knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I see the term used from time to time but I am not sure how useful a construct it is for me. It seems like sometimes the beasties run, and sometimes they seem to know they are done and ker-plop. The brainshot piece I grasp, but those are highly accurate shots and poachers can use 22 Hornets for those.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

like you said....sometimes they drop....sometimes they run. once i shot a deer at a couple FEET away. i was hidding behind the right tree as it ran up the mountain. absolutely drilled it. the exit was bigger then my fist no joke. it ran 100yds. i dont know how it did it. only stopped because it ran smack into a boulder. bullets transfer alot of shock and energy..(kinetic energy) but tend to pass through most of the time once you go so large in caliber size..wasting some energy into the backstop. i had guys tell me that NO lung hit deer will drop..i say fooie to that. ive dropped more then 1 with solid double lung hits. the ones that run for me are heart hits. but they dont make it far. neither do double lungers that run. i dont think its a big deal if the deer doesnt drop. no deer around is going to make it far with a blown out heart or both lungs with big ole holes in them. factor in the shock and trama from the bullet and they shouldnt go more then 100yds. if i dont see them fall ill wait 15 minutes before i take up the track just to be safe.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Nock down power is a myth. No bullet carries enough energy to the target to actually knock down a deer sized animal. A bullet kills by causing trauma to the vital organs. Sometimes a rifle will transfer enough energy if hit in the right spot to shock the nervous system and the deer will collapse from it. But you really didin't nock it off it's feet.

I shot a deer last year with a 600 grn slug at 20 ft. Probably a couple thousand ft/lbs of energy from that load at that distance. It punch right thru the deer and it ran 90 yards before it died. I took out the top of the heart and destroyed both lungs.

Here is an excellent link if you want to read all the information on it.

Terminal Ballistics

Paul

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

A very interesting link. I did not read it all but saved it to study later. Many hunters base their opinions on the "performance" or a cartridge or bullet on a small number of experiences with it. "I once shot a deer with a "X"and it fell dead right away"! or "I saw a fellow shoot an elk through the heart with an "X" and it ran away andwe never got it".

There are so many factors about 1. the condition and state of mind of the animal. 2.The the angle and location of the bullet entering and traveling in the animal. 3. The construction of the bullet, its velocity and how it acts in the animal.

I think we have to define what we mean by "knock down power" before we can say flat out it is a mith.

Robin down under

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

There is a study they did in that link where they shot several deer with different calibers and noted the reactions. None of the calibers were consistant at dropping game on the spot.

I believe when one talks about knock down power they want something that drops the deer in its tracks. Unfortunately there is no weapon that does that everytime. And a lot of it depends on shot placement. And many actually believe that a rifle can take a deer off from it's feet and litterally knock it down.

Paul

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I think the most common confusion would be the "mythical, knock down power" and energy! Energy is important, but shock, organ damage and blood loss is what kills! Nothing "knocks them down."
With the same cartridge, bullet, and shot placement, some fall, and others run. I've seen deer stand there and act as if they didn't get hit, and then keel over dead, others that run straight forward, are not "knocked off stride!"
In the world of velocity, the bullet has long since passed through them before they even think about running!

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Not exactly to the point but something I think plays a part. I had a friend that ran a home animal shelter, she called one day to have me dispatch and process a doe that had been brought in with a broken neck. The deer was alive but paralzed, you could clearly see the bulge in the neck and it did not move anything but its eyes and ears. However, if you startled it the animal would attempt to run while lying down, all four limbs would would take a running motion at full power. It was explained to me by her that the deer had a flight reflex that was like a subconcious event. was she correct, I don't know, but I saw what I saw.

I almost never kill an animal in its tracks. I use 270, 7mmSAUM, and 50 cal mz loader and shot placement is almost always behind the shoulder within a couple of inches of the crease defineing the shoulder. Because of this I now use heavy constructed bullets to insure exit wound. I know what someone will say(if you shot a lighter constructed bullet, with no exit all energy expended in animal, more dead-in-tracks kills, but I have alredy been there and don't agree). The biggest difference I see in a heavy constructed bullet and light, with my usual shot placement is that theyrun about the same distance but with no exit wound are harder to find.

