Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

I'm looking to purchase a dedicated Elk / Moose rifle and want to get the most bang for my buck so to speak. I regularly shoot a Rem 870 turkey gun with 2oz 3" mags with no problem and am wondering which rifle calibers compare to it recoil wise? I've had my shoulder rebuilt once already so don't want to get recoil ridiculous but I do want a capable rifle out to around 400 yards. I'm thinking 340 Weatherby or 338 RUM. All opinions welcome and thanks for the info!!

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Recoil is substancial with the 340wby and the 338ultramag.In my opinion more than from using 3" loads in my 870.If recoil is a concern,the 338win mag would be a better choice.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Move down the scale of legal elkcalibers until you find one that has suitable recoil.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Actual foot pounds wise your 870 with 2oz turkey loads will kick harder than either the RUM or the Wby mag. About 15+- foot pounds more which is equivalet to about a 1oz trap load out of the same 870.

Felt recoil however is different. The shotgun is not as sharp or quick a kick as the RUM or Wby will be. Shotguns tend to shove rather than punch against your shoulder.

But on the other hand the stock design of a center fire rifle lends itself to less felt recoil than a shotgun stock does.


Bottom line is if you are comfortable shooting a 2oz turkey load sitting on the ground leaning against a tree then you should have zero problems with either of the two cartridges you listed.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Those two (338RUM or 340Wby) would both make great and capable (in spades) elk rifle. See if you can shoot them for real before buying. If you need a little more recoil ;)the consider the 375HH; a little less then the 338WinMag.
[Knowing what other rifle chamberings you already own would help answer the question better.]

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Nothing less than a 416 Rem Mag will work for elk.....:D

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Both calibers are going to recoil about the same; it's all going to come down to which rifle fits you better. Good luck.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

DD. Better go Rigby, the Rem version is a little weak.;)It seems that the 378 Weatherby does not get much attention here. Flat shooting and much friskier than the 375 H&H.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

whats wrong with a 30.06 and a good recoil pad.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

At the risk of be flamed on this forum, if recoil really is an issue (which it sounds as though it is), send your rifle out and have a brake installed. look at http://www.muzzlebrake.com/index.htmlfor some quality work at good prices. Kevin did my 300 RUM and tamed it to about that of a270 or less. This would give you the caliber you want and fix your recoil problem. Noise level goes up for those around you, but they sure work.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Noise increases tremendously for the shooter as well.Even a single shot without hearing protection will often cause a persons ears to ring for hours.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

The .577 T-Rex ought to do the job. Going by Newton's law, it ought to knock elk and moose flat since it knocks the shooter flat on the other end.:D

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

:D. Thats the in thing.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

From my perspective trying to simulate to a shotgun is fruitless. First off different report, second fit, style and weight have the most impact in felt recoil and 3rd I don't shoot my shotgun nearly as much as any CF. I don't turkey hunt but how many range shots would you say you shootwith the pop stick& turkey loads? How many do you plan to shoot with the new rifle? In the field I don't remember a single belt I have taken, however I do recall feeling some aftermaths with improper positioning of the firearm be it shotgun or CF. But when it comes to my rebuilt shoulderI must be able to sit down and plink out a range session without dismay with a hunting rig. If it goes over this envelope I have no need for that piece of equipment in my cabinet. For me a perfect balance would be in the 338 wm area in terms of meeting my own criteria, not required but certainly a great elk/moose cartridge.

BTWI use the 7mm rem mag, no problems anchoring elk or moose with single shots. Then again our gamemust be of thewimp variety up here b/c I have heard my choice of cartridges is even inferior for deer as of late.[8D]

I am of the opinion it is only useful if you can handle it...a poor shot is going to result in headaches no matter how loud the bang. Only you can determine this factor my suggest is try shooting some different rifles in yoursimulated range session to see what you can comfortably handle. I wouldn't consider a brake as asolutionto tame your reaction to the pin falling. Having to plug my ears would drive me bonkers while hunting and that is my underlying reason for selecting equipment. Enhancement devices drive me equally bonkers in the often wind swept prairie's I call my stomping grounds. Shooting without ear protection..NOWAY. I know of more than one guy who has lost hearing after a single blast from a braked rifle. I already have bummed shoulder no need to add to the list and I ain't getting any younger so who knows what may come up down the dusty trail.

