service. Keep your head down... I'm sure we're all looking forward to a story or two about how that Lapua Magnum works ona Brownie...