Accuracy
 

It just kills me to read how accurate most shooters claim their rifles to be. As I read other threads, most claim to have "shooters" that are Sub-MOA. I believe most of this is pure BS. Most all current production rifles are accurate, but not consistentlt below 1" accurate. I have seen guys shoot 2 boxes of ammo, have 1 group below 1" (the rest in the 2" range), save that group and claim to have a "real shooter". BS! What about the guys claiming to have 1/2" guns? Most people I know do not have the skills to consistently shoot 1/2" even if the rifle can.

I am happy that my 3 rifles can consistently shoot below 2" with an occasional 1" group. If I had to guess, this type of shooting would be welcomed from most on this site so they could CLAIM they have an MOA gun.

RE: Accuracy
 

Whats really fun is when you ask them to shoot with ya, and then hear the excuses rolling. I have one honest submoa rifle. I will take anybodies challege that I can pull off a submoa group 4 times out of 5. All the other ones, I would take a bet on them. I got some that will pull it off most of the time. But always get pesky flyers. But I would a bunch are honest 1.5MOA shooters.

But then again, you are on a gun forum. And that means most are more interested in rifles and such than the rest of the crowd. I bet there are a few on here I wouldn't want to bet gun to gun on a challenge

RE: Accuracy
 

Yea well all of my rifles shoot .11in groups at 300 yards.:DNot really. I have 2 that i know can shoot sub-moa. A 30-06 that is between 3/4in and 1in with the right ammo and a 17 HMR where there are ideal conditions. I think my 204 might be able to if i find better ammo but im happe with the 1 1/4in groups im getting with it. The rest of my rifles are between 1 1/2in and 3in except my 223 with is around 15in at 100 yards for some reason.

RE: Accuracy
 

Wooow, specifics? Ammo, gun, rifling twist........

I have a friend that has a 1-8" twist in his 223. His groups were not good at 100 yards (3-4") if I remember right. When he gets to 200 yards and beyond, they tighten up.

Also, the faster twist is for shooting heavier bullets. So, possibly if you have a fast twist with a light bullet, or a slow twist with a heavy bullet, this could be your problem.

RE: Accuracy
 

I had a different post on here about it. Ive tryed everything to get it right and it just dosnt shoot well. its a Rossi Single shot i got for $100 new just to have in the truck for when im up to mountains. Ive tryed every different type of ammo i could get. I have around 16 half boxes laying around and i know i shot up atleast 10 other full boxes. The best group ive ever got is the first 2 shots out of a cold barrel they will be around 1 in but they are anywhere in the 15in circle.

RE: Accuracy
 

The better quality guns usually are and should be capable of sub MOA groups. Most sporter weight "afordable" rifles aren't. Although I expect more of my Tikkas, Sakos, etc., I'm happy if my "Remchester" deer rifle shoots 1 1/2" MOA with it's best ammo. Any worse and I sell it off.

I'm am amazed at the amount of rifles shooting 1/4" groups all day long on the internet. I've seen a number of shooters over the years shoot a dozen three shot groups, then pick out the best oneto show people what their rifle will shoot "all day long". I never knew there were so many world class target rifles and world class shooters until I learned about the world wide web :)

RE: Accuracy
 

Most people I know do not have the skills to consistently shoot 1/2" even if the rifle can.

Yes, there's a lot of truth to this. I happen to have had TWO rifles with which I once was able to "consistently" shoot groups of less than 1" @ 100 yards. I still have them, and they MAY still be able to shoot that well. I don't know, because I can't shoot that well any more!

Of course, there's a big question here too. As you noted, ONE .5" group does not make a half-inch rifle! How many tiny groups must a rifle shoot to qualify as a sub-MOA shooter? 2? 5? 25?




On the day I shot this (5-shot) group, I managed to shoot four other groups with that gunthat were similar, but this is the best one. I have not tested the accuracy of this rifle since that day, so can't swear it would do it again. (6mm/.284, 26" Douglas Med. Wgt. Premium Grade barrel, FN action, Leupold 7.5X fixed-power scope.)

RE: Accuracy
 

To me a 1/2in rifle must shoot 1/2in or better atleast 2/3 of the time it is shot.