If I use the technique of hitting shoulder or leg bone as it passes through the chest the animals seem to lie down immediately, but too much meat is damaged.

So is it the breaking of bones, or the shock that is transferred through the skeleton that in my experience takes down the animal. I guess shock, deer with broken hooves or even lower legs are common around dog hunters and they move very well on three legs.

Point 1 - Shot placement seems to me to make a big impact on Knock-Down.

I have read articles and thought quite a lot on bullet diameter vs knock down power. Easy math says that a larger diameter bullet will impose more energy to be expended at the moment of impact. I think this quick burst of energy to the mass of an animal hasa "Stunning" value, the larger the diameter the more "Stun", and remember area formulas, a minor diameter increase will be a large surface area increase.

Point 2 - Surface area of bullet on impact will dictate how much energy is transferred at that time.

I am glad you brought up this point, I plan that my next purchase will be a big bore, but used for southern whitetails.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

A cannon ball at about 100 fps would probably knock a deer over, and the closest thing to that that I have hit a deer with is a 460 gr. slug out of my muzzleloader at about 12 or 1300 fps. The deer stood there for a brief second as the bullet punched through it like it was a piece of cardboard, and it ran 30 yards and died.

Even in hydro-shock kills, the deer really isn't "knocked over". Even though I have had a few of those, I'll take a bullet that provides a good blood trail to follow any day over trying to deliver all the energy into the deer. A good blood trail is insurance for me.

C. Davis

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Theres no caliber that can give knockdown everytime. But I do think the more shock and kinetic energy, not to mention expansion, can give better odds of a knockdown. That or shooting the spine, which should never be done on purposse IMO. Theres too many variables, but it could have something to do with whether the deer in on guard or relaxed, shot thru the shouder blades.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

First of all a deer doesnt know its been shot to the extent that we do. We look at from our view and think the deer should too.They feel pain and run unless terminally hit as has been discussed. I saw a friend try to kill a dog he shot it with a pistol and made a bad hit. Its eye was hanging out of its head, it still ran back to his house and want him to pet it. It just freaked me out !!!! So why am I telling you all this story it didnt know it was shot it was hurt and went to where it was safe.
Now as far as knock down power , there was a myth busters show about this that explained it in detailto me . They shot a manquin with various caliburs and up to the legendary .50 bmg. None of them made any difference to the impact of the test. SoI always had the thought that it was a myth but that test proofed it to me. So what do I like in a bullet design-- wound channel and static shock. I want the animal to bleed and bleed fast if its not going down right away. Now as far as static shock I normally like big bore rounds (.44 mag,.444,45/70 ) I just like that big bullet frontal,it seems to make a great big wound channel and they expire quickly.The other thing I want is a good hit so I practice alot and on deer targets ,not bullseye targets. I feel alot of people can shoot the bullseye but when looking at a deer and no bullseye they tend to shoot at the whole animal.This causes alot of bad shots, the oh sh_t where do I shoot syndrom.
I dont believe in Knock down power just good bullet preformance and good shooting skills

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I agree CD, a cannon ball would probably be good for "knock-down!"
A 2X4 to the head would be knock-down power too!
But, bullets have already done their jobs, before the deer can think about running!
It is hilarious on TV how when someone gets shot, it picks them straight up, and then throws them backwards!! Only in Hollywood!
In reality, (unless you hit heavy bone) neither the human body, nor deer have the density to provide enough resistance to a speeding bullet, so as to "knock them down." So the animal either drops, or runs.