Best of luck

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Well spoken.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Thanks for all of the excellent suggestions and comments, they're very much appreciated. I am by no means shy of recoil and have never had a problem with flinching. My current battery consists of a 270, 280, 06, 7mm Rem mag, 7mm-08, 257 Weatherby and a 45/70 Guide Gun with several milsurps thrown in as well. I realize that all of these except for maybe the 257 (although it has been done) qualify as Elk medicine, and rightfully so; but my tendencies run toward not just bringing an adequate rifle for most situations, instead bring the most you can accurately shoot in all situations - especially if your paying lots of hard earned money for the hunt! I realize that the shotgun does not offer the best comparison for a rifle but it's the hardest kicker I have, but I haven't fired anything heavier than Winchester 300's in the 45/70. I guess I should just buy or load some heavy hitters for the GG and try them - If I can handle those then the sky's the limit right? As for brakes - no thanks, been there done that and can't stand the blast.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

I wonder how many sets of eardrums have been rendered junk from unknowing users and innocents bystanders from muzzle breaks?

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

What did you say DD!!!???:D

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

ROFL. For those that have had shoulder surgeries, I would just say try before you buy, and shoot from the standing position. I am not a fan of lightweight magnum rifles. I fired a .338 Win Mag alot both before and after shoulder surgery and I did just fine. But I always limited bench shooting with it. I am at the age where I will forgoe the 416 Rigby unless pachyderms threaten my town. Not likely.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Well obviously your no stranger to rifle.Please excuse my general reply, however info was..lacking. Certainly understand your point of view and personally think the 338wm would fit in nicely to your current selection as dedicated elk taker. Although nothing wrong with the wby or RUM if you are prepared to handle a little more boot and costs to operate these powder burners.

Good luck in your decision.

Doe Dumper,I too wonder this. It seems very little education is around with brakes and noise increase for the average hunter. Anybody who has sat next to one at the range will know the difference but for a lot of hunters a box of shells is a few season supply.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Just a guess here.......ok?

about 75% of those shooting a 30-06 can shoot it well.....
about 60% of those shooting a 300 magnum can shoot it well
about 40% of those that shoot a 338 Win mag can shoot it well
about 25% of those that shoot a .338 RUM can shoot it well
about 10% of those that can't shoot their rifle well will admit it.

If you can move to the 10% group you have it made!!!!!

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

The rifle I am seriously considering is the Rem 700XCR. There straight stock fits me very well and I like what i've read about this rifle. It's offered in both 338 WM and RUM, a tough decision indeed. I don't think I will spend the extra for a MkV Weatherby right now. I love my Vanguard MOA but I'm not convinced that the MkV is worth the extra bucks especially when there are other rifles and cartridges that meet or exceed it's performance for less. What do you think about getting the RUM and starting out with reduced loads and working up? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the 338 WM but the ballistics of the RUM, especially with 250 grainers is hard to ignore and probably worth the extra effort in learning to shoot well IMHO.Thanks again for all the advice!

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

After spending at least 50 days per year at the range,I would estimate your figures to be very optimistic.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Sure, it is the Internet, wild arse guessing is always welcome.

So I guess based on that, our soldiersin Viet Nam(.223)were absolutely by far and away capable of shooting circles around the boys that won WWII (30-06)? [A portionof whom were 16-17.]

One thing about soldiers though, at least they have some training.... more than you can say for the majority of hunters --- school of hard knocks not withstanding.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

I use a .300 win mag, and so did most of the guides in the elk camp. The other guides all used 7mm mag (except 1 who used a 280 rem with 140 grain corelokt).
I don't know how your finances are but weatherby calibers seem to be twice as much or more than standard calibers. Not a prob if you reload, but I think a box of factory 340 W-Mag would be 60-80 bucks. I think the rem ultra short mags are pretty pricey too. The old standby 338 win is reasonable and effective, and I hate shooting it. I have arthritis in my shoulders and I am only 43!!! Actually if I were firing at game, I wouldn't notice but there is the bi yearly sight in and practice.
I just fail to see how a .300 win mag with 180 grain nosler portitions can be beat. I have a friend who swears by the new 325 wsn.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

