Handgun stopping power
 

I used to keep up on all of this stuff but am not familar with the new loads for defense. What is the best rated load for the 9MM, and 40 S&W?

I am trying to taper back a bit on my guns as I am sort of burned out on reloading for 12-16 calibers like I do now. I am considering trading my 9MM and 45 for a 40 S&W. I know that the 40 has really caught on with law enforcement and I wondered what loads are best for defense.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

My personal preference is the Federal Hydrashok. But I am looking into the new efmj (expanding full metal jacket)rounds. They are supposed to be great stoppers, with no chance of the hollow point clogging with material. Good luck.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Personally I carry Federal 180 grain hydra shocks in my 40. I recently fired one into some wet shreaded newspaper from 10 feet to see how they expanded and penetrated.

The recovered bullet was nearly a picture perfect mushroom. It was a little more expanded on one side than the other but I atribute this to firing at a bit of an angle into the paper. Penetration was about 20 inches.

I also tested the 155 grain hydra shock and 135 grain power balls. While they both had excelent expansion both shed their jackets.

I have not tested the Remington Golden sabers yet but they are suppose to be one of the best defensive bullets as well.


BTW recoil is very manageable. My 11 year old daughter has no problem controling my XD compact. While she can't put 13 down range in rapid succession she loves to shoot it.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

JB I wouldn't get rid of the 45 to get a 40 just because you see so many carried by those with badges. Most law enforcement who carry 9s or 40s do so because they are required to by policy. Nearly too the man, the gents I know well in the military and tact squad law officers MUCH prefer the superior stopping power of the 45 vs either of the other two. In manners of gun, caliber and defensive bullets I take the recommendations from those who are shot at for a living!!!

Regardless of caliber, the two most preferred bullets I have seen by those same buddies are the Golden Saber from Remington and the Federal Hydra Shock.

My 1911 is full of Hydras, ;)
RA

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

James I am sure you are probably aware but I will post this for those that aren't.

You mentioned reloading for 12 different calibers and defensive ammo in the same thread and reading RA's post I thought someone may benefit from this little bit of info.

If you want to avoid extra legal action against you should you have to shoot a person to defend your life do not shoot them with reloaded ammunition. Use only factory loaded ammunition and if you can, use what your local and state police use to defend their own lives.

If it passes police testing and is aproved for their use then this will greatly benefit you in court if you used the same ammunition.

In other words............CYA........... cover your a$$.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Good advice. I have read that before and was told the same by a cousin who was a county mounty.

I currently carry Hydrashocks in my 9mm and Gold Dots in My 45 ACP. I have also been looking at the 45GAP (Glock).

RA. I do love the 45 and have always had one of some kind. I have a Ruger right now which shoots well and never malfunctions. So far anyway. I have owned four 1911's all but one were build up SP Armaries. I sterted with a Auto Ord which worked great as well after I put in a SA barrel and had the slide tightened. I like the Kimbers but they are just to much money for a retired guy.;)

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

I'm calling BS on this one unless you can come up with a case where someone used handloads for self defense and was prosecuted for using 'extra deadly handloads.' This falls under the category or internet gun urban legend.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Briman do you honestly believe that? You should check around on some actual cases taken too court and see just what kind of crap cheesy lawyers will pull out of their butts just to try and get a jury on their side. If ammo didn't matter why did the whole "Black Talon" and "Cop killer" episodes happen in the first place? The cases I have looked into where someone actually used deadly force (by lawful conceal carriers defending themselves from thugs) has overwhelmingly resulted in some courtcase of somesort. The cost too the person defending their own life is typically at a MINIMUM of $10k, with many costing over twice that if the thugs family wishes to sue for rights violations. PC and weak DAs are the culprit here. This crap shouldn't even make it to trial, but that doesn't make .02c difference in todays world. Bottom line, you drawdown on someone and cut loose a round you ARE going to court if you live in most cities with a population over 50k. If you shoot someone of another race, then BANK ON IT and plan on spending a night or two in jail... and all in the name of "self defense".

Sadly in todays courtroom, logic is left in the parking lot. Whether it's boosheut or not, lawyers are gonna throw any bait they think they can catch a fish with!
RA

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Blissninny gun banner got their collective soiled panties in a knot over the name and found a good 'evil' name they could pounce on. Winchester simply changed the name of Black talons to Rangers and still sells them. There are even better bullets out there now than the Black Talons.

Once again, RA, can you point to a case where handloaded ammunition led to a conviction of a shooter where factory ammunition might not have?

Didn't think so.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Another way to look at it is that it might be better to be sued in civil court by the emotional and irrational surviving family forthe loss of intangibles from the loss of their wayward son 'who fell into the wrong crowd' than to be sued by a thug themselves and have to pay out lifelong medical bills for his condition.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

I forget the guys name but he is a gun writer and acts as a expert witness in cases just like the ones we are talking about. He claims that it is important to use factory ammo and even better, use what law enfircement uses. Its better to not give the RAMBO image or the idea that factory ammo just does not have enogh power for you. I read this long before I ever heard of the internet. Jan Liberel or something like that is the writer/witnsee I was thinking about. I have also heard the same thing on Evan Marshalls site.

