What shotgun? 3 1/2, or 3", what kind?
 

Hey, guys.


I was thinkingto get a turkey hunting shotgun,an auto-loader,either a Stoeger M2000 or a Charles Daly, maybe even a Mossberg 935 if I find a good deal, but I was also thinking of getting a DMPS AR-15 in .223, 'cause I'm kinda' wondering if thatdarn gun ban bill isgoing to pass, so I was thinking of getting that.


I would easily say that I should get the shotgun first,honestly, sincemy uncle does have another shotgun, but it's just a Mossberg 500,only 3" mag, kicks too much, too light, it's an uplandgun, and it's not camo.
He and I usually have to share his Charles Daly, and if two turkeys show up, we're not in good business, especially if both of them is any farther than 30 yards, the Mossberg 500 just doesn't go out that far dependably.

I was thinking of saving money and just gettinga pump, butI don't feel like Iwant to have to pump, it's slower, and although I'm not thinking about a second shot when I'm turkey hunting, I have seen plenty of video showing hunters miss their birds because they flinched from the fact that a shotgun's recoil isvery hard, I sawon a Realtree video, one guy was hunting in Missouri,and he shot at a turkey, andmissed, it startedflying away, and he shot it again,and got it, I looked at that video, itturned out that if he wasn't using an auto-loader, he wouldn't have gotten a second chance.

Also,whatever shotgun I get, I will be putting a turkey choke, which is like XX Full, and if aturkeysneaks up on me at less than 20 yards, I will be ina pickle, 'cause the pattern is so tight at that distance, even the slightest flinch would put my shot off, and if I miss, the turkey is going to start running farther away, where my pattern gets better, so I can shoot him again, and he won't stand much chance, but, of course, turkeys can move sorta' fast, and if I have my shotgun's forearm restin on a branch or something, I wouldn't be able to pump it.

What do you guys think?
The shotgun has to be under $600, if you can suggest something just above that price, I would appreciate that as well.

I already have made up my mind I do not wanta Mossberg 500.

So, what would be an auto-loader for under $600?

Also, I would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions on a pump-action shotgun.

Thanks,

Josiah

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Get the auto over the pump.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

The auto will have less recoil and the Stoeger is a nice one, though if you practice with a pump you will have no problem getting a second shot. I use a pump shooting sporting clays and and had a problem getting the second shot off.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Get an auto and get the Stoeger 2000.

Tom

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

I forgot how much a Stoeger M2000 cost.

The reason I am very finicky about the Stoeger M2000, is that it's cheap, and I have the instinctual gut feeling that "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

Can anyone ease my doubt?:D

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

If ya go with a pump,go with a browning bps. If ya go with a auto-I like benellis and got a new 1 for $500 but I understand that I got a hevkova deal. Good ol remington 11-87 is a pretty decent semi gas gun.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

I'd be more scared of a Charles Daly semi auto, as they feel like a toy. I have a few buddies that have bought the Stoeger 2000s and they are very satisfied with them. I'm tossing around the idea of getting one for myself for a "beater" gun so I don't have to scratch up my Benelli's everyday from September till January 31st.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

I prefer the pump but that is just preference. As for the speed. When I'm goose hunting I can pump them out as fast as any auto loader. I guess after over 30 years using pumps it what you are used to. For upland game I prefermy Berretaover/under.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

If I get an 11-87, it'd have to be used, since the ones with 3 1/2 mag capacity are pretty darn expensive, but the wierd thing is, they're not compatible for 3" mags. If I could find a 3 1/2 magnum chambered 11-87 used, that would be sweet, if I ever needed a shotgun for other birds that didn't need 3 1/2 mag, I could just get another shotgun.

Is there a link to where I can get specifications to the Stoeger M2000?

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Rammer,

You just may find out that you like the Stoeger better. Kind of like and old truck that you can use and park anywhere. You know what I mean?


