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A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

Old 11-24-2006, 08:06 PM
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Default A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

We all have our own experiences, and preferences, but for the common good of sport hunting maybe we should think about these things:
1. Suggesting very light, or very heavy calibers to newbies is not good!
A. 90% of hunters probably don't have the accuracy to use light calibers that require pin-point shooting.
B. Probably the same 90% should not be hunting with "magnum" cartridges either! Going with the mythical "over-gun," probably loses as much, or more game than the ultra-light cartridges!

2. For the sake of meeting the NEED of most shooters, suggesting something like the .25's on through the 7MM-08 should take care of ANY deer alive!

3. In suggesting cartridges to a newbie that is going to spend XXX dollars on a gun anyway, why point them towards a light or heavy cartridge, that requires more experience than neccesary!
A. For that matter, that goes for a 30-30 too! (I know, I've heard it a thousand times, "my first gun was a 30-30 or a .22 centerfire!" None of these should be considered "rookie" cartridges! The 30-30 does not have the range for rookies, and the .22's again, just are not forgiving of any in-accuracy!

Finally , (and this is the whole point, if it was missed!) Consider that what you are suggesting, light or heavy, IS NOT best for everyone! A persons size, recoil tolerance, and experience, MAY or MAY NOTbe up to either extremes of cartridges!
With the recoil reducing technology today, (not to mention that deer do not require "magnum force") it is pretty safe to say that anyone that cannot handle a .25 through 7MM-08 should maybe be "observing" and not actually shooting!

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Old 11-24-2006, 08:38 PM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

I totally agree. I like to point out what I think are the strong and weak points of all the calibers that I have expierence with to help people make a decent choice. Now I don't like pain and never have. Many rifles in use today have far to much recoil for me to want to shoot if the power it provides is way more than I need. I like a medium weight rifle with a fairly long barrel. I tend to recommend that type of rifle to someone who I think really wants to know. I quess I lean to far the other way. Its a rare occasion indeed where I would buy or recommend a big magnum rifle to anyone who will probably never hunt anything but Varmits and deer

I can still enjoy shooting rifles from the 223 to the 270-308 range. Few times in my hunting life have called for anything much bigger. My outfitter in Canada owns a 308, a 22 and a 12 Ga. He says he has never found a use for anything else although he would like to be able to pack a 44 Mag Handgun.

To each his own thing but if I can enjoy shooting it, it won't have much recoil.
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Old 11-24-2006, 09:06 PM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

I think we should try to match the cartridge to the game and range, and deer are not the only game animal. But the hype out there is something else. I always see a bunch of good, barely used magnums up for sale after each hunting season.
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Old 11-24-2006, 11:06 PM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

Good point about matching the game and cartridge. We talk about deer a lot because there are probably 20 deer hunters to every one hunter who hunts game bigger than deer. Its good to be able to cover all the bases.
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Old 11-25-2006, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

ORIGINAL: JagMagMan

We all have our own experiences, and preferences, but for the common good of sport hunting maybe we should think about these things:
1. Suggesting very light, or very heavy calibers to newbies is not good!
AGREED!

A. 90% of hunters probably don't have the accuracy to use light calibers that require pin-point shooting. BUT THEY CAN SHOOT BETTER WITH A RIFLE OF LOW RECOIL AND MUZZLE BLAST.

B. Probably the same 90% should not be hunting with "magnum" cartridges either! Going with the mythical "over-gun," probably loses as much, or more game than the ultra-light cartridges! CAN'T SAY....

2. For the sake of meeting the NEED of most shooters, suggesting something like the .25's on through the 7MM-08 should take care of ANY deer alive! MAKES SENSE

3. In suggesting cartridges to a newbie that is going to spend XXX dollars on a gun anyway, why point them towards a light or heavy cartridge, that requires more experience than neccesary! SAME AS NO. 1 ABOVE

A. For that matter, that goes for a 30-30 too! (I know, I've heard it a thousand times, "my first gun was a 30-30 or a .22 centerfire!" None of these should be considered "rookie" cartridges! The 30-30 does not have the range for rookies, and the .22's again, just are not forgiving of any in-accuracy! ROOKIES SHOULD NOT BE TAKING SHOTS THAT ARE TOO FAR AWAYFOR A .30/30. WHILE IT IS POSSIBLE TO KILL DEER WITH A .22 CENTERFIRE, I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND TRYING THIS!! TO ANYONE!!

Finally , (and this is the whole point, if it was missed!) Consider that what you are suggesting, light or heavy, IS NOT best for everyone! A persons size, recoil tolerance, and experience, MAY or MAY NOTbe up to either extremes of cartridges!
With the recoil reducing technology today, (not to mention that deer do not require "magnum force") it is pretty safe to say that anyone that cannot handle a .25 through 7MM-08 should maybe be "observing" and not actually shooting!
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:30 AM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

The 30-30 does not have the range for rookie
ORIGINAL: JagMagMan

The 30-30 does not have the range for rookies...
Dubious assertion. What is a 30-30 good to - 200 yards or thereabouts? In my world, that is a LONG ways. Heck, I've never shot any deer more than 90 yards out - that was with a .270, but most any rifle would have done. Point is... if a guy is a new hunter/shooter, do you really want him making a buying decision based on a ballistic chart? Many do, but that is due to innocent ignorance. And should newbie be shooting 200+ yards at deer? From field postions, not a bench? They can, of course, but I'd recommend against it. But then, sometimes I'm a lousy shot. Hitting the deer is one thing; hitting the right spot on the deer, especially as range increases, is quite another.
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

CM,
I know that a great many hunter's first gun was the 30-30.
There is nothing wrong with the 30-30, if you know your limits! That is where I don't care for the 30-30 for most newbies!
As most newbies, are not good at estimating range! I've had a couple of bad tracking jobs for rookies due to them stretching their limits!
To be fair to the 30-30, and even fair to newbies, there are many seasoned hunters that will over stretch their limits with any calibers!

