First Rifle - Please Help
 

While I am an avid duck/dove/goose hunter I now want to get into deer hunting.

I am considering 4 different rifles for my first one: Remington Model 700 ADL or BDL, Winchester Model 70, and a Ruger M77 Mark II (w.ss barrel/synthetic stock). For the money, which of these offers the best value? I am trying to keep the gun itself below $500. Please provide me with unbiased (or as much as possible) opinions or experiences with each particular rifle. What are the pros/cons of each? Difference between Rem ADL and BDL?

I've also been told that the Mauser action that the Ruger has is an advantage although I have no idea even what it is. Insite?

I am probably going with a .270 caliber since this will primarily be for whitetail deer and feral hogs. I may also in the future do some elk hunting although that isn't much of a consideration at this point. Are there any other calibers that I should consider with this gun?

Any information that you can provide will definitely be helpful and appreciated. Thank you in advance.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

My personal preference lies with Savage rifles, however I will confine my comments to the 4 rifles you mentioned. My experience with Ruger rifles is split 50/50. I had one a few years ago that you would have had to tape a quarter to so it would be worth throwing away. I don't think it was an example of all Rugers, though I think it is worth mentioning. I recently shot my neighbor's Ruger and it is a dream. Smooth action, decent trigger and decent accuracy. Remington Model 700's (main difference between ADL and BDL is the stock quality and the floorplate on the BDL) seem to have gone downhill a bit lately in the quality control department but I have no complaints with the older models. Winchester's that I have shot were never quite as accurate as the Remingtons, but were plenty accurate for hunting purposes. I rate the rifles as follows:
1 Remington (as long as it is an older model, if new then #3)
2 Ruger
3 Winchester

270 Win is a good choice for a cartridge for deer, hogs, and loaded properly even elk. However, if you want similar ballistics and the ability to have more choices in bullet weight there is also the 7mm-08 and the 280 Rem. Both use a 7mm bullet which gives you great versatility. Again, I take nothing away from the 270, just throwing in a few options.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I own 2 Rem Bdls bought one last year{300 ultra mag} and the other the year before{243} I had to bring both into the gunsmith to have them worked on .Sent my 243 in twice to Rem told them it shot 6"groups @ 100yds.They sent it back and said there was nothing wrong with it.The second time I put a piece of paper in the chamber and when I got it back it was still in there.The guns shoot great now and are very comfortable for me,but I dont know if you want to go through the hassle.I bought a savage 270 didnt like it so I traded it in for a Winchester Stealth and boy does that thing shoot.I have several of my friends old Adls and boy do they shoot the newer ones I am not for sure.



Edited by - ploopy on 11/04/2002 18:33:18

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I have two Remingtons, 1 a BDL in 300 Win Mag and A sendero in 300 RUM I have had the BDL since 91 and I have never had any problems with it. I shoot this gun more than any of the others taht I have. The 300 RUM is new and so far shoots great. I also have a Ruger 77 That was made in 1976 and its also a good shooter. Its a 220 swift. I bought my son a Winchester at Walmart two years ago and again no problems. The only thing that has been done to any of them is to have the trigger adjusted. My sons Winchester 270 was under $400. with a scope included. He shot his first deer with it this year, a 175 yard downhill shot. I personally like the Rem 700 BDL better and I seen that Dick's Sporting goods have them for $519. in this weeks ad.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Eliminate the Remington right off the top because of the trigger/safety design. Bolt can be opened when safety on and eneviditably it will open from being snagged on brush, rubbed against a tree or just from bringing it from a slung position to a shooting position. It doesn't fire well with the bolt open. I know a fellow who lost the best buck he ever saw because of it. He immediately sold his Remington and bought a Winchester. He's still on the soap box lecturing others not to make the same mistake he did. Of the remaining two it's a toss up. Quality control is not what it should be at Winchester but it does have an easily adjustable trigger and it looks and feels good. Ruger quality (I think) is better than Winchester and it comes with rings but has a heavy non-adjustable trigger. A smith can polish up the Ruger trigger to about a 4 lb. release which is not bad for a hunting rifle. Out of the box accuracy is about the same for both Winchester & Ruger at about 1.5 to 2 MOA. I have a Ruger M77 Mk2 300 Win Mag and Winchester Compact Classic 7mm.08 which I have equal fondness for. My favorite, however, is my Win. Classic Stainless 300 WSM & Leupold Vari-X 111 2.5 to 8.