Now for the next part of the debate, a "complete pass-through" or a bullet that transfers all its energy, and does not exit.
It gets tricky here too! I prefer a complete pass-through, with the RIGHT amount of bullet expansion. Some might argue that this is "wasted energy." Whereas a bullet that has stopped, utilized ALL of it's energy in the animal.
Maybe yes, maybe no. With the wrong bullet, a pass-through can be terrible, no expansion, no blood trail.
On the flip-side the bullet that stopped in the animal, did it expand too quick, and "explode" on contact? Or was it under-powered and did not pass through?
Again, I prefer the complete pass-through, with a GOOD bullet! It delivers just as much as, and in some cases MORE energy, than the bullet that stopped inside the target!

Again, "knock down" is a MYTH, except in bowling and boxing!

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

In many years of hunting, I have seen bullets exit, stay inside and come apart on impact. Any bullet however that has penetrated into the vitals and beyond has done the job well. As mentioned already, knockdown power is just in the movies. All you need is to get that bullet into or through the vitals. High Shoulder and neck and brain shots oftenAPPEAR to have knocked the beast off its feet but it just don't happen.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I like what one bullet maker asked (I don't remember which one)
"Exactly at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail?"
The only bullet failures that I've seen are some of the Ballistic Tips comming apart on impact, and not reaching the vitals, and I've had two 7MM RM's, that judging from the exit wounds, they did not expand at all!
In all my deer hunting years, I've only recovered 2 bullets, all my others were pass-throughs. The one I really remember is a 165 gr. Nosler Partitioner in .308 Win that lodged between the shoulder and the hide. It was perfectly mushroomed at least twice the original diameter!
I think that most of the bullet "failures" are a result of a poor choice on the shooters part with the wrong bullet/caliber for the situation!

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

knockdown power... fact or myth?

I guess it all depends on how you define it. However, as portrayed by Hollywood, where a guy catches a shotgun blast and is literally picked up and carried away, is HOGWASH (or something less polite!!) If you subscribe to Newton's Third law of Motion, no projectile can ever deliver a greater blow to the target than is evidenced by the recoil effect in the opposite direction.

For example, some people thinkthat "a .45 ACP bullet will knock a man down regardless of where it strikes him". This too is B.S.! I once watched a demonstration at Fort Bragg NC in which one sergeant fired GI .45 APC Ball ammo at another sergeant's hand who was equipped with a Kevlar "catcher'smitt", with which he was CATCHING THE BULLETS and holding the mitt out palm up so the audience could see the bullet he just caught! Range, about 15 feet. Each time the bullet impacted the mitt, his hand jerked backward some, about the same amount as did the hand of the guy shooting the pistol! I therefore assume the mitt weighed about the same as an M1911A1.

The only time a knockdown occurs is when something is done to the quarry by the effect of the bullet that prevents the critter from continuing what it was doing when hit. This effect generally involves damage to, or at least temporary interuption, of its' nervous system - not necessarily a brain or spine hit, but a shockwave that effects its' nerves in a massive sort of way. For example, I have shot black bears that fell at the shot, then got up and ran a short distance before keeling over, deader than a doornail! Were they "knocked down" by the bullet? Nope, not physically. But the nervous shock of the bullet passing through their chest cavity was sufficient to short-circuit their system for a short period of time. They recovered from this shock, recovered muscular control, got up, and started to run away before the lack of oxygen from the destroyed heart & lungs caused their system to go offline permanently.....

Hollywood aside, I think the myth of "knockdown power" may be promoted by the ballistics tables, which show kinetic energy figures in terms of "foot-pounds of energy". This term is defined as "the number of feet that particular amount of energy will move a 1-pound object if all the energy is expended on the object." Now, who believes that a bullet carrying "3000 foot-pounds of energy" will actually move a 1-pound block of some material that traps the bullet in it3000 feet downrange? Or that a 100-pound object will be moved 30 feet? If you believe this, I have A slightly used bridge in the vicinity of New York City for sale cheap.....

Maybe what we need is a new system for measuring bullet energy. For example, we all admit that a .22 caliber, 55-grain bullet rated at 1500 foot-pounds of energy will do an entirely different job on a woodchuck than will a 400-grain .45/70 bullet carrying the same ft/lb rating.....

One is an elk load, while the other obviously is not!