YG,

It is a great gun that they've made even better with the addition of the recoil reducer in the stock. BTW - Pay the extra $50 and get the recoil reducer. It is a great shotgun nothing more to say. Go to www.stoeger.com to see it.

Tom

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Uh, stat, that link was some German company that makes screws.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Here's the right link

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/index.tpl

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Sorry about that. At least now you know where to pick up some screws!

Tom

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

lol, nice one.

The Stoeger M2000 looks cool, but was kinda' hoping to be able to shoot 3 1/2 mags.

If I want to shoot 3 1/2, I might have to go witha pump for the sake of money, since it looks like all the 3 1/2 magnum auto-loaders are over $1,000, unless I get a stinkin' good deal on an 11-87 or as stalkingbear had, a Bennellii Super Black Eagle, which shoots 3 1/2.

I guess keeping an eye to the classifeds, and the local gun store, where I got a stinkin' good deal on a Remington673, will be my best bet to find something.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

I'd reccomend just staying away from a 3 1/2" as it is not necessary one bit.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Agree with Rammer...

2nd thought...Get a 3 1/2 inch in a pump...Try a Mossburg 835...Set up a video and shoot a 3 1/2 turkey load with the turkey choke installed....Then show us the video...It's the off season and we all need a good laugh....

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

In a pump, it's hard to beat either a Remington 870 or the Browning BPS...

In an auto, I have used or have buddies that have Remington 1100s, 11-87s Brownings and Benellis...Never have used a Stoeger...All of these are reliable if you know how they function and how to keep a gun cleaned....In addition they will kick less than the pump guns, but, bought new they are more expensive.....

If you want a good, reliable used gun, look for a Browning B-80...I have one and it is a great gun, I use it for doves, deer, turkeys and it preforms flawlessly...

If it were me, and I was younger and not so used to autos, I believe I would buy a Browning BPS...This gun will serve you well for the rest of your life...Not saying that the 870 isn't a good gun as they have been around since the mid-50s if I remember correctly...The fit and finish on the Browning just seems to be a little better to me....

The other issue in a turkey gun is weight, a pump is lighter than an auto and with turkey hunting you sometimes walk alot and hold the gun up waiting for the bird to work his way in...Not a problem in a dove field....

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

I am very used to autos, it's almost everything I shoot as a shotgun.

Weight reduces recoil, and if I have a sling, it shouldn't be a problem.

I do not agree that 3 1/2 inch magnum is unnecessary, because I have seen it work on turkeys, and it outperforms 3".

I do not agree that a pump is better.

Another thing is that when I get a shotgun, I want to shoot Hevi-Shot, I like it, since I've tried a friend's Mossberg 935 that was 3 1/2 magnum, using Hevi-Shot, and I liked the pattern, and all the lead, and I saw his turkey after he shot one. I do not believe Hevi-Shot is made in 3".

I killed my first turkey at 33 yards, and due to the fact that we hunt on the edge of a field, I want to practice shooting out to 50 yards, my uncle killed his late season gobbler at 50 yards, he said that while he was at the range, he felt as if the Lord was telling him to practise shooting at 50 yards. He was usinghis Charles Daly, 3 1/2 magnum. I would like that kind of performance. That's why I like his shotgun. I like the Mossberg 935 better, though, of course, it was hevi-shot, and it had a Patternmaster choke on it, very good choke for about $75 or more. I'm not sure if Patternmasters are made for 3"

I am determined to get an auto-loading3 1/2 magnum turkey shotgun, I don't need versatility, just a turkey shotgun, and I don't want something that is a"startergun", in fact, I don't believein such a thing, I want a shotgun, that I can use for a very long time, and something reliable, that does the job well, if I treat it well. I don't want anything less.
However, I might consider a Benelli Nova Pump, that seems to be a good turkey gun.

So, I am now fully certain that I want an auto-loader with 3 1/2 capacity.
I want suggestions of what I could get of that, for under $600, either priced new or used, since I don't have to worry about getting a shotgun " with a shot out barrel", like I would with a rifle, since shotguns are smoothbore.

