Ed, the main thing I have been saying here is the fact that the guns you are making far exceed the power and range restrictions that were imposed upon this state. It's quite simple. And the Wardens around here, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, flies like a duck THEN IT's A TURKEY! 1 out of 10 actually know what the hell they are doing and have a semblance of common sense. ANY chance they even THINK they can make a nickle they break out the citation pad. They even came onto MY OWN PROPERTY once when I was working on one of my rifles at the range and try to cite me for an "Illegal Range" which I happily told them if they weren't off my property within 10 seconds they would be arrested and probably have several less teeth. They had absolutely no right to be on my property, no one had called in to report excess noise (since the neighbors use my range when they want to) nor for anything else. They just thought they could bully someone. I don't bully easily :patriot: . Just stuff like that happens ALL THE TIME around here so why would anyone want to take the chance with one of those firearms?

I take particular exception to this part - mostly because I've been insulted by Chicago's choice to call itself "the heart of the Midwest" for generations.

Knowing you're in MI - you're neither "mid" nor "west".

Most of our states that actually ARE in the Midwest have common sense built into their gun and hunting laws.

If the Mississippi River counts as "the West," like it did 200yrs ago, and the "midwest" and "west" included Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, etc, then sure, there are a lot of foolish things going on.

Out here in the REAL Midwest - we're doin just fine.

Take it however you want! You are turning into one argumentative dude on this thread and now choose to tell us your version of what states are classified as to where, LOL! You took this whole thread off on a tangent when you brought the Feds and BATFE into what was being discussed here as a state law or regulation for hunting purposes and nothing more than that. Please stay with you rifle and ballistics knowledge, as I know what states are classified as midwest. Here is a map of what is considered the midwest states. Whether you like how they are classified is beside the point of how they actually are! :violin:

Well schitt - sometimes I hate being right. I came back to this thread just now because I thought about after that post that I had better go back and put it "I LIGHT HEARTEDLY take offense..." because I was worried someone would take me too literally.

Too late I guess! Ya beat me to it before I could edit my post. I was ATTEMPTING TO, and blatantly failed to, bring a bit of humor back to this thread, which has gotten more traffic in the last month than in about a decade of Ed's posts.

It really has always seemed silly to me that we haven't redrawn our geographical defining lines in ~200yrs. Whether geographically, demographically, industrially, or economically, the lines showing Chicago as the heart of the Midwest, or St. Louis as the Gateway to the West just don't make sense, so I've always thought - as someone that lives mid-central to the U.S. geographically - that it just doesn't make sense that somewhere east of center could be the gateway to the west, or somewhere else east of center could be the heart of the Midwest. It's just silly.

We've bought 20+ more states, tripled, maybe quadrupled, the area of our country, moved our capital, crossed another mountain range and found the farthest ocean... But we still divide the U.S. by the Mississippi!!

It'd be a lot funnier if I was a comedian instead of an engineer. Maybe that's my problem.

Now you're getting smart, as who really cares anyway, LOL! This was the little ditty that chapped my buns: "included Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, etc, then sure, there are a lot of foolish things going on" since it didn't seen to be written to come across as funny.

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.



Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.




And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed

Cool stuff as always Ed, I used to keep up with your thread on the 12ga from Hell over at The Firing Line.

Here is picture of 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.



Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.



We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny,. if you need long range work.





The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs, etc, Not really, just use one for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around