renfrowridge

all they teach is one shot one kill I dont think so. They take these young kids and give them a m16 an say shot that way at a 4 foot target. even some of the navy seals only know the weapon they have or use. The ony training I/they get was when I went to sniper school there is where you learn wind drift and bullet drop, and that IS where you learn one shot one kill that is where you learn to crawl into the enamey back pocket and if you miss you are dead. Give the service its do you are train for what you do and that is it.

early

almost all the guy's i work with are VET'S (i never served) most of em are "Namer's"...one guy asked me if thought a 410 shotgun would be good fer HD, then he asked if he had ta fill out any paperwork ta get ammo? a couple are gun guy's and know quite a bit. i think it depends on what they did and how long ago. the guy that asked about a 410 probly hasn't held a gun since i was in diapers.

early

renfrowridge

most guys that came out of Nam and that is me did not want to touch a gun or any kimd of weapon after 18 mount over there and some still dont and I cant blame them on that point . I wont get started on the war over there just to say it was a war that washington did not want to win.

Charley

My number 2 son just graduated from Marine Bootcamp last week, he had a hell of a time qualifying, and came close to washing out completely over marksmanship. Why? His "highly trained, knowledgable" instructors completely missed his cross dominance (left handed, right eyed). He's never had my interests in shooting and weaponry, so he wasn't aware of the problem. He had an excuse, but his so called expert instructors have none, IMO.I couldn't believe in a service brach that prides itself on riflery and individual marksmanship skills the instructors could be so ignorant.

sandilands

I was in the CDN Artillery, shot 105mm howitzers and our rifle is similar to the m-16(called the C-7). I had been shooting since I was young kid. The instructors knew what they were told and that is it. I asked how many grains the bullet was and got no answer..... I wanted to get something at least close to a ballistic table made for this round. They did not know the ballistics of it neither did they know much else. When we got to the range for the first time they would not allw me to touch the sites on my own rifle..... the instructor would come down the line and make adjustments for you. I was horrified that someone that had less knowledge than me was going to 'zero' my weapon. When he came by to 'adjust my weapon I told him how manty clicks I wanted him to move the site and he gave me a look of disdain.... then he humoured me and made the correct adjustments. The rifle started to perform, 2-2.5" groups dead center...... the Sgt. that was making the adjustments never came back..... the Capt did w/ an invitation to shoot on the Regimental team.
In my 'shoot'(exam) I missed putting one on for score and called it b4 the range officer sent back the signal. I was one of only 6 people that passed the shoot w/out having to redo....... one person (can't say man) was given 8 attempts and still couldn't pass, so they changed to shoot to meet her and she finally passed. Scary isn't it.
I the end of therange sessions I had to give the Capt my answer about the shooting team. I told him that when I could get my 5-10 shot groups under 2" (100m) I would get back to him. Due to budget cuts they never had the shooting team that year anyways. Then a WO needed to re-qualify much to his chagrin...... he took my rifle and took the test..... and failed! I was not in his good books for the rest of the time we worked together.
The wife had problems too. She didn't have a shooting background and went off to do her basic training..... after failing the shoot twice she called me.I asked her where her problems were and she told me a little. I told her to have the instructors move the sightsuntil the POI was about 2" high at 100m and get your breathing in order...... then squeeze of a shot. That little556 doesn't kick much and you shouldn't loose the sight picture after a shot is fired..... your sights may hover but as soon as you get it back on squeeze off again(timed testing). She called back that night and told me that she passed just under marksmen.
The thing I learned..... being a good shot can get you out of a hole mess of crappy-details, you know the ones that all the people get that can't shoot, cleaning pots, peeling poatoes and even the real grunt work w/the big guns. I enjoyed my time on the howitzer', hurtling 33lbs of steel at speeds in which you can watch your rounds leaving the barrel and know that it is going to hit a target 10km away w/in 10m of point of aim.
Doesn't the AK shoot .311" bullets and not .308". Ballistically I think the 7.62x39 is b/w a .300 savage and a 30-30...... the bullets I have pulled from surplus ammo are only 125gr.