RE: Accuracy addiction
 

If I was a bench rest target shooter or if I shot woodchucks at 300 yards, I would be pretty fussy about "sub MOA" capability from my rifle.

But I am just a run of the mill hunter who shoots at moose, bearand elk, deer,pronghorn and coyotes. I consentrate on teying to get within my effective range of my game and making a killing shot into the chest cavity at around 100 yards or less. If I have to I can make a shot too 200 or 250. (If I am hunting with my Win. M70 in.264 win mag. I can really stretch that out to 300 yards I suppose).

I am not as rich and smart and handsome as I sometimes claim and my rifles do not shoot as accurately as I sometimes claim. But they do the job.

Robin in Rocky

RE: Accuracy addiction
 

Good post!, i agree it's fun to talk about the one holers but thats mostly what it is, talk!
I use to be real fussy about the accuracy of my rifles but i think there's alot of truth to the statement "with age comes wisdom". I use to beat myself up trying to get a rifle to shoot in the same hole, did i ever do that? NO!, will i ever do that?, of course not and neither will anyone else.
I use to be so caught up with the accuracy hype that it completely took the fun out of reloading for a while. It became more of a job than a hobby and it wasn't fun anymore. Seems i forgot why i started reloading to begin with and that was so i could shoot more myself and with the kids which IMO is where 99.9% of your accuracy will come from to begin with....shooting more!

Don't get me wrong here, everyone loves to shoot an accurate rifle at least i know i dobut how accurate does it need to be. Iguess that depends on each individual and what type hunting they intend to do. The best group i've ever shot was with a 25.06 that measured 0.325 but that surely didn't make that rifle a 1/2" shooter.Have i ever shot like that again?, another NO! I guess the stars must have been lined up right or something that day :D.I went around with a big head for a while saying yeah i got a 1/2" rifle but that wasuntil i got back on the bench and reality set inand i done good to get it to shoot 1".

Very seldom will i be presented with ashot that will be 300yds so i don't need that. Heck a 2" moa rifle will still be in a 6" kill zone at 300yds if you can put it there. My main two rifles are a 25.06 and a 30.06 and both will shoot consistently around1" at 100yds if i do my part and i'm pleased with that and the days they (I)shoot 1-1/4"-1-1/2" i'm pleased with that as well.

Idon't have the time or the patience anymoreto get caught up in the 1/2" moa, tack driving, one holerstuffsoi leave itto those who do.I spend my timethese days reloadingto shootwhich is why i started reloading to begin withandguess what?......thingsare so much simpler! ;)

RE: Accuracy
 

I'm gunna get shot here,and I agree with you mostly,but here goes my own thinking on this. To begin with,I am a gunsmith for 26+ years and ex competition shooter/accuracy freak. In vast majority of cases you are right. When I talk if a 1/2 rifle,it should be able to group into 1/2 inch at ANY and every time I shoot it. I do build rifles that group that good. However-these are far from factory rifles. In fact,about only things that are factory on these are reciever and those are blueprinted,fitted,trued,or otherwise modified. We are talking in excess of $400 just for barrel blank,prior to fitting,turning,threading,and chambering. I do believe we all need to optimize our rifle/load/scope/our skill to shoot the bestwe can within reason. All this having been said,most people(including me) make too much of a rifle's accuracy. A rifle that will CONSISTANTLY group 1.5 inches at always same point of impact,is better than a tighter shooter that shifts point of impact every time you pick it up. After all,a 2" rifle will still hit deer farther than we can while under field conditions.

RE: Accuracy addiction
 

I just read a bit in a magazine on a very similar topic.

The author was at a range and another fellow was shooting a bunch of different handloads of diffrent types of bullete to see what he would use on an upcoming Elk hunt. The other fellow had it down to two diffrent bullets he liked and was shooting his final groups to deside.

He shot a 1.6 in. group with a 180 gr. spitzer type bullet and a 1.1 in. group with a 180 gr. round nose bullet. And said "I guess that desides it, I'll take the round nose bullets that are more accurate."