The Mauser style action which both Winchester & Ruger have gives you "control round feed (CRF)" instead of a push feed. This means as the bolt thrusts forward it picks up the round and securely holds it under the large claw extractor guiding it into the chamber. Remington and most others just push the round into the chamber. Advantages and disadvantages will be debated for ever and ever. Fact is most dangerous game rifles use CRF - this should tell you something about reliability. The other big advantage of the Mauser style action is the three position safety: when fully on it locks the bolt closed; at half position it's still on safe but the bolt can be opened to safely eject round(s) and full off to fire. I recommend you buy the Ruger, no the Winchester, on second thought get the Ruger, mmmmmmm maybe you should get the Winchester, either that or the Ruger... Good luck gg

"The instant you start talking about what you'll do if you lose, you have lost."

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I have been making a similar inquiry, and I have another log to throw on the fire. For the same money,the Tikka is actually more accurate, has a far better trigger, and the quality control is much betterthan the other three companies.

Having said that, of the choices you mentioned, if you can get ahold of a pre 64 model 70, grab it and run with it, but you won't get it for $500. Otherwise, the remington 700 ADL is the way to go. I own a Ruger and it shoots well, but the trigger pull is very stiff, and is not easily adjustable. The 700 ADL, with a synthetic stock will be very accurate, and relatively hassle free.

As far as calibers, that is a touchy subject. The hunting you describe sounds perfect for the 308, but I'm partial. The 270 is a great cartridge, and will fill the bill just fine. Good luck.

Workhorse- Hunt hard.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I was looking for a rifle a few years ago like yourself and after much researching and reading settle on the model 70 classic that has the claw extractor like the pre 64 models, shoots 1 inch groups with hunting loads, well built, GREAT trigger, trigger is easily adjusted, and excellent safety. And from all I have read and heard nobody makes a better trigger or safety than winchester. Do your homework.

there is no subsitute for quality

Edited by - Losthwy on 11/04/2002 23:18:11

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have been making a similar inquiry, and I have another log to throw on the fire. For the same money,the Tikka is actually more accurate, has a far better trigger, and the quality control is much betterthan the other three companies.

Having said that, of the choices you mentioned, if you can get ahold of a pre 64 model 70, grab it and run with it, but you won't get it for $500. Otherwise, the remington 700 ADL is the way to go. I own a Ruger and it shoots well, but the trigger pull is very stiff, and is not easily adjustable. The 700 ADL, with a synthetic stock will be very accurate, and relatively hassle free.

As far as calibers, that is a touchy subject. The hunting you describe sounds perfect for the 308, but I'm partial. The 270 is a great cartridge, and will fill the bill just fine. Good luck.

Workhorse- Hunt hard.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I'll also throw in the new gun... Tikka. You will be hard pressed to find a better trigger and action on any of the guns you mentioned. As for calibers the .270 sounds right up your alley for deer and hogs.

Tick a Liberal Off, Buy a Hand Gun!
http://tscott.fws1.com

ONE NATION UNDER GOD!

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Yes, it isn't on your list, but the other guys are right. The Tikka would be the best bet.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

If you can find one in good condition, I'd recommend a pre-'64 M 70 Winchester in .308 or .30/'06. Preferably the Featherweight version.......

Keep yore powder dry!!

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Check out the CZ 550, you get alot more for your money than with Remchester/savages.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... who's bringing the chips?

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

A lot of rem. haters here. I just bought a 700 BDL deluxe, I tell you it is a very nice gun and shoots great. I did lighten the trigger pull, but would do that on any new rifle. As far as the bolt opening if safe...who cares???? Least you can eject the shell without having to place in fire pos. Mole hills out of ant hills. I like detachable mags as well, but guys will say &quot;my buddy sold his after he shot and went to rechamber...but lost the mag&quot; Oh come on, don't you ever check your stuff. Opinions are what they are and that's mine.