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

My only trouble with Ballistic tips also happened with the 7 MM Mag. These were some of the early BT's One did the job but the other only made a big welt. The first one went in behind the shoulder, turned 90 degrees and came out the hind quarter. The other hit ther shoulder and didn't penetrate at all. The Ballistic tips have been improved several times since then and NOW IMO are amoung the best deer bullet out there. One should stay with the heaviest per caliber BT's for game bigger than deer. I also keep them loaded to between 2600-2800 fps.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Just something FYI. I hunted last year with 150gr swift scirocco bonded bullets in my 7mm mag. These bullets will devastate a deer. Imean, pass thru every time with a quarter sized entry and a fist size exit with a behind shoulder shot. They will break both shoulders and still pass also. 50-300 yds, ive made all these shots and they always pass and expand awesome. You guys should try them in your 7mm's. Please try them!:DYou wont believe it.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

You have it right except your still thinking about energy transfer. Energy does not kill. You have to stick with tissue damage, and an expanded bullet crates more tissue damage than one that does not expand well, and an expanded bullet that passes through causes even more tissue damage than one that does not, thats all it comes down to, has nothing to do with energy transfer. Not to mention two holes will alow a deer to bleed out faster than one.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Not to argue, but if energy does not kill, then why would point-blankmuzzle blast kill you even if the bullet missed, why will high levels of sound kill, why will you see splits and trauma in hearts of animals that were not Heart-Shot?

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Knockdown Power.... Fact or Myth?

As always it depends on your definition of "knockdown power" and that is the challenge in this exercise.
Change the definition, change the answer.

The folks that study this stuff have identified over half a dozen elements and measurements seeking to quantify the elements of "killing power". In most cases someone from the other side can make some sort ofargument against what is offered, hence hardly worthwhile to dive into that brain damage.

I will say this though ---going for something more fundamental....
Leaving out CNS shots, hunt the same game species multiple times under challenging field conditions (no blindhunting)firstusingweaponry with light bulletsandnarrow calibers and then do the same with the heavy bullets and wide calibers (medium velocity or better).Whenyou're done observing many well aimed shots and the corresponding differences in the game's "reaction to impact", then I am confident you will know (ata very fundamental,base level) the difference in what Ipersonally call "knockdown power."

When the sound you hear come back to you from the impact on game isakin to a5 pound sledge striking a saddle pommel following a full house swing, then you know you're getting there.... K-THUD.

IMHO, one of the more notablebenefits of ample "knock down power" becomes apparent when thingsaren't just right/or don't go just rightand you're on a mission to go out there and get'er done sometime before next week because it is a 5 day season and that bad boy isn't "whitetail posing" properly.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I agree that a bigger chambering with more energy has a better chance of knocking a deer down than a small cal with alot less energy and velocity. And it comes in handy when the deer is quartering towards and you need to bust the shoulder. I like to use an adequete cartridge, such as 30-06, 270, etc. I wont deer hunt with a 223 :D
I know thats its said that knockdown is a myth, but to me, id think a 300 win mag would do it before a 243, so theres gotta be something to it. I mean, theres really no evidence either way.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Many things enter into KILLING power. Bullet size, bullet weight, bullet velocity, bullet energy and bullet placement to name some of them. When as many of these come together at one time, the more knockdown power that you have. Leave any of them out and you are more apt to have undesirable results. Good shot placement is critical regardless of what else you have.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