I would rather be safe than sorry and always carry factory ammo in my carry guns. Todays factory ammo is hard to beat for performance and dependability. Why take a chance. It the PC people that may be on your jury that this might matter to.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Briman, No I am not going to spend the time looking for court cases where this type of thing was used against the defendant in order to apese you "internet urban legend" comment.

A person using reloads may or may not loose the case against them. That's not for me to decide. What I am guaranteeing you is that if you should shoot someone with reloaded ammo and the DA finds out that it is loaded to higher speeds or there are any other factors about it that would give you a suposed "killer" look to a jury they WILL use it against you. You may win or you may loose but.......... you will spend extra time and money defending yourself against this kind of BS.

I honestly don't care one way or the other if you take the advice or not but for those here that aren't so closed minded to think this won't matter you may want to heed it.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

His name is Mas Ayoob. He is very well respected and knowledgeable but his comment on reloaded ammunition is very controversial. Even he himself hasn't been involved in a case or could cite a case about using reloaded ammunition for self defense.


That's because you could look until the cows come home and never find such a case, because it doesn't exist.

Lets make an analogy here. Man No1 keeps a Louisville slugger under his bed for home defense, he ends up using it one night to defend his family and ends up killing a bad guy.

Man No2 keeps a 2 1/2' long piece of shovel handle under his bed for self defense, he doesn't have any use for a baseball bat and doesn't want to spend extra for something that he can make from junk in his barn. He uses said shovel handle to kill a home invader in defense of his family.

Now is Man no2 going to have any more legal trouble than man no1 simply because he made a homemade weapon?

In the act of self defense, it really doesn't matter what tool you use so long as the amount of force you use is pertinent to the threat.

The only reason why I could see the advantage of store bought ammunition is reliability, not liability. There are a lot of bubbas with minimal reloading knowledgeout there with progressive machines turning out squibs and other bad things.

I honestly think that there are a lot of people out there who are more afraid to be sued than to be killed in a robbery. I find that sad.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Bri you are already using flawed philsophy my friend. You are assuming common sense and fairness in a court of law. If a crackheads family hauls you into court for civil rights violation and the jury is stacked against you (you know what I mean) then you can take your "right" and throw it out the window. The lawyers know it makes NO difference but that doesn't matter, all they have to do is convince 12 Geraldo watchers that you are a bloodthirsty, gun toting racist who was looking for a victim disguised as a criminal.TheJohnny Cochran is gonna use ANYTHING he can to paint you in a badlight.Whether they know a hollowpoint from a handload is of NO concern whatsoever too the subject!

More afraid of being sued than robbed? DAMN RIGHT I AM!!! That is where the libbies know they stand the greatest chance of harming us,
RA

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Its kind ofamusing how a thread discussing which caliber has the best'stopping power' and which loads will stop a man best has morphed into a thread about worrying about how prosecutors, jurists with room temperature IQs, or trial lawyers might take offense to how a person who makes deadly ninja crackhead blasting ammo in his garage. [8D]

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

I'm actually way beyond worrying about handloaded ammunition. As a hobby, I shoot IPSC which involves shooting cardboard 'bad guys' for fun. I also shoot service rifle, which to an unknowledgeable observer, might look like a militia event and we all know that militias are made up of racist neonazi antigovernment conspirators.:eek: A jury of 'special people' would have a field day with me long before the handloaded bullet issue came up.


I have much bigger things to worry and fret about like being attacked by sharks, becoming infected with flesh eating bacteria, or getting hit by a meteor.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Yep!, a few personal friends of mine are the badge carrying type, lucky for them they get to carry what ever they want no dept policy against caliber choice. both of them carry 45's, one of them carries the glock 21 the other carries a kimber custom II 1911. And if you ask either one of them why they prefer the 45, they will more then likely say the larger diameter and heavier mass of the bullet makes a bigger hole and will also have more drag through the flesh and tissue thus dispensing more KE which will have a better chance of disrupting the nervous system which leads to stopping the perp more quickly. My personal choice is also a 45 acp, with a little influence from my buddies I prefer the winchester supreme 230 grain SXT cartridge which happens to be the same cartridges both of my buddies use.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

believe what ever you want, but from an incident that involved a close friends cousin where the cousin had used a firearm loaded with reloads in a defensive situation. In court there were no criminal charges filed against him but later in civil court he was slammed hard by the legal eagles and the family of the burglur he killed. he's now paying restitution to the family in the sum of over 500 grand. His attourney said only if hed used factory ammunition the judge would have more then likely ruled in his favor. the case against him was based on the idea that he reloaded his ammo extra hot with the intent of causing extreme damage to whom ever he shot. bunch of BS if you ask me but all it takes is one liberal judge and its all over for you. The judge more then likely knew next to nothing about ammo and handloads altogether and made his decision based on the fact that cops use factory ammo so ifs its good enough for them then it should be plenty good for a civilian.