I say look at them all, then decide what fits you, situation and your budget.

270 is a good caliber.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

...of the three you mentioned.. I'd probably go with the Ruger. Other than that, for the money, from what I've heard and read, I'd get a Savage.

&quot;Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness..those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.&quot; Santayana

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

dmanindallas, First of all welcome to the board......The Remington 700(not 710), Winchester M 70 and Ruger MKII are all good guns.Like mentioned Savage makes very accurate rifles for reasonable prices.Remington's quality has slipped over the last several years.I have all three model mentioned. I prefer my Ruger ,followed closely by my Remington 700.My Winchester M-70 is the &quot;Coyote&quot; Model more of a Varmint rifle. If you decide on any of these you mentioned you will have a nice deer rifle.If you plan on putting a scope on it ,do yourself a favor and buy quality optics.The 270 Win is an excellent deer cartridge. The Ruger MKII comes with Ruger scope rings. Until the end of Nov.Ruger has a 40.00 mail in rebate on selected rifles and handguns. Most of the M-77's are included in this rebate. Ruger Redhawk

Support the NRA...Protecting our Gun Rights and Freedoms is everybody's responsibility. Ruger Redhawk A proud NRA Life Member since 1977.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I'm with Skeeter, I love the bdl remington, very nice gun and also the .270 is a great flat hard hitting caliber.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Check out CZ & Tikka rifles as well,they are good rifles at good prices.
For a first rifle check out the 260 or the 7mm-08 as both of these calibres make excellent deer rifles & have less recoil than a 270,the 7mm-08 also has a greater range of projectiles than the 270.

What ever you choose have fun & enjoy it.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I have hunted with several 700's for thirty years and never had a problem with the bolt opening partly and the gun not firing.I would however choose a 7mm-08 or 280 rem over the 270 for a cartridge.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I think all of the rifles you mention will be just fine. Pick the one that &quot;feels&quot; best to you and you will be happy with it. Of the four, I'd personally go with the Winchester or the Ruger in 6.5x55 Swedish or .260 Rem, respectively. I just love a controlled round feed action vs push feed, and I dig 6.5mm bullets. But please don't cheat yourself and bypass the Tikka and CZ rifles, though. Check them out before you buy.

As far as the cartridge is concerned, you just can't beat the .270 Win for your purposes. The .270 has killed more deer (and elk) than the .280 and 7mm-08 combined and there is nothing that 140gr .284 bullets can do that 130gr .277 bullets can't. Same holds true for 150gr/.284 vs 140gr/.277, 160gr/.284 vs 150gr/.277 and 175gr/.284 vs 160gr/.277. You can easily find premium bullets for the .270 in all these weights and in various configurations and you will find many more choices in .270 Win factory ammo over the other two. I'm not saying to stay away from the .280 or the 7mm-08. Quite the contrary: I love both (especially the 7mm-08) and would recommend them wholeheartedly. Just don't let the old bullet selection argument sway you...there is simply no difference in the way the three rounds will perform on game with the bullets that are available.

Whatever you get, put the best quality scope on it that you can afford.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 11/06/2002 10:52:19

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

I'm really glad that you Remington owners get so much enjoyment from owning and hunting with a basically dangerous gun. One where Remington had to settle their case out of court and initiate a recall where they actually charged people 20 dollars to fix Remingtons problem. How bout that for Gall. The only thing that makes me mad is I have bought quite a few of these rifles and after all that have come to the conclusion that they are simply not worth the price, are made of cheap materials, are unsafe and have the worst customer service on this planet. If I were buying a new gun it will be a Winchester,Ruger or a custom rifle with a custom action.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Soarkrebel where are you? You need to defend your Remington's.Remington is getting hammered again. LOL.. Ruger Redhawk