James that is exactly what I was saying, wound channel and static shock!If you have alot of tissue damage they will die quickly and more humane.That is why I like my 45/70,out to 150 yards not even a contest.But you still have to have shooting skills.Not a good paper puncher, a good hunter. Proper hunting skills make you a good shooter.I have hunting buddies that can shoot lights out at my range,put them in the field whole new deal.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I have never heard of just a muzzle blast killing anything, I call BS on that, the only thing that will happen is youd get burned.
Wound channel is the only thing that kills, I do tend to believe in static shock, I think thismight have something to do the deerfalling or running. Some run and some fall and it aint got nothing to do with energy. I have dropped deer with a 22 mag double lung and have seen them run with a 300 mag, and vice versa.
Bullets knifes and arrows all kill by blood loss, however bullets tend to have hydro shock which seems to drop some in there tracks, but even then I have heard off arrows dropping deer in there tracks from a simple double lung, I dropped one from an arrow to the lungs one time but it got itself together and got up and went a few yards before falling again. Arrows offer no energy to speak of.
My friend got shot in the groin just to the side of his stuff, with a .25 auto and it put him down immediate, even though it did really nothing to him, they even left the bullet in there which worked its way out months later. He said it felt like a punch and his legs just gave out on him.


And I dont want to hearhow 22 mags are illegal, I know that and dont recomend using one either. I was young once........once.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I have heard of many cases of people being killed by accidental discharges of blanks. There have been a few celebs that have died from this.

Also the muzzle blast from a rifle or shotgun has enough force to do you in if it's pointed at your head.

However the weapon would have to be very close, like contact type close. Would be no different than putting a small shape charge against your head. The force of the gasses coming out of the muzzle would be enough to split your skull.

Paul

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I have had the muzzle of a 12 guage go right off within an inch of my head, nothing happend to me but a damn ringing in my ear. ( damn brother-inlaw)

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Yeah, Brandon Lee killed himself with a blank!
Wound channel, or energy, whatever you want to call it, it takes velocity and weight to do it! To a certain extent, it doesn't matter, more velocity and less weight, or more weight and less velocity! You can't over do it, but you can under do it!

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Yea, but try standing in front of a 300 ultra mag, just out of the way of the bullet path. I havnet tried, but if you want to, go for it.:DMuzzle blast can kill, it's happened.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Not so. That pistol had a bullet lodged in the barrel from earlier testing with low velocity bullets or something they were doing, then when it came time to film they put blanks in it and it was just enough to get that bullet out of the barrel and kill him.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Not exactly, the bullet grazed him, leaving a flesh wound. The impact from the blast killed him.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I have seen a plexiglass hood protector shattered when a shot was fired over the hood of a truck from a 300win mag.We found all of the pieces and the bullet did not touch it at all.Muzzle blast can have a fair amount of energy.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Not exactly not even close. Copied and pasted

As filming finally neared completion, eight days from wrap to be exact, yet another accident would rock the slip-shod production. Several prop masters, in an attempt to save time and money, made a grave decision regarding some bullet cartridges that were to be used for a scene involving a close-up shot of a handgun being fired. During the scene, the gun was loaded with "dummy" cartridges, which are used for close-up shots because they contain the actual projectile on the end of the cartridge but contain no gunpowder. (It looks more realistic if the viewer can see the bullet tips in the pistol's cylinders.) It seems that the prop department didn't have any of these "dummy" cartridges on hand, so rather than shut down the production for the night, some Bozo decided that he'd "rig" some of the live rounds. They removed the gunpowder from the cartridges and replaced the bullet tips thereby giving them the "dummy' rounds that were needed for the close-up shots. At some point, one of the tips would unknowingly come loose from the cartridge and lodge itself in the barrel or cylinder of the handgun. (The subsequent investigation never conclusively determined how or why the bullet tip came dislodged.) This seemingly innocuous oversight would not only set up the tragic event that ended up shutting down production after all, but it would also provide Morbidly Hollywood® with its next fascinating tale of death and morbidity.

As shooting of the close-up scenes finally wrapped, it was now time to move on to the scene in question. It would call for a wide shot of Brandon's character being shot from a handgun that was loaded with "blank" cartridges. These blanks were loaded into the handgun not knowing that somewhere in the barrel or cylinder, there was a whole or piece of a dislodged bullet. "Blank" cartridges are different from "dummy" cartridges in that the blanks are loaded with highly explosive powder to give the handgun the smoke and muzzle flash associated with having fired a live round.