The author offered to let the fellow run a couple shots through his Chonogragh and they found the spizers were going 2558 fps. and the round nose, 2267. Down range the spizers would have had even a greater speed advantage, trajectory advantage and energy advantage.However the fellow thought the better group was the better bullet to hunt with.

Robin in Rocky

RE: Accuracy addiction
 

Well I'm one of those guys I guess. I don't own a rifle that doesn't shoot sub MOA. Now none of them are true factory rifles, most have had extensive modifications. If I buy a rifle and fiddle with it for awhile and can't get it sub MOA I either use the action for a custom job or trade it off.

Heck, I've even been known to sell/trade real shooters. This last weekend I was reminded when I watched my dad put together a .074" center to center 5 shot group with a Cooper Varminter 22-250 that I sold him to help finance a Elk trip a couple of years ago. He giggled when he saw my expression as we measured the group. You can believe me or not it really doesn't matter.

RE: Accuracy
 

Can't really say I care much about sub-M.O.A. groups. I have one dedicated big game rifle (factory 700 ADL, shooting factory ammo, with a fair amount of copper in the bore at any given time) that I consistently group 1.25-1.5". It's fun to shoot even if I do get that bad flyer, and the deer don't know the difference whether I liquify a lung an inch this way or that.

To me it's all about putting that first shot where you want it, not shooting a jagged hole from the bench. Good enough is good enough.

RE: Accuracy addiction
 

While I agree the majority of (70%)shooters are fair ,20% are poor and the rest good with perhaps 1/2 of that outstanding.
With the exception of2 centerfire rifles I have owned all are capable of delivering better than MOA groups. The Rifle that couldn't was a Browning BLR in 308 that I purchase in 76. But considering it was only used with the factory open sights for hunting in a swamp where 20 yards was a long shot the 1 3/4 -2" groups @ 100 didn't mater much. The other is a Winchester 375 H&H which gives me1 1/4" groups. I've owned two Weatherby MK V's that delivered 1" or better at any time with Weatherby's 180gr nosler parts.
I shoot either Hornady or Federal Premium ammo in what ever bullet shoots best and have great results in 22-250, 308 (own 3 others besides the blr)and a 7 Rem mag
If off a bench and sandbag I shoota group greaterthan 3/4 " center to center with a "flyer" and you better believe I'm going crazy and checking the screws and out come the crony if I get more than one of those. The norm for me is 1/2 " or better.

RE: Accuracy addiction
 

Most rifles with good barrel. will shoot one inch or less when you find thats rifle best load. You can spend a lot of time and ammo finding that load and a good trigger is very important. Not all rifles will do it but some of us as already mentioned, don't keep those rifles around. Now, Am I capable every day of shooting one inch or less groups? NO, NO, NO. There are days that I try a few shots and just put the gun away. If I am shooting well, then its a good day to measure groups.:D


A One inch rifle however with a good shooter behind it, should be able to do it all the time if the ammo and weather is consistent.

If I can cover three shots with a poker chip, thats good hunting accuracy for the ranges I hunt which seldom exceeds 250 yards.

RE: Accuracy addiction
 

The vast majority of those that have replied have made my point. The average shooter with the average rifle and ammo is not capable of CONSISTENTLY shooting under 1". Sure if I put enough ammo through a gun that consistently shoots 2" I will eventually get a group beneath 1". This sure as hell does not mean that I have a sub moa rifle. Many shooters on this site have sub moa rifles but they are not the norm. I also believe that those that consistently shoot sub moa are not your average shooters. They are shooters that invest more time and energy into their abilities and equipment then the vast majority of us.

RE: Accuracy
 

lots and lots of sub MOA groups are shot on the internet;) not that i dont believe some people....but sometimes i know it aint true...or they are measuring 1 shot groups:D

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RE: Accuracy
 

All of this reminds me of a remark made by either Warren Page or Jack O'Connor, about other gun writers of that era: "You'd be amazed to see all the game they've shot...with their typewriters!

RE: Accuracy
 

Most of my rifles are capable of sub-one minute groups. Only two of them have so called "premium" barrels. Most years i fire 5-20 thousand rounds of .223 to .30-06,most arehand loads.When i'm having a good day with little or no wind, my favorite .308easily shoots .5 inch three shot groups at 100 yards. It has a Remington factory barrel.