I was thinking of the following things: Charles Daly, Mossberg 935, used Remington 11-87 (that way it's cheaper when it's used, unless I get a freakish deal), and others.

The B-80 is only 2 3/4, I cannot use that for turkey, I need to kill a turkey at least up to 40 yards. Unless I get some E-80 barrel that's 3", but that barrel would be hard to find since production stopped in 1988, and frankly, I don't feel that spending all that money and time just to get an E-80 barrel would be worth it.

I don't mean any offense, andI appreciate you trying to help me.

Thanks, and when you suggest something, I would appreciate a price estimation as well.

Josiah

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

You guys have to see this awesome German ingenuity, and excellent translation!:D








[blockquote]Handscrewdriver
HST/HSF Series [align=left]
Small screwdriver
with telescopic function
and automatic feeding
for manual workstations







[/align][/blockquote]
[/align]





LOL!!!!!! "Telescopic funtion", why does my screw driver need a telescopic function? LOL!!!!!

Thanks for the site, I not only know where to get my screws, but some good laughs, lol.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Heck...Just get a 10 gauge if you want a real gun!!!:D

The B-80 I have is a 3 inch mag and will also shoot 2 3/4 shells...

Your post stated "pump or auto"...I simply gave my opinion based on over 40 years of hunting...

I also have a few fields I turkey hunt in...Saw one killed at 58 yards this year, the guys should not have taken the shot, but he did and killed the turkey...Using a 3 inch gun....

How a gun patterns is more how it is set up and the work the owner has done to maximize the guns potential...The 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge was developed for pass shooting waterfowl with steel shot, it is not inherently "better" than a 3 inch gun for turkeys, in fact the shot coulumn is longer which can deform more shot, not a real problem with harder steel shot...Just because you have more shot in the shell does not mean you have more shot on the target...In addition, how many shot does it take to cleanly kill a turkey, one in the right place, but 6-8 are plenty...I killed 20 or so with a 2 3/4 double barrel and high brass 6s back in the 70's and 80's, before all this camo this, camo that, speciality gun, shell, marketing started taking place.....

In fact, a good 3 inch double with screw in chokes would still make a good turkey gun...Use the extended turkey choke for longer shots and have a regular full or modfied for those shots from 20 yards in...

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

I had the same delima a year ago..trying to get a turkey hunting gun and should it be pump or auto-loading. I choose the pump. The pump costs less, and I can care for the pump a lot easier. Also, if you are turkey hunting, most of the time you are only going to take one shot anyways, so why get an auto-loader? Most of the turkeys I have shot at are around long enough to only shoot once!

Are you a younger guy whose shoulder can handle lots of recoil (get a pump) and if your shoulder can't handle a lot of recoil, then get the auto because it will cut down on the recoil a little.

Just my two cents...

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Since you want to snipe turkeys, just get yourself a 10 gauge.

3 1/2" shotguns were a marketing ploy between the ammo manufactures and the gun manufactures to sell more guns. They offer NOTHING that a 3" won't do. Get whatever gun you like, then do some research on chokes. Then buy about 5 different boxes of turkey loads and do some banging. I've cleanly killed coyotes out to 60 yards with my Benelli M1 Super 90 with 3" 1 7/8 ounce #2 lead with a modified choke.

nchawkeye hit the nail on the head with his last post :D

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

The pattern you get from a turkey gun is dependent on your choice of ammo, choke and pellet type. Not 3" vs 3.5". I've read articles that have proven that 3" shells have more range than 3.5". The article pointed out that your energy remains roughly constant because you have increased pellet count in a 3.5" gun. So there is no additional gain in distance or energy. They then pointed out what Rammer was refering to as the column length etc...

You'll do what you please but you may want to do some indepth research before you make a purchase.

Tom

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

My uncle and hunting buddy shoot auto-loading 3 1/2 magnums, one, a Charles Daly, and the other, a Mossberg 935, both of them use Hevi-Shot as ammo, works great, also, Patternmaster turkey chokes, and both were devastating on turkeys, but not too much.

