What next to improve my groups?
 

I have a newly bought Savage 10GXP3 .223 that I intend to use for Coyote hunting.

I shot three groups of four shots today at 100 yards and they were about 4-5" across. I was shooting off a bench on a Site-in and Clean plastic tray. I'm still using the Simmons 8 point scope that came with the rifle. I was using cheap Remington UMC MJ 55grain ammo.

I feel like my technique was pretty good. I braced myself on the bench, found my mark and very slowly squeezed the trigger. In 5 to 10 seconds the gun would fire, always a surprise. I do have a year of experience shooting my adult air rifle in the backyard. This is my first powder burner.

What I want to know is how to reduce my groups. Is it me, the ammo, the gun, or the scope? I bought the gun intending to replace the scope, I just haven't made up my mind yet. I'm leaning towards the Nikon Buckmaster 3x9-40 or the Leupold VXII. Also going to replace the rings and mounts.

The ammo I intend to hunt with is Hornady 55gr Vmax. I'm just using the cheaper UMC MJ ammo to practice with and set my scope.

Also do groups get better as the gun breaks in?

Thanks for any advice.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

First- Make sure your barrel is free floating. Take a dollar bill from the front of the stock and slide it between the barrel and the stock. It should slide all the way down to the action with no resistence.

Second- That Simmons Eight-Point isn't helping much, toss that thing in the trash and get a decent scope.

Third- Ammo does play a big part in accuracy. Your gun may not like that ammo. Try different types until one groups better.

Fourth- Sometimes guns are just not accurate out of the box. ;)

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

UMC is good for plinking and plenty cheap, but not so accurate. With a new scope, you could use it to get you in the ring and then switch over to your hunting loads. I have had really good luck with silver bear, and it's almost as cheap. I get 2-2.5" groups from the silver bear 223 shooting it out of an AK sporter carbine. Killed a 6 point with it in Nov. and was impressed with the expansion of the HP.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

1. UMC is cheap
2. Simmons is garbage

start by fixing those two things. Then look to your techinique. I doubt you've been shooting long enough to recognize andcorrect yourself if you are doing something wrong. Get someone that has been shooting and have them help watch and make sure you aren't jerking etc.

I don't shoot Savage so I don't know what kind of potential you can expect from them but If you can get down to 1.5-2" I'd be pretty content.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

I agree with changing the scope and likely ammo as well. Good starting points anyways. I did get very good accuracy, 1.5" @ 100 yards while breaking in the barrel of my savage American classic, .300 win mag while using Wolf Gold ammo, so even cheap ammo can shoot well.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

First - from my experience with Savage - your 4-5" groups is way out of the norm. Before you go and dump the scope, even thought isn't a very good one, take it off and check to make sure the bases are tight. Reinstall and check the ring screws to ensure they are tight.
Next - I assume you don't reload as this is your first 'powder burner' is to try different types of ammo to see what one your particular rifle likes the best.
Clean your rifle well after each shooting session with a good quality powder and copper solvent. using a bore brush and patches. The rifle will shoot better after it get a couple hundred rounds through it.
Lasty, for coyote hunting, if you shots are going to be normally long, I would recommed you getting a scope in the 4-12X range. Depending on your financial situation - get the best scope you can afford. Leupold, Burris and Bushnell are reasonably priced and are pretty good quality scopes.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

I would switch ammo before I switched the scope; cheaper to try and find a solution that way.Your rest must be solid enough thatthecrosshairs aren't moving out of the "10" ring -- a solid rest is the key to good groups.So, change up the ammo and get as good a rest as you can, and make sure the scope is mounted tightly. Try again, and tell us how it goes.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

What groups are you getting at 50 yards?

Tom

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

I can't totally disagree with any suggestion that have been made thus far, but I can take exception to some.

To begin with I wouldn't go out and "trash" the scope just yet. I'm not a fan of Simmons scopes at all but there is no need to scrap it yet. I wouldn't even change ammo yet. Granted I believe to get the best accuracy you will eventually do both of those things but not just yet.

My first suggestion would be to stop using the site and clean plastic tray to shoot from. It may be sufficient for an air rifle but "powder burners" are another story. I would guess that you would have much better results with plain ole sand bags. that plastic tray is too rickity to shoot from. Get at least three Lead shot bags and fill them with sand. Use two to support the forearm andone to support the butt stock. Now you are shooting from a reasonable rest.

My second suggestion would be to turndown the pull weight of the trigger. Your savage hopefully has the accutriger, if so I'd turn it down as far as itwould go. that would probably give you a trigger pull of about 3 lbs thats a good place to start.

Now, its a good thingfor the shot to be a surprise solong asitisn't such a surprise that you jump.Rather than say a surprise I like to think of it as controlled. Ialways know when my trigger is about to break over. I now this because I've shot them so much. So my shots are never a surprise,But I certainly try to control them. I never want to jerk at the trigger, or slap at it etc. I try to push it with the tip of my finger rather than pull it with my whole finger.Push the trigger straight back towards the buttstock, don't pull it to one side or push it towards the over side. its veery important thatyou "follow through" That is to say that you should not pull away from the rifle. You should try to see the bullet hole form. Continueto hold your position for as long as you can.At some point the muzzle risemay cause you to lose your site picture though. With my heavy barreled 223's its not uncommon to maintain site picture and observe my hits/misses.

