Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

I wrote about a model 70 Winchester .308 that I recently purchased. I shot it today for the second time. The first time I shot 20 shots at 5 shot groups and got mostly 2 inch groups and a few 1 1/2 inch groups. That was at 100 yards. Today I fired 4 shot groups and I fired 3 groups. The distance was 100 yards. I shot 2 inch groups 2 times and one 3 1/2 inch group.
My observations so far are this: The Rem. core lokts shoot the tightest groups. They are the ones that averaged 1 1/2 inches, and if I would have been firing 3 shot groups a couple would have been around 1 inch. The Winchester PP's shoot the second best averaging around 2 inch groups. Both the Rems and Winchesters hit within my 2 inch bullseye. I tried Federal Hi shok 150 gr. today and the one group I fired with them is the one at around 3 1/2 inches, but also 3 inches left of the 2 inch bullseye and 2 inches high above the 2 inch bullseye. They were no where near zero. To use these I would have to resight. I put them away and am staying with Rems and Wins.
I also noticed that as the barrel warmed up the groups would open up no matter the ammo. I looked at targets from first time out and today and every group that I shot with a cold barrell, the first shot hit within 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the very center of the bullseye. Each succeeding shot would get a little further away. Even at the 2 inch groups at 100 yards is this acceptable accuracy with hunting loaded factory ammo? If not what would be? and What can I do to try and get my rifle there? Considering the given performance, what kind of improvement could I expect if I were using handloads? Thanks for all input. I want to be excited about this rifle, but I don't know if it is shooting accurately enough considering all the MOA talk I read on the forum. Thanks again for any help.
Whitey

Whitey

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Whitey

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

When I sight in my rifle I wait at least 5 minutes between each shot to let the barrel cool. With my gun, as the barrel gets hotter the shots progressively move higher and to the left. I think most guns will do this but maybe move in a different direction. I will also run a patch with a little solvent through it and then 2 or 3 dry patches after each shot. Depending on you and your gun/scope combo 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups are good for hunting in my opinion although we'd all like to be able to shoot a 5 shot 1/2 inch goup at 100 yards. As for the Federals, I wouldn't use them either since they had the worst group. The fact that they were high and left is no big deal, just the group size is the problem. Just keep the barrel cool and clean and you should be just fine.

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

I shoot three shots then let the barrel cool completely.For my three shot groups I do not wait between shots.If the bedding is good three shot groups should will not be a problem.If the point of impact is moving with the second and third shot you have a problem with the rifle which is probably related to bedding.

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RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

Theres lots of bologna floating around about accuracy and hunting rifles. Everyone doesnt report their accuracy in the same terms. Some folks will tell of the best group they ever shot with a given rifle and some will get close to reporting what the gun will do in every case. Your groups sound fine to me. I think like Stubblejumper says that you may have a bedding problem. A properly bedded rifle shouldnt walk shots off as the barrel heats up. The dispersion will increase but in a random fashion. If it was me, I would read up on bedding and start using handloads. Those two things would be most likely to tighten the groups I think. If its shooting 2 inches with factory ammo, you will be able to get some 3 shot groups under an inch without much difficulty after fiddling with the bed and trying some different loads. Good luck.

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

2" with factory ammo, espeically coreloks. Can't ask for much better with no work done to the guns yet or no reloads. Do you have any copper issues still or is the barrel well broken in yet?

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

Larry338 is right about the balogna floating around about groups. If you listened to some of the claims at the local gun shop or on the forums, you'd think all your guns shot terrible. I've watched too many guys shoot 2" average groups all day, then luck out and shoot a 1/2" group. From that day forward his Remchester 498 Magnum is a 1/2" rifle. I've read claims on this forum of "consistantly" shooting one ragged hole at 300 yards! That's bull, pure and simple.

I've shot rifles from the bench for years, and know that 1 1/2" from a sporter weight rifle is acceptable shooting for most factory rifles. I've shot benchrest guns that consistantly tear one ragged hole at 100 yards, but these are special guns with carefully worked up loads. And even then there are days that they just won't do it.