"Elk Cartridge Preference Poll" over at Big Game Hunting Forum of this site.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

What about a 30 378 WBY Accumark. Comes with brake standard. Shoots much easier than the WBY 340. Very accurate, and as far as being loud, when your at the range you have hearing protection, and in the woods you don't notice a shot or two. I have never had a problem with it. I've shot elk with it from 30 yrds to 300 and never had to follow one. And really, again, for that much power recoil is minimal.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Actually a single shot with a braked riflewithout hearing protection can cause permanent hearing loss that is significant enough to be measured.A member of our club fired a single shot with a braked300winmag and his ears rang for several hours.His next scheduled hearing test showed a measureable hearing loss that is still present.Before that incident,he had suffered no measurable hearing loss in over 20 years of testing.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Yeah Stubble thats the scary part....a "shot or two" os all it takes...people dont reallize this though.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

There must be some data out their about noise levels w/wo brake. You can remove the brake for hunting situations also. I have never experienced ringing ears post shooting my gun wo protection.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

That is because most people do not undergo regular hearing tests.I work in a refinery and we must undergo a hearing test every two years.Many people are surprised to find out that they have suffered hearing loss.On the other hand,the person that I spoke of in my earlier post suspected it immediately after his ears stopped ringing,and he was correct.I have owned a brake equipped rifle myself,and I did discover another fact in the short time that I owned it.The point of impact was not the same with the brake installed,so I still had to remove the brake to sight the rifle in.That being the case,I no longer own any brake equipped rifles.I shoot two 300 ultramags and don't finda brake necessary.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Quoted from the chuckhawks website

If the advantage of muzzle brakes is reduced recoil, the disadvantage is increased muzzle blast. As always, in the real world, there is no free lunch. The increase in muzzle blast with these devices can be literally deafening, even for shooters wearing hearing protection.
The muzzle blast from a powerful muzzle brake equipped rifle is so loud that even with hearing protection the shooter risks suffering some permanent hearing damage after a few shots. Earmuff type hearing protectors typically reduce noise by about 25 dB. A muzzle brake equipped magnum rifle (like a .300 or .338 Magnum) produces a sound pressure level (spl) in the 130-dB range, according to reports I have read. Thus the spl inside the hearing protector is in excess of 100 dB, a potentially damaging level.
For a hunter in the field, shooting without ear protection, the muzzle blast from a muzzle brake is immediately deafening. Nearly complete temporary deafness usually lasts from about a minute to several minutes after firing a powerful magnum rifle equipped with a muzzle brake. Later almost all of the shooter's hearing returns, but a certain amount is permanently lost, and the losses are cumulative.

From the link posted below

http://guns.connect.fi/rs/mounting.html

Muzzle brake effect: Reflex Suppressor is a highly efficient muzzle brake, due to abrupt reflection or blowback of muzzle blast in the first expansion chamber. The threading for a suppressor also serves for mounting a separate muzzle brake. Attention! The devices serving only as muzzle brakes are not recommended, as they increase essentially the shooter's noise level! The peak noise level to shooter may go up from abt. 157 dB to up to abt.167 dB with a .308 Win rifle if equipped with a muzzle brake. Such a noise level can cause permanent damage to unprotected hearing even with single shots!

From the link below

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA




.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel
155.5dB

.243 in 22" barrel
155.9dB

.30-30 in 20" barrel
156.0dB

7mm Magnum in 20" barrel
157.5dB

.308 in 24" barrel
156.2dB

.30-06 in 24" barrel
158.5dB

.30-06 in 18 _" barrel
163.2dB

.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake
170 dB
Krammer adds that sound pressure levels for the various pistols and ammunition tested yielded an average mean of 157.5 dB, which is greater than those previously shown for shotgun and rifle noise levels. There was also a greater range, from 152.4dB to 164.5dB, representing 12 dB difference, or more than 10 time as much acoustic energy for the top end of the pistol spectrum. It should be noticed that this figure of 164.5 dB approaches the practical limit of impulse noise measurement capability inherent in most modern sound level meters.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

This mirrors my experience.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

If someone close to me at the range starts firing a big rifle with a Muzzle Brake, I just pack up and leave. It huirts my ears even with good ear protection. I already can't hear my wife when she speaks.;)

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Is that a pro or a con for muzzle brakes?:D

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Thats a tough question.:DThe up side would be that after 38 years I have probably heard it all before.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Galngbeard, with all due respect to the others on the board, who have a great deal of expertise, I was in a similar position as you not too long ago.