RE: Accuracy
 

I totally agree.The cooper that I mentioned earlier is what I would classify as a semi custom rifle. Itsas itcame from the factory with the exception that I adjusted the trigger to 13 Ounces. it is capable of sub 1/2 MOA with the occasional zero group if all the stars ailign properly. But, I would not say that every cooper is that good.

There is such a thing as flyers though. I can take my 6 BR, that is capable of sub 1/4 MOA accuracy and if I'm not shooting well that day I would be hard pressed to keep it under 3/4. Some days the shooter just doesn't have it together. A flinch here or a slight pull there, or a misread on the wind and you've thrown a flier outside of your nice little group. It happens. Fliers are not mystical though, they generally can be classified as operator error!;)

You want to know the quickest way to make a factory rifle sub MOA? throw the barrel away and put a custom barrel on it, and let someone else shoot it.:D

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RE: Accuracy
 

I have owned many, many rifles over the years. Some have shot well out of the box, some required a little tinkering, some required re-bedding and perhaps a trigger job. I have had rifles re-barreled. All were load-developed for. None shot .5" consistently. Ones that did that on occasion more frequently shot 1'' as the norm. Those are what I refer to as a sub-MOA gun. A previous poster was correct when he said that most flyers are really part of the group, but I will add that applies if we are absolutely positive ALL the components of our reloads are totally uniform. Another thing that I sometimes find a little fault with is shooting 3-shot groups. I understand that most people will justify this by saying that 3 shots is all you probably will ever get at game. That may be so. However, in my opinion, that is not enough to indicate proper potential of a load combination. 5-shot groups will tell a lot more than the 3-shot groups. Weather conditions can play a big part in this, also. A gun that shoots great at 30 deg. may not shoot that same load well at all at 75 deg.
I do feel that there are sub-MOA guns out there, but I don't feel that too many of them exist in the hands of those who aren't as fussy as others.

RE: Accuracy
 

Never heard of "flyers" not counting as part of the group until i came on this forum. If you are shooting for group, of course the "flyers" count.

RE: Accuracy
 

When I talk about "flyers it's the shot that opens up the total group to
3/4".

RE: Accuracy
 

I had two rifles that could do it, I sold one recently and the other will be buried with me. My sporterized AK(223) was doing 2.5-3" goups at 100 with iron sights, so I put on a 4x scope and the groups only went down to about 2". I got one group that was .75", but have yet to repeat that feat. I can see my target better but that's what the gun can do with the cheap silver bear ammo. I haven't tried the scope yet with the good stuff.

RE: Accuracy
 

I agree that the internet is a magical place where mystical things constantly happen but if you think claims of sub 1 inch groups with a factory rifles are exaggerated then you need to dig up some of the threads on long range shooting. Apparently heart shooting a deer at 1500 yards backwards over your shoulder using a mirror is easy as pie and those of us who can't do it just don't practice enough or take enough care with the quality of equipment we use. LOL! That said I do own 2 rifles that will shoot 1 inch or better groups if I do my part. The other centerfire rifles I own will shoot about 1.5 inch groups and thats fine for hunting purposes.

RE: Accuracy
 

I have no doubt that many 1" and sub 1" guns are out there. I have a Rem 700 and an A-bolt that can outshoot me on any day. The vast majority of shooters are not limited by their equipment but vice versa.

When I was younger I believed most of my accuracy "problems" (1"-2" groups) were caused by my equipment and thus I was always pulling out my wallet to acquire that new magical weapon that would allow me to reach my true potential. After much money spent and many days shaking my head, the onset of middle age finally made me realize the "problem", me. I realize now that I will never be a great marksman but I also know that a whitetail does not care if I shoot .75" or 1.75" groups.

RE: Accuracy
 

I had a trap shoot to go to today and decided id take my 204 out to shoot if we got done early. Well we did and i shot one of my better days today so i figured id share what my factory rifle is capable of.

This is 5 shots at 100 yards.

RE: Accuracy
 

Here is 10 shots at 200 yards. Sorry bout the quality of the pics im not too good witha camera yet.