My biggest pet-peeve is hearing the statement " it was such a big buck that I HAD to try the shot!" Horse Feathers! It's either do-able or NO SHOT! Trophy, spike or doe!

Again, nothing against the 30-30, but along with the unltra lights, and ultra heavies, they are just not a very "forgiving" cartridge for beginners!
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:44 AM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

I'm all in favor of common sense. My first deer rifle, twenty-some years ago, was a 30-06. Since then I've gone owned and killed deer with 270, shotgun (using buckshot, running dogs) and a couple of muzzleloaders. So I've approached the 30-30 not as a beginner looking for a first rifle, but as to what will fit me now. I got the Marlin because it is short, handy, very 'carryable' with one hand, looks lovely, and is sufficient cartridge. I usually hunt in the woods, have never taken a shot past 90 yards. I know what the charts say - 30-30 has less energy and swoopy trajectory compared to more modern centerfire, blah blah blah - but 30-30 it seems very practical. Practical isn't real sexy, but it is... practical. 30-30 is a step up from the muzzleloader I've been using for the past five years.

I hear what you're saying about more modern cartridges taking the guess work out of long shots... my point is, the new shooter - and many veterans - ought not be taking those long shots. Give a new hunter a .270 and tell him he's got a 300 yard rifle, and he just might believe it and take a Hail Mary shot he has no business taking.

I'm right on this - IMHO, of course - but my objectivity is suspect, as I'm now smitten with my new 30-30. On first trip to the range to sight it in yesterday, the first 100 yard group (after boresighting and getting on paper at 25/50) was 2". I was delighted. I'll report back how it does in the field, next few days. Here's the Marlin, back from the range:




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Old 11-25-2006, 08:37 PM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

JagMagMan

I agree with you in principle. But I don't know why you would eliminate the 30/30.

A bow and arrow in the hands of anyone who has practiced with it should be a deer killer to 40 yards or so. If you strech it and take a shot you shouldn't it could wound. Many bow hunters will tell stories about a nice buck they saw at 60 yards that they would not shoot at but if they had a rifle (30/30 maybe) or even a muzzleloader they could have taken it.

Muzzleloaders depending on the type and the amount of load developemant and practise shooting should be effective to 100 yards or so.If you exceed your effective limit you will have wrecks. Many a muzzleloader has said " I saw this great buck at 110 yards but it would not come any closer into my comfort range. If I would have had a 30/30 I'd have had him."

No doubt fellows packing 30/30s have seen a fantastic buck at 250 yards and said they could not justify taking the shot, but if they would have hadthier 7mm mag. and a big scope it would have been down.

I agree with you that most beginers are going to enjoy shooting "tamer rounds" and shoot them better. They are more likely going to get a chance at a deer at 200 yards or maybe much less. If they see a great buck at 250 (or beyond their comfort range)they had better learn that it is not a shot for them to take.

I was out with my son hunting deer and he was carrying a Rem. 788 in .243 that he had not shot a whole lot. We saw a small buck at about 125 yards. I was never more proud of him as when he turned to me and wispered, "I'd like to get a little closer, I'm not sure I can hit him good from here". Well maybe I was as proud of him when I rattled in a good buck and he killed it with one good shot at about 40 yards.

Robin down under
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:47 PM
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Default RE: A little good, common sense advice! (hopefully)

ORIGINAL: JagMagMan

We all have our own experiences, and preferences, but for the common good of sport hunting maybe we should think about these things:
1. Suggesting very light, or very heavy calibers to newbies is not good!
A. 90% of hunters probably don't have the accuracy to use light calibers that require pin-point shooting.
B. Probably the same 90% should not be hunting with "magnum" cartridges either! Going with the mythical "over-gun," probably loses as much, or more game than the ultra-light cartridges!

2. For the sake of meeting the NEED of most shooters, suggesting something like the .25's on through the 7MM-08 should take care of ANY deer alive!

3. In suggesting cartridges to a newbie that is going to spend XXX dollars on a gun anyway, why point them towards a light or heavy cartridge, that requires more experience than neccesary!
A. For that matter, that goes for a 30-30 too! (I know, I've heard it a thousand times, "my first gun was a 30-30 or a .22 centerfire!" None of these should be considered "rookie" cartridges! The 30-30 does not have the range for rookies, and the .22's again, just are not forgiving of any in-accuracy!

Finally , (and this is the whole point, if it was missed!) Consider that what you are suggesting, light or heavy, IS NOT best for everyone! A persons size, recoil tolerance, and experience, MAY or MAY NOTbe up to either extremes of cartridges!
With the recoil reducing technology today, (not to mention that deer do not require "magnum force") it is pretty safe to say that anyone that cannot handle a .25 through 7MM-08 should maybe be "observing" and not actually shooting!
I agree, to a point, if a guy can shoot his Big Boomer accurately, why not let him blast away at something as defenseless as Deer or Coyotes? Does the guy using his .300 Win Mag have just a right as anyone to hunt game with it? If he can accurately shoot the gun? One of the big trends these days, is seeing people buy guns that are way over their heads in terms of recoil and power, I work at a range, and see this crap all the time, in fact, I saw a guy just today, who couldn't keep his .375 Ultra Mag on a 10x10" target at 25 yards, why a guy needs a .375 RUM in Northeast Texas is beyond me. My opinion is, you should have at least5 years of shooting under your belt, before even considering a "light" magnum like the 7mm Rem Mag.
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