The reason I really liked the Charles Daly is because you can shoot 3" and 3 1/2, since his 3 1/2 weren't patterning worth a crap (This was before he started using Hevi-Shot), we decided to try his Winchester Supreme 3", #6 shot, they were really beefed up shotshells, and kicked well, and patterned excellently out to 40 yards, but from what my uncle tells me, he liked the Hevi-Shot better.

I actually shot my first turkey using the 3", but just from target practise, I see how the Hevi-Shot works better.

Heavy-Shot claims to be "Heavier than the average lead", which is supposed to combat deformation.


Here's a link, they actually do make it in 3", but if possible to get, I would prefer the 3 1/2, just because my family and hunting buddy have great experiance. With them.

The ammo does cost $25.00 a box, that's $5.00, so that's why they say, "I didn't come this far to miss":DPretty cool stuff, it works, and when added with a Patternmaster, look out turkeys!!!!
http://www.hevishot.com/products_turkey.html

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Well, what do you guys think of the set-up I had in mind?

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Ah, c'mon, guys, don't leave just because I might have offended you.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

YG,

Nobody's offended. You've asked for advice and you've gotten it. Now make up your mind and go buy your new shotgun. You'll love whatever you get because it's yours.

BTW - Turkeys aren't indestructable.

Also BTW - If you really enjoy turkey hunting, you wouldn't want to shoot a turkey much past 30 yards. The excitment is in getting them close. At least it is for me.

Tom

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

The way I see it from a lot of experience both working on guns and using them are these thoughts. #1 3" is really all you need in 12 gauge with modern premium ammo. #2 a 12 gauge in 3.5" will never pattern as good as a 10 gauge 3.5" with all other things equal. #3 getting socked with 12 gauge 3.5" is considerably less plesant than 10 gauge 3.5". When I was still using shotguns for turkey hunting(pre bow only),and taking hunters out,I had 2 browning bps 10 gauge that I had worked on. This work consisted of backboring,tapering forcing cone,porting,honing,hand honed choke tube blanks,full saddle mount for red dot sights,etc. They would put out ALL shot at 38"-40" at 60 yards with right loads. They were heavy but had very light percieved recoil. It's all how ya want to hunt.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Funny you mention that, the turkey I shot at 33 yards was one of two turkeys that snuck up on us.

Turkeys do have a tendencyof sneaking up on people. Of course,if I werehunting inthe woods here in TN,it would be thick enough that the farthest shot I would get would be at 30 yards, and most of the time, it's going to be much, closer, more like 15-20 yards. So I would be able to use the shotgun at close ranges, too, but many times when we're hunting on a field when the turkeys are heading for the roost, we have totake some long shots, becauseyou cancall all you want to at that time, but those turkeys are going to ignore you and go to bed, just fly up in theroost,that's why my uncle hadto shoot his turkey at 50 yards. It'sjustthe type of situations we hunt in for my area, and I could have my shotgun adjusted, like different chokes, or ammo, in case I needed to, but what I had in mind was what works for my uncle and hunting buddy, and they've beendoing it for several years longer than I have.

I still have to save up, I won't have enough money till later this fall.

I was just wondering, what is the price ofa Mossberg 935? You know, 3 1/2, camoed, no thumbhole stock, just a shotgun.
Price of a Charles Daly, I can just go to Wal-Mart and check it out.

"Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart, that's our store,
We shop there because we're poor.":D


It would be awesome if I find a Benelli Super Black Eagle in 3 1/2, for $500 like stalkingbear. Or a great deal on a 11-87, which is more possible, time will tell, because I won't be going to the gun store until I have money to spend, no need to tempt myself to get into debt for the rest of my life, lol.:D

I wouldn't mind getting a 10-guage, butthe ammois more expensive, less available, and the shotguns themselves cost much more, like the SP-10, it seems to cost more than the 11-87.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

The hell with the shotguns, just get yourself a bow. Thats the way I can do it, and I can kill them past the 50 yard mark with ease :D

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

You never "have" to shoot. Thats the kind of thinking that cripples game. Turkey hunting, and hunting in general for me is not about how far, but about how close. I happen to shoot an 835 that will kill birds at 60 yards...and I have killed them at 56 before. However, the older I become the wiser I get. I limit myself to 40...and thats when I am not hunting with the bow...where the limit is 25. If you just want to kill turkey's...go get a .22-250...you don't have to worry about calls, or decoys or getting up early. Nay the price of shells.


What stalking bear said about the ten gauge and the 3.5" 12ga is RIGHT DEAD ON THE MONEY. My 835 (which I have spent Lord knows how much time and money on, testing chokes, shells, etc etc) shoots better (as in tightness and eveness) than all buy ONE other 12ga I have ever seen. That gun belongs to my best friend...and it too is an 835. That said, I haven't seen too many 10 gauges dedicated to turkeys that can't flat out perform them. It might be close at 50...but I have shot 10 gauges in testing that will shoot a pattern at 80 yards like most guns will at 40.

My taste in turkey guns has changed over the years as well. I used to want just the tightest shooting gun around...and for the most part I have it in a 12ga. But, after barely killing a few birds at 15 yards or so with it (cause that pattern is about the size of a dixie cup), I started going back the other way again. Normally, if a turkey comes within 70 yards...he will come within 30 yards if you are set up right. More often than not....they will sneak in on you and you won't see them until they are already inside of 25.

Stop worrying about shooting birds a mile off. And also, a pump gun makes a better turkey gun, because it is less expensive and lighter in weight. Yes it kicks more...but you will never feel recoil shooting a turkey. And if you do..then you ought to quit hunting.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

My shotgun will shoot the 31/2 inch shells but I have never bought any and never will. 99 percent opf the time I shoot the 2 3/4 inch and now and then a 3 inch.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

What? Your shotgun shoots all three rounds? What kind is it?

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Well, I just don't want to get a shotgun I don't want to use later, why is it, that most people choose an auto-loader, instead of a pump? There has to be a reason.

I was just saying, my uncle and friend use 3.5 magnums, and have never had any regrets.

I always did think, though, that the Benelli Nova Pump was cool, heavy, but it always seemed like a sweet turkey gun.

I honestly doubt I'll have to shoot turkeys at 50 yards, since my uncle never had to until that point, but I think I must have a great pattern at 40 yards at the least, no less.

My uncle's Charles Daly, isn't heavy at all, it's a very slick handling gun, not heavy, it's pretty light, the 935 can be a bit more heavy, but, when turkey hunting, weight oughtn't to be an issue, until you have to go back to the truck, with the weight of your equipment, gun, and a turkey.

But wouldn't a sling help the weight issue? It sure as heck helps when I am deer hunting with my rifle, and I never had any issues with the weight of my rifle.

I work out, with wieghts, so weight hasn't been much ofa problem for me, and the thought of getting a gobbler, keeps me lugging along that gun in my hand, blind over my shoulder, backpack, chair, whatever.

My friend, who was testing the Hevi-Shot with his Patternmaster, I was there too, he first fired at 20 yards, and it patterned well, about the size of a mouse-pad, at 30 yards and 40, the spread was very large, as is normal.

Funny thing, though, my uncle had to shoot his turkey on opening day, for 5 yards away, because, it was getting time to roosting time, and the gobblers were entering the field, so my uncle got out of the blind, and entered a ditch that ran the length of the field, he then got out near the riverbank, below the ridge onwhich the turkeys were on, so the plan was, for him to sneak around, and stick his head up over the rise, and get a shot at one of those gobblers.