Support the NRA...Protecting our Gun Rights and Freedoms is everybody's responsibility. Ruger Redhawk A proud NRA Life Member since 1977.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

OH ruger redhawk there are some that always have the same arguement ... boo hoo my bolt came open cause i bashed it against a tree!!!! it's the guns fault not mine! it won't group ! maybe its the operator!
and yes my remingtons are VERY dangerous!!! don't mess with them they will get you!!!
I have a safe full of remingtons and all shoot VERY well! i will put some deer in a ice chest this weekend with one of them i just can't decide which one?
Yes i will agree i don't like the new klintoon key and i have heard of finish problems with floorplates.
I personally would rather find an older remington 700 in decent condition. barrels are abundant and after market stuff abounds. you can build one however you want. thats me of course.
if not remington i would do ruger. they make a fine rifle but again i would rather have an older one M77 not mkII.
Yeah remingtons are higher priced i don't like that but i have dealt with customer service before (not because the guns didnt shoot good )and got good treatment. they sent me a new stock for my sendero cause that HS precision stock just chipped when i took the gun apart to clean. not remingtons fault. and SN# didnt match on a model seven for the bolt and reciever. i called and the lady was extremely nice and said please send it back and i did. they determined they had made a mistake in the numbering and corrected the problem. it happens ! to all guns period!!! i have sent brownings, winchesters, savages,rugers,weatherbys(oh god i wouldnt have one!),marlins and a bunch of taurus's back to the factory.
Oh and i love the arguement so many make about the 742 jamming . let's see i am 38 and got the 742 when i was 15 . 23 years! wow i shot it the other day 15 times and not one jam .But then again i must consider that the gun has been meticuliously maintained! ( i have seen many folks guns while working in the gun shop, whewwww it's amazing some don't blow up!) i realize that sometimes mechanical things have problems but i also know that alot of times it's operator error!

SOUTH ARKANSAS REBEL

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm really glad that you Remington owners get so much enjoyment from owning and hunting with a basically dangerous gun <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

The gun isn't dangerous, its the people using the gun. I've used a rem 700 for nearly 20 years and never had it go off while reloading it. Sufice to say that I never thought its a good idea to point the gun at other people while unloading it either. If a person cannot take the care to watch where they are pointing their firearm or have the awareness of whether or not the safety is on or off, they should take up a different sport like golf. BTW there are ALOT of older winchester 94's out there that don't have the crossbolt safety. These rifles are far more dangereous in the hands of the inexperienced than a rem 700 will ever be.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... who's bringing the chips?

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Briman, if they aren't dangerous then why was there a lawsuit settled out of court and the recall on the trigger...Look I will say no more than this on the subject...If people insist on walking around with cartridges in the chamber when carrying one of these so be it. Hopefully you won't be swinging it around and as far as walking thru brush hope the bolt doesn't unlock and open up . I prefer a rifle that locks the bolt as a bare minimum, I am down to one 700 in my safe and i am thinking of either getting rid of it or converting it to a winchester wing safety.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

losthwy I just bought a NEW 70 feather weight with 11lb trigger this is not my idea of a good trigger and as for adjustment it MUST be done by a gunsmith for safty and reliablity.
As to the the 1st question ask I own ruger 77's remington 700's and winchester model 70's for the money Id go ith a Ruger in 30-06 I prefer this because if you do go after elk youll have a little more gun and with the 30-06 you have a very wide range of bullet choices.. but another choice Id look hard at is the Savage kit guns there accurate and A very good value they just need alittle trigger work like most new rifles these days.JMO as for scope the Leupold varx 1 is a very good scope for the price and has a life time warrenty

3DNWV

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Oldelkhunter they only recalled a small number of the 700's not all! you know i saw the cbs special report on the 700. i still would bet the one lady that killed her son pulled the trigger!!!!!i would bet most were operator stupidity! no all!
your last 700 what is it ,details and how much?
All gun manufacturers have been sued so all guns are dangerous!
briman your right 94's are very dangerous. i have a trapper 94. it would be perfect for my 12 y/o to use. but i won't let him cause it has no crossbolt safety and letting the hammer the hammer could be dangerous. he uses a 700 youth in 243. dangerous gun! he has killed two poor deer with it that just happened to be standing in sights. he's going to carry it around saturday ,poor deer!and i even worked on the trigger ,crisp and smooth!