Filming was taking place in Eric (Brandon's character) and Shelley's apartment. The scene called for Brandon to enter a room where actor Michael Massee was to shoot him using a revolver loaded with blanks. Brandon, wearing black leather jacket and boots, and a t-shirt bearing the prophetic phrase "Hangman's Joke" entered the room carrying a sack of groceries. As the .44 caliber revolver fired from about 12-15 feet away, Brandon set off the "squib" which is supposed to simulate bullets hitting the grocery bag. Brandon then collapsed to the floor, bleeding profusely from his right side. Many later commented that they noticed he did not hit the floor in the same manner as he had in rehearsals. Brandon groaned and signaled with his arm that he was hit but everyone was too busy with his individual roles to notice. The director yells "cut" but Brandon doesn't get up.

Brandon was rushed by ambulance to the nearby New Hanover regional Medical Center in Wilmington located at 2131 S. 17th Street. Upon his arrival he still had vital signs and it was decided to perform emergency surgery to stop the bleeding. The bullet created a quarter-sized hole in his lower right abdomen before perforating his stomach and several more vital organs. The "bullet" finally came to a rest next to his spine.

The doctors couldn't stop the severe internal hemorrhaging. He died in the hospital at 1:03 pm on March 31st, 1993, 12 plus hours after the shooting. The investigation determined that the tip of the "dummy" shell had come dislodged and remained in the barrel unnoticed. The "blank" cartridge fired with enough force to propel the broken bullet tip out the barrel and into Brandon.

The official cause of death is listed as gunshot wound of the abdomen. His body was flown back to Washington state where he was buried on April 3rd next to his father in Lake View Cemetery. The next day a memorial service was held at his actress friend, Polly Bergen's house in the Hollywood hills where many celebrities attended including David Carradine, Kiefer Sutherland, David Hasselhoff, Lou Diamond Phillips and Steven Seagal.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

See I knew they were wrong :DI just guessed for the heck of it though. Man, thats some crazy sheit.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Ya sounds like some backyard shadetree film crew. sad

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Like the jack black character in the new king kong movie :D

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

That has happened twice, there was another actor that got shot filming because someone swaped out the blanks for real ammo. I forget who it was though.

There was also at least one actor killed filming something with a blank. It's been years ago though and I don't remember who it was either. I think it was something to do with TV? Anyway I think he put the gun to his head goofing around and it had a blank chambered. Killed him when it went off. I have heard of other instances as well.

Having one go off near your head and having it pointed at you are too different things. The force of the gas coming out of the barrel is very directional, especially at close range. Like I said though, I think you would almost have to have contact with the target to do real serious damage unless it was a really high powered rifle.

Paul

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

From snopes:

Jon-Erik Hexum (died 12 October 1984)
Hexum died of a gunshot wound after he accidentally shot himself in the head with a .44-caliber magnum pistol loaded with blanks while on the set of the TV series Cover-Up. Wadding from the blank cartridge had been driven into his skull. Hexum was replaced in the series by Antony Hamilton, but the show didn't last all that long, running only from 22 September 1984 to 6 July 1985 before being canceled.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

OK, I don't mind standing corrected!
I'm sure almost everyone has made a shot in near-dark conditions with a rifle or handgun, 3-4 feet of fire (muzzle blast) if you were in front of that, the bullet wouldn't matter much!

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Muzzle blast at night is aesthetically pleasing to me.:DMy 7mm will blow a ball. While the 30-06 blows a streak.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

I have to disagree with the fact that you can not knock down a deer with the power of the bullet. My dad shot a doe a couple of years ago with a 175gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and the doe fliped over completly and landed with her feel facing use so she rotated side ways 450 degrees. Now i dont think she did that on her own im pretty sure that was because of the shot.

RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
 

Absolutely no way a rifle did that to something the weight of a deer. She probably jumped when he shot her and did a flip. Deer can do some crazy things when shot, and they can jump very high.

I think most of the time when someone thinks they see a deer get knocked off from their feet they had a spasm or jumped when the bullet hit them. I have shot one with a bow and it did the same thing, and there is no way a bow has that much energy, especially mine.

Paul