Besides if you have handloaded nearly asmuch handgun ammo as i have you would deffinately realize that factory ammo is alot more reliable then reloads. I think if my life depended on it reliability would be the biggest factor in my choice of ammo.

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BLahahhahaha!!! thats kinda funny, gotta hand it to ya you have a heck of a sense of humor.

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This post didn't go quite the way I thought it would. I figured this would turn out to be a 40 cal bashing post. I've heard a lot of bad stuff about them.

Tom

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

theres nothing wrong really with the 40 s&w other than it tends to have a bit more muzzle flip then a 45 acp and from experience its seems to be a bit finiky when handloading especially when the brass was shot in a glock before handloading it id run into alot of split cases at the base not my idea of a good time. I like my 40 its great for plinking but not my choice for personal defense thats what i have my 45's for.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

Home, home on the range
where the 9's and 45's play
seldomis heard
a discouraging word
about 40'sabilityin case ofgunplay.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

The .40S&W is quite a capable cartridge. I don't think that any one handgun caliber or bullet is perfect, but it's definitely at the top of the list of widely available choices.

I use 180 gr. Hydra Shoks in my carry pistol. I've never had to use it in self-defense, thankfully, so I rely on LEO experience andballistics studies (primarily from the FBI and affiliates) for information. Myopinion ofthe Hydra Shoks has always been good. The muzzle flash is fairly good in low light, it feeds perfectly, and it shoots more accurately from the bench than I'm capable of unsupported.

One problem I've heard about on more than one occasionis the tendency of theHP cavity to clog, particularly when fired through heavy (i.e. leather) clothing or multiple layers. This is something to consider very seriously, especially during the winter months.

My preferences in terms of performance are: 1) shot placement; 2) penetration; and 3) expansion. For this reason I would prefer the Hydra Shoks even against a heavily clothed adversary because of its penetration capability.

So that's one man's opinion. Good luck out there, and stay safe!

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

.40S&W is my favorite and has been for a couple years now.

I use 155 grain Hydras when I carry. At all ranges under 50 yards, its going faster and has more energy than the 165 and 180 grains. On the opposite side, you can argue that the heavier bullet will be harder to deflect and might get thru thicker garments better, but Ive shot telephone books, milk jugs, you name it, with all 3 weights, and I like what the 155 does. Not to mention my Sig loves them.

I have recently fallen inlove 165 grain Golden Sabers from Remington. Actually, after I shoot the rest of these Hydras, Im going to Sabers full time. Slightly more potent than Federals Hydras, and from hands on experience from people who have used both, the Sabers are more reliable when it comes to penetration and proper mushrooming.

I'll run more tests on them when I get a few boxes :)

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

In my 9MM Ruger I have been carrying the Federal 135 grain Hydrashocks. Any opinions on these loads? I have not chronographed them yet.

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I shoot the 180gr Rem Golden Sabors and love them. Compared to other loads, they are cheaper here. Box of 25 is 9.99. Other loads for a box of 25 run anywhere from $12-$20.

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I'm not sure whome to reply to but I 've herd for many years to only use factory ammo for defenseive shooting.It's not such a big deal to load your gun with hydro shocks or something similar. But you must fire enough of your chosen ammo thru your defensive gun to know it functions perfectly. my thinking is with the quality of premium defensive ammo as high as it is ,why whould you take any chances with a handload anyway. I'm not saying their's anything wrong with your handloaded ammo, I seldom ever have a problem with mine. But my sister is a lawyer and talking with her I've come to understand theirs no need taking chances that are preventable. Practice or compete all you want with your reloads, even hunt with them, but don't shoot bad guys with them, it makes no sense!

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

I have heard that too fornra, and used to practice that, but I have had many misfires from factory too. At our range, the range officer keeps a whole coffee can full of misfires from factory ammo. Pretty filled up. So I have my handloads. If I ever am unfortatel enough to have to protect myself, I will have more problems than worrying about my handloads.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

So Far. I have never had a factory round fail in any centerfire rifle or handgun. I have had misfires with rimfire though. I carry only factory loads for defense. Makes sense to me with the legal factors involved.

As a civilian I have never had to fire in self defense but have on occassion stopped an ugly incident by showing a handgun. I also helped a guy who was stalking my daughter set a new one block speed record by racking the slide on a 1911.

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James B if he'd been stalking my daughter ,she would have the racked the slide on her springfield 45 and shot him in the a--. Pop wouldn't have to do nothing but laugh!

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She was walking home from work and they were not allowed to take guns to the work place. She has a carry permit and three handguns. The 45 is to big for her hands but she has a 380 and a couple nine's.

RE: Handgun stopping power
 

If you are looking for a personal defense round choose one that will expend all its energy on the target or fragment on impact. The last thing you need is a bullet passing through the target and hitting a bystander. Second, if you are at the point where you must use your weapon to defend yourself, make sure your target is down, thats down permanently, or don't pull your firearm.