SOUTH ARKANSAS REBEL

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Where have you been Soark figured If I put enough nasty things about remingtons here that you would respond sooner or later. Actually the only one I have left is a Classic in 300 win mag and it was made in 1995 all my others were brought from 1971-1995 or so. I have not bought any new ones because I really hate that plastic security key in the bolt head.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

aside from all of the pouting back and forth with people defending their favorite brands i will get back to your question. i personally have shot all of the brands that you listed, and i bought the ruger m77 .270. i also shoot deer and hogs. i have a 3x9 scope and at 1 inch high at 100 yards, it is dead on at 200. good choice.

RYAN SMITH

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Soarkrebel, I knew this Remington talk would get your feathers ruffled up a tad.I agree the older Remington's are a better made rifle then the newer ones.Let's face it in all makes and models there are going to be good and bad ones.I've had Ruger's that had problems. Ruger corrected them but it still left the factory with these defects.One was a Super Redhawk that the cut outs for the scope rings weren't cut correctly.Ruger agreed there was a problem and replaced the gun after sending it back twice to them... I've had other guns of different makes with defects.Another example was a Ithaca Model 37.The receiver was defective (crooked) and the shotgun would shoot way off to the right..Ithaca replaced the entire gun.The odds are pretty good that you'll get a decent gun but sooner or later one made by Sunkist will slip through..Ruger Redhawk

Support the NRA...Protecting our Gun Rights and Freedoms is everybody's responsibility. Ruger Redhawk A proud NRA Life Member since 1977.

RE: First Rifle - Please Help
 

Oldelkhunter i had a great afternoon . me and my son were shooting off my deck . living in the boonies you can do that. i shot enough i guess the locals couldnt take it so they break out theres and buddy it sounded like a war out here in redneck country. i had been shooting my 308 ,270 and my boys 243. folks go to shooting so i break out the 25 -06 . then for a finale i get the 7 mm stw w/ muzzle break out . now i love that you can feel the wind move!!!!!!!
I am ready for saturday now i just have to figure out what i am hunting with first. i only shot a few i have a few more to try out in the morning.
You get ready to sell that classic let me know. i would love to have one in 300 win mag. and just reading your previous posts i am pretty sure it looks new.got the box?
And the integrated security system is why i won't buy a new one. if and a big IF i did i would change the bolt shroud to remove it. i am not fond of the painted floorplates . you know i was shooting my 270 ,it's a bdl . i have had it 10 years and i bought it used but looked new. it was probably 5 years old then . it is just built better . the blueing looks new and it has been hunted with in all types of weather.
now i would really like a good ruger m77 in 30 -06 . tang safety. my buddys still has one at his pawn shop i have tried to get it off of him for a while but he won't get where i want to pay. nobody wants a 30 -06 . why? it's a great whitetail caliber. after the hunting season i am going to hit him up again.
RUGER have you ever worked on a taurus. a lady bought one and a few weeks after she bought it she returned. the cylinder would not lock up. it was a 85. so i looked at it and the owner said send it to taurus. i asked if i could mess with it and they said yes . i finally figured it out . the cylinder yoke when removed has a spring . that spring puts tension on the cylinder lock to secure the cylinder for firing. stretch the weak little spring and fixed. cheap!
i also messed with a 357 i don't remember the model that would not fire pmc ammo. the thing would shoot umc but not pmc. the only thing i could guess was the pmc's had harder primers and the taurus could not put enough ump to set them off. the guy ended up ordering a smith and wesson. and boy have they changed ! i was and am a old smith guy. all the new ones i ever bought were clean and looked good when you opened them. the one we got was dirty and look like crap . and the price ! no way. i guess i am a ruger man now!!! handguns that is!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>:)

SOUTH ARKANSAS REBEL