Actually, my situation was simply that I wanted a "more than 30 caliber" rifle. My preference was a 338 Win Mag, or a 35 Whelen - and then my local gun dealer came up with this 338 RUM for about $150-200 less than normal retail. Well, I offerred him $50.00 less than he was asking - and he said yes - so, Iown one.

I struggled with what is being posted - the 338 RUM packs a whallop, in the books at least - I had never shot one. I really just did not want to put a brake on it due to the noise. At the same time, I figured if I'm going to shoot a big bore gun, lets push some lead. I purchased 275 grainbullets.

I researched proper technique to reduce felt recoil, and really planned out a bunch to educate myself before I ever shot the gun. I was determined to at least shoot it before putting on a brake, and became concerned I would probably just sell it if I could not shoot it well. I looked at brakes you could remove, considered them before even shooting the gun.

I even watchedscary video's of some massive calibers, pounding on the shooter, and guns falling to the ground the recoil was so bad.

Well, when I finally shot the gun - it wasn't that bad.

I think I got myself all worked up, and it just was not that big of a deal. I still would not spend an afternoon shooting 100 rounds from it, but I was honestly wishing I had brought more test loads when I shot the last, and 12th round in my first range visit.

I won't be putting a brake on my gun, I don't feel it is neccessary. I still would have preferred a 338 Win Mag, or a 35 Whelan. After shooting the 338 RUM, I know this will not be the last "more than 30 caliber" gun I own. I love it!

Only you can decide, most do not like the 338 RUM. I like it. Mine is in a Left hand Rem 700 LSS BDL. I would have preferred a straight stock like the Ruger 77 if I had a choice, but like I said, mine was a meeting of a gun shop owner who wanted to clear his inventory of a left hand 338 RUM, and my intent to buy a larger bore rifle, so I have what I have.

I've been back to the range with it several times now. Each time is enjoyable. I've got about 65 rounds through it, and have built up loads for a couple different bullets. I'm not completely satisfied with my handloads, a change in powder may be what is needed. However, the gun is like most in my cabinet, more accurate than I, and capable of a clean kill.

I wouldn't suggest a reduced load with the oversized case. Just load it like it's gonna get used, and see what it's like.

IMO.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

It might be just me but I seem to get less felt recoil from the Remington stocked rifles than I do the Rugers when both are chambered in the same cartridge. Maybe the Remingtons just fit me better. I have had both Brands of rifles in 300 and 338 Win Mag.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

Seems the original poster said he had both an 06 and a 7mm rem mag but wants to step up on an elk/moose rifle. Don't have huntable elk here but have hunted moose for a long time and used a .338 win mag for many years with great results, have since stepped down to a 7mm rem mag and don't miss the big gun at all. If I had a 7mm mag I would skip over the .300 right to the ,338 if the recoil was not an issue. A muzzle brake is not a good solution, been there done that have diminished hearing to back that up. One thing to consider is what kind of range are you taking shots at? If your shots are all at 300 yds or less you might also want to consider a .350 rem mag or .35 whelen. Their performance on heavy game far outweigh the paper ballistics.

RE: Elk Rifle & Recoil
 

I, too,find the Ruger's to have a bunch more recoil than Remington's or Weatherby's. Got to be the stock design. The new Remington SPS's are particularly soft recoiling with the sythetic stock and the R3 recoil pad. Weatherby Fibermark's have always been pretty soft kicking as well. Worst kicking gun on the planet? The Ruger 77 Stainless all weather with that old black plastic stock that has the cut-outs in the buttstock. A .270 will give you a bruise. A .338 will give you flinch that will last a year or more. :(