Now if you do all these things and you feel like you're shooting ability has exceeded the capabilities of the rifle then you can start experimenting with ammo or buying a higher quality scope etc.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

Wow, thanks for all of the great advice. :)

Using the Site-in tray I was able to keep the crosshairs exactly on the 1cm dot that I was shooting at. Even though it is somewhat flimsy, once I got my weight down on it and the rifle snugged up, I didn't have any problems keeping the sight on target. I might still try the sandbags though.

As far as the scope, I bought the rifle knowing that I would replace it so I might as well do it now and not have to worry about it. Just figured it would do until I decided on what to buy. It took me a few months to decide on a rifle! I figure the scope will be fine for plinking with a .22 RF but I'd rather have something nicer for a coyote gun.

I'm definitely going to adjust the trigger before I go back out. I meant to and just forgot. The pull IMO is way too stiff. A few times I actually stopped trying to fire and double checked the safety. Hopefully this will make a big difference.

Once I get a new scope, rings, and bases I'll also start shooting my hunting ammo, Hornady 55gr Vmaxs.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

chris

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

speaking for savage rifles here. I have one stevens in 270 win. besides the trigger (absolutely 0 ajustability) its a dream to shoot and hunt with. it will put bullet in bullet hole at 50 yards and only thing throwing it off at 100 is that darned trigger. thats with factory win. $10 box of ammo. Nice huh? now if I can just get a timney trigger in it ill be set!
Now that I have a 30-06 I was thinking it will become a cyote rifle. the .270 is flat shooting and fast (not the flattest or fastest I know but figure in cost and it cant be beat) but the 130 grain bullets im shooting just arent doing any thing but pokeing a hole once it gets to the hart of the deer. thats the reason for the 30-06.

now if I did not have the .270 and have a chance at a good deal, for a cyote rifle id look at .270 WSM or .204 ruger. and a .30 caliber for me deer hunting.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

I also agree that lots of good advice has been given here. I also highly recommend sandbags. Learn how to use them properly, and I doubt that you will ever want to shoot without them again, whether you use an adjustable front rest with them or not.
One of the biggest things you can do to improve your shooting is to learn how to organize the sandbags so you are not putting external pressure on the gun to correct your sight picture. When you snuggle into the gun, sight picture adjustments should be made prior to you putting pressure on the trigger. It needs to be sitting there in the rest, you comfortable with it, and all you want to do is get a good trigger squeeze at an immobile X-ring without having to force the gun to that spot.
I see far too many shooters gripping the forearm with the gun on a sandbag rest. If you are right-handed, The forearm of your gun should rest on the sandbags at it's midpoint. Your left hand should be adjusting the sandbag at the bottom of the stock near the buttplate, and your right hand should have a loose but comfortable grip around the pistol grip of the stock with the trigger between the tip of your finger and the first knuckle, or somewhere thereabouts that feels comfortable to you. Snuggle into the gun, make your final adjustments, use your left hand to fine tune the sight picture with the rear bag. Take a deep breath, let some out, and begin your trigger squeeze. The shot should come as a MILD surprise, but not to scare you. After all, you knew it was gonna go BOOM at some poit, right? Just remember to give steady pressure to the trigger when the sight picture is perfect. I feel sure that your shooting will improve if you follow these basic steps.

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

Pawildman, thanks for the advice on setting up the shot. I was wondering about how and where I should hold my rifle.

Well, I took apart my rifle last night to adjust the Accutrigger down. I noticed that one of the stock screws was barely tight and the other one wasn't much better. Maybe a loose stock could have been my problem. I also checked my scope rings and they weren't totally tight either.

I'm probably going to pick up a new scope, rings, and bases today so I won't be able to find out if it was any of these things anyway. After doing more reading I'm leaning towards the Sightron SII 3-9x40. Now I need to figure out what rings and bases.

Thanks everybody for the help!

chris

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

when i uyse sandbags, i do everything as you just said, but I find that when i dont hold the forearm, my shots are more erratic. When i dont hold the forearm, the rifle "comes up" about 3-4 inches after the shot and my groups arent as good. Is that just all in my head, or is the accuracy affected by not holding the forearm down when using sand bags?

RE: What next to improve my groups?
 

some rifle can be shot as Pawildman described which is know as free recoil, others like to be held. Yet others must be held to insure that you don't get a black eye.I personally prefer free recoil if I can stand it because it eliminates one more possible point where I could mess up. As I stated earlier it isn't always an option though.

If you must hold the forearm then there is a proper way to do it. Try to pull straight down into the bag. don't pull to one side or the other. Take a firm grip, but don't squeeze so tightly that you shake. Never, never, never, never lay your fingers over the barrel. I see this way too often. You should be touching the stock only. Touching the barrelin any way will change the harmonics and unlessyou apply the exact same pressure to the exact same spot everytime your groups will spread. Lastly don't grab the forearm until the very last moments. You don't want to be squeezing that forearm any longer than you must, to minimize the shakes.