Proper bench technique can also make a big difference in group size. I see tons of people either lifting the rear of the rifle off the bags or jerking the trigger when they shoot. I'm not saying you are doing that, but sometimes it helps to have another shooter try the gun as well.

Edited by - diyj98 on 12/10/2002 07:39:00

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

Larry338 is right!! Your rifle is performing as well as, or better than, most of them do right out of the box! It is plenty accurate enough as is for any ranges at which any reasonable hunter should consider shooting at a ghame animal.

Keep yore powder dry!!

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

look the lungs on a deer consist of an area about the size of an 8" pie plate. at whatever distance you can consistantly put 5 shots on that 8"pie plate, thats your max distance

propmahn
save the world, reload your brass

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

If one is looking to see what a hunting rifle will do there's two things I'd avise. One is in the beginning reach a little deeper in to one's pocket and try as many different factory offerings as possibble. Make it cost effective maybe you have a friend who has a rifle chambered in the same round , you can split the cost while experimenting. Second keep your strings to 3 shots. In hunting situations most will be lucky to get two shoots let alone three and five would be out of the question 99.9% of the time.
Then it's practice ,practice ,practice. I've found that most rifles will shoot better than most are capable two and that if you shoot factory ammo Hornady and Federal are the two most consistent offerings on the market from box to box.
Most of my big game hunting I do is with a 7mm rem mag. in a LH Rem 700 DBM.. When I do my part the rifle delivers 1/8" center to center 3 shoot groups @ 100yards and 3/4" when I'm not and have a flyer.

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

Sounds pretty good to me. It should be noted some people(i am one of them) take a few rounds through the barrel to get used to the new gun. One thing I may suggest is have your trigger adjusted down from the factory setting, I have done this with all my rifles and it does make a difference. I only shot 3 shot groups and feel it is waste to heat up and fire that extra shot or two. I would also suggest triing other bullet styles and brands before you decide exactly what bullet you think is the most accurate. In factory loads I have always found Hornady or Fed. Prem. to be the most accurate, box to box. I use to like Winchester Prem. but they stopped producing the results i was use to...I haven't been back since. As far as bullet style my guns all shoot Ballistic tip style bullets better than any other, however you may require to use different types for different hunting situations so it is always good to have a log that tells you what bullet did what out of your gun. I always suggest prem. shells for hunting, why spend all the money on gear, equipment, tags, etc...than only to skimp on the shells you load. Just my opinion!

Handloading can make a difference if you either have an experienced loader in mind or get the help being one yourself. I have seen many a factory round out due a inexperienced handloader who just loads the case to max all the time and doesn't take into account bullet seating, etc. I think handloading is a craft or art, some are real good, while some are ok and others just are plain bad. In no way is it a gaurantee to being more accurate and I believe experience as well as skill are very important with handloading. I guess in simple terms it ain't as easy as it seems to me. Not to scare you from doing it, just make sure you have some help and research it thoroughly and don't expect MOA's the first time you fire your handloads. I maybe wrong here, so guys who are handloaders please feel free to correct me!

All in all 2" is darn good for factory run of the mill shells and a new gun IMO. I bet you'll find with time, practice and little honing your groups will drop.

RE: Opinions on Group Sizes???
 

Update! In the past 2 days I have taken two deer with this rifle. Both one shot kills. Both shots around 50 to 60 yards. The first was shot broadside right behind the front shoulder. Guess what? Thats exactly where I hit it. It did the textbook heart shot jump and ran about 40 yards and pilled up. The second one I shot with it facing me. NO broadside, no quartering or anything, but the confidence on the last deer convinced me to take this shot. I shot it with it facing me right between the front two legs at the brisket. Guess what? That is exactly where it hit it and dropped it on the spot! I guess that this rifle shoots game more accurately than paper. Anyone ever experienced that? To beat it all both shots were offhand. I used the Winchester PP 150 gr.
Whitey

Whitey

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