Well, the gobblers started to head into the woods he was at, so we called him, and after we told him, my uncle was hanging up the phone, when he saw a beardedturkey 10 yards away! He just froze, hoping they wouldn't see him, and they didn't, so they were passing by a tree, and my uncle got his gun lifted and ready to fire, and when the turkey stepped out, this time at 5 yards, he shot it. Of course, the pattern was pretty small, but he got it.
Later on, looking at the pictures, we found out it was a bearded hen. Needless to say, all that action got him pumped up!:D

I don't want to make a practise of shooting turkeys at 50 yards, 'cause likelier than not, I'm not going to get that chance very often, but like I said before, 40 yards is what I really want to have a great pattern at.

My friend, who shot his turkey with the Hevi-Shot and Patternmaster choke, shot his at 25 yards, and, it patterned great, wasn't too tight, wasn't too little.

I enjoy hunting the turkeys, sorry if it sounded like I just wanted to break the law and hunt them with a .22-250.:D


I just was wanting to get what the people I hunt with have, which works.
I don't know if it's peer pressure, or just sticking to what I'm familiar with.

I'll talk more to my uncle, and see what he also thinks about it as well, I never heard himsaythat he thought it patterned too tight, but he may have since changed his mind.


Sorry I'm taking so long and spending all your time, it's just this kind of investment isn't a small deal for me.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Sorry, I've been feeling brain-dead the yeasterday on this thread, it almost seems grueling to talk here, it's depressing. I feel like I'm insulting everyone, because they talk about their experiances, and I just say that what they're saying is dumb, and I go on talking about how "my friend uses Hevi-shot, anda patterm..a.......ste....."

Sorry about all that. I don't know what to do now, I'll just go and read my Bible for awhile.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Younggun,it takes a man to realize and admit when you are wrong,especially in public. All we are trying to do is help you avoid the costly mistakes that we made before finally discovering the hows,whay not to dos,and best equipment. I admire you for being big enough to accept our opinions based directly from experience.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

Same here.

RE: Should I get an Auto-loader, or Pump?
 

From what I could tell, and from experiance of buying a gun in a gun store, you don't really go to the gun store knowing what certain gun you want, but you have an idea of what you want, and if you see a gun that fits what you want in every way you want, that's the gun.

I will not know what I will get, but I know what I willwant from my shotgun, and the only way to get any gun is to find it first, then pay, etc.

WhenI get enough money and get in the shopping mood, I will go to the two gun dealers in my area, (not Wal-Mart), and look at their guns, their specials, the used ones, and look at all the guns, find the best choices from both stores, and eliminate them, and get the one that's the best of what I can get.

This doesn't mean I won't get a pump, if I see an excellentpump-action that's got everything I need, I might just get it. I'll just have to wait and see.

A good example of this is that when I was lookingfor a rifle, Ithought I wanted a Remington 700 SPS in 7mm-08, but I saw one, and suddenly, the rifle looked boring to me, and didn't "speak" to me much, and it was just under $500, very expensive for what appeared to be nothing, so we left and went to another gun store, where one of the guys that worked there was helping us out in choosing a rifle.

I told him I wanted a 7mm-08, and there were none in the used guns, so I thought "Be ready to rip out the cash", I was looking at some others, and there was one, but it was a youth model, and something about that didn't appeal to me.

I saw a Remington673, and hours of drooling over the Remington website made me know exactly what it was. I recalled seeing the very expensive prices on the website, and I thought, well, it's always cool to hold an expensive rifle, andI looked at the price tag, and it was $300 less than usual, because it was from a Christmas sale.
I saw that it was in the .308 cartridge, but I figured, "It's an excellent cartridge, and it's a popular sniper round, whereas the 7mm-08 isn't."
Suddenly, I felt really good about that rifle, and I never let it go, since I was afraid someone would take it.

I am still proud of that gun, and always will be, but the funny thing is, I didn't get what I set out to get, I got better.

But, the point is, I will have to wait till I actually see what the gun stores have.

Thanks for all your help, you've helped to give me an idea of what I do want, and that'll make all the difference in what I get.
Thanks again, I'll try to remember what you guys said, and hopefully, the next time I have a thread about shotguns, I will be more specific.

Josiah