HighDesertWolf

he must have been army, my friends who are currently serving in the army are quite frankly clueless when it comes to the basics of ballistics. I think maybe the army really doesnt emphasize on this subject. Now my buddies that are Marines its a totally different story they know everything I know if not more when it comes to ballistics. Its nice to learn new stuff from my Marine buddies. But its twice as nice to teach my army buddies a little bit about ballistics.

ShatoDavis

I think the nail was hit on the head when someone earlier said that the service man is taught enough ballistics and terminal performance to be effective with the weapon they are issued. I live near an army base, a lot of my friends are military, My dad served.....But, the average GI knows how to shoot, disasemble, clean, and reassemble a M16. Thats the extent of their knowledge of guns. I in no way intend that as criticism, its just a fact.

Lets not kid ourselves, the majority of so called hunters have less knowledge than that. I've been around hunting and hunters my whole live and most of their knowledge is based on supersition and hearsay: "old jim down at the coffe shop said that the 270 wasn't worth a darn. He said to stick with a 30-06." How many folks do we know that would say something like that. I once had a "hunter" explain to me that a 308 was BIGGER than a 300 because the number was bigger. How many of us know of someone who has went hunting with their gun only "bore sighted".

MinnFinn

Maybe it's different for those with advanced training in infantry and special forces. In basic over 30 years ago, we learned what we needed to know just about those weapons we were training to use, take done and reassemble. That was primarily M-16 .223 and .30 cal. machine gun. Especially in basic they are not going to spend a lot of time and money training everyone of whom only a fraction will need to know more indepth on a variety of military weapons and calibers.

I see no reason to train soldiers or Marines on non-military weapons such as that you mentioned. Concentrate on what they need to know and learn that inside and out.

Aside from military training some people have someone to teach them about ballistics, hunting techniques, life,etc. There are a whole lot of the rest of us who are leftto our own tolearn all that we need to.

So, if someone taught you as a young person, be thankful, not smug (which I picked up a little in what you wrote). It's not a young guy's or gal's fault when some dads who should be teaching such things are busy with everything else but. You name it: golfing, drinking, running around, meeting with the guys, poker, but forgetting their most important role, being a dad. Do you hear me? I hope so.

You'll only get one chance to raise you kids and teach them what you think is important about ballisticsand a whole lot more important things in life. Because once their grown they won't come looking to spend time with you, if you didn't spend time with them when they were young.

wayomic

You've got that right. Taught only enough to get the job done, why do more if all that's needed is "shoot at them over there". It's not that they aren't taught their job, and taught well, but the job skills are different to what is needed for a hunter or a "sharpshooter".

Itdoes seem to vary by service though. My army friends know that much and that's it, my Marine friends know more than that. My father was military but he was on the shooting team so my brother and I got a bit of an education growing up.My brother served but Ididn't. When he went in, the comment he got off of one of the assistant DIs was basically "you must be a hunter or a farm boy" because he knew something about shooting, etc. And he never got into it much until recently, I was the one going to Matches with our father and later shooting Service Rifle with him.

I've actually had one guy I know ask tell me his .223 was a way better round than the 7x57 I shoot for fun. After all, "it may be a old military rifle, but it's old! Itwas like made a hundred years ago". Well, the rifle isn't THAT old, (1936 Spanish Mauser). OK,yes he is close withthe round, but he had no clue as to what his performance and terminal balistic were compared. He just knew enough to "point and shoot". (andhappens toalso be know for being one of those "4-5 shots at anything to hit it" guys)

PAhunter86

When I was in boot camp at Parris Island, about 5 or 6 months ago, we learned really well how to shoot, but the PMI's (primary marksmanship instructors) don't go heavily into ballistics. They mainly focus on getting in a good shooting position (standing, kneeling and prone) and on proper sight alignment. You learn how to adjust for windage, and different ranges. We shoot from 200, 300 and 500 yards. I honestly don't remember talking much about ballisitics, but they sure are good at teaching how to put a 5.56 round at center mass from 500 yards away. I guess they don't really need to go into ballistics much. I don't know much about the Marine's scout sniper school, but I'd be willing to bet those guys learn a lot about ballistics.

Also, at the school of infantry (on the basic level) you don't really learn about ballistics either. I'm not an 0311 (rifleman) I'm an 0351 (blow stuff up) but I don't the 11's would have learned anything about ballistics. There are lots of advanced courses, so who knows.