Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I've been reading a ton of posts here and really enjoy gettin info from everyone.
I've noticed that when many of you post about what bullets you use they are pretty heavy for the calibers they're in. Ex.. a 165 or 180 in a 308 or 30-06. I dont understand why you use such a heavy bullet. I use the lighter if not lightestbullets in any caliber I reload.
I used to be in a hunting club and was the guy who skinned/quartered the deer on the processing line. I got to see a ton of wounds and carnage by different bullets. I got to hear the stories of how far they ran or if they dropped right away. Most of the ones that dropped the guys had the lighter bullets and many of the deer that ran or had to be tracked were the heavier ones. I understand the heavier bullets penitrate further and leave an exit wound and blood trail but If I'm using a rifle Im not expecting to track a deer.

The lighter rounds give less kick and less of a rainbow effect which makes them more accurate.

The only drawback I've heard is they lighter/faster bullets ruin more meat which may be true to a point but if a deer gets away after being shot or just gets wounded with a heavier bullet how much meat does that save.

Lastly I've noticed the more I hunt the more I can't take the deer sufferingbefore they die. I am very confident that when I shootmy Nosler BT's anywhere through theboiler room its lights out,no second shot, no kicking and suffering, Ihave a hard time seeing that anymore.
This opinion is from my experiences hunting and in a hunting club Ive been hunting for about 20 years and have killed/seen many deer killed. Im not saying I know it all, just want tobe enlightened why Im wrong or let me knowmy thinking is correct.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

my theory on all of this... i reload... i choose one bullet to cover all of my applications from deer to bear to moose.. in the 280 that happens to be the 175 partition... this way i don't have 23432423 different bullets in the drawer of my reloading desk.

now for coyote and woodchuck and crow.. the hornady 100 gr hollowpoint does a fine job...

in the 35 Whelen AI it's a 225 BT or a 250 Partition... each get the job done licky split...

and FWIW, i've never lost a deer.. i've never had but one run out of sight and that was a year and a half old doe.. shot broadside at 30 yds.. straight through the lungs with the 280 and a 150 grain nosler BT... her sister was standing 60 yds beyond and i shot her in dang near the exact same spot since she decided not to move after letting her sister have it... and she took about one leap and face planted... the rest have fallen within view or on the spot.. depending upon shot... and i feel it is very foolish to believe that just because you are using a "rifle" that no deer stands a chance and is going to fall like a ton of bricks landed on it. such is just NOT the case.

you have 2 scenarios working here also.. energy and momentum... a small bullet moving super fast has a lot of energy... shock value... very destructive as the bullet expands and comes apart, etc... a heavy bullet has momentum... which means once it hits something it wants to keep moving... plus imparting plenty of it's energy... if that heavier bullet stays within the animal consider it a win win situation....

for me i think of it this way.. would you rather have a half grown teenager hit you 3 times real fast or one big ole burly guy hit you one time...

now for handguns... where velocity is low... you need the momentum theory...

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I shoot 165 in my 308 cause thats what shoots best. I have tried anything from 130 to 168 and 165 shoots well. And it kills.

I wanted 150gr prohunters to work, but they shot poorly.

In my opinion the 308 kicking a 165gr bullet out at 2700fps is the best balance of speed and penetration and works great to 200 yards. If I use a gameking.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Lighter Ballistic tip type bullets when shot properly into the vitals kill dramatically compared to a more controlled expansion bullet, in theory. I tend to lean completely the other way myself. I shot my buck this fall ( 225lb ) with a 225 Partition out of a .350 rem mag and with one shot behind the shoulder he collapsed in his tracks stone dead. The other bonus was that with the bullet being so large and solidly constructed you could almost eat to the hole as they say. Meat loss was the least I have seen in a long time. So the point is that there are no rules that can't be broken. I have also taken game with B tips with good results and many hunt elk also with them. Shoot em where you're supposed to and most bullet/caliber combos do the job.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I use the .243., 6.5mmSwede, 7mm-08 and the .270, it all depends on what I want to take on that day. I also have many, many calibers in the safe!;)

I have posted the elk and mulie I shot within 3hrs with the .270/ 150gr NP and the moose I shot with the 6.5mmSwede /156gr Norma "Alaska" It works for me!:)

I normally use the 130gr NPin the .270 and 140gr SuperX-SPin the 6.5mmSwede, 150gr PH in the7mm-08 and 95gr Fusion in the .243.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

"for me i think of it this way.. would you rather have a half grown teenager hit you 3 times real fast or one big ole burly guy hit you one time... "



Yes but I'd rather have you roll a bowling ball at me then shoot a baseball at me out of a cannon.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

"I shot my buck this fall ( 225lb ) with a 225 Partition out of a .350 rem mag and with one shot behind the shoulder he collapsed in his tracks stone dead'


I dont think 225grn bullet is heavy for a 35 caliber. I mainly saying a heavy bullet within that caliber compared to the lighter bullets in the same caliber.
I think the big bores are awesome for deer, I think the lower end wieght for each caliber is the way to go though.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I think you are confusing bullet weight with bullet design. A heavier bullet in the same caliber and design will give you better momentum for increased penitration and a better ballistics coeficient because it will be longer with the same diameter.

For the same bullet design in order to do more damage you would have to drastically increase velocity, which really doesn't happen with the weights you are talking about.

A lighter more explosive bullet design may do more damage to the vitals with a well placed shot, but the heavier bullet with more controlled expansion will have better penitration with a less than optimal shot if it has to go thru heavy bone or a lot of extra tissue (frontal or severe quartering shot). Or on very large tough game.

Knock down power means nothing in hunting ballistics. It has to do with the wound channel and how much the bullet can damage as it goes thru the animal. Nothing will be absolute as far as knocking a deer down on the spot, especially if you shoot it in the vitals. Maybe if you shoot it in the shoulder and can smash both shoulders and keep it from running. And for that I would go for a heaveir bullet that would penitrate better.

I would rather have the best of both worlds. A bullet that penitrates well and will exit the animal and expand well enough to create a large wound channel and do plenty of tissue damage to the vitals.

Basically a heavier bullet is a bit more forgiving and may off a bit better accuracy at longer ranges. Really depends on your rifle and how you hunt.

Paul

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Our present domestic standard load for the 6.5x55 mm Swede is a 139-gr. or 140-gr. pointed soft-point bullet driven to 2550 fsp.s. muzzle velocity. Although those bullets still retain a high sectional density of about .289, comparable to that of the 160-gr. 7 mm (.283) and 190-gr. .30-cal. (.286), and tend to penetrate well, nowadays the cartridge is recommended only for deer and similar size game. The potential of the 6.5x55 mm is limited by its maximum working chamber pressure being restricted to 46,000 c.u.p. (copper units of pressure), compared to 52,000 c.u.p. for many more modern rounds.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I use the lighter bullets per caliber as well. Everything you say in your post is pretty much true. However when you use the lighter bullets, shot placement becomes more important. Poor shot placement will result in excess meat damage and or poor killing power. Heavier bullets get the job done but the lighter bullets give a quicker and more dramtic kill.

That said, I don't go to light. I stay away from bullets lighter than 150 in the 30 caliber because they are intended for Varmits. I wany the SD of my deer bullets to be 200-225. A bit higher yet for elk and moose. If high velocity will be used, then I will up the SD a bit more. The Ballistic tip is about the perfect bullet for deer IMO.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Our present domestic standard load for the 6.5x55 mm Swede is a 139-gr. or 140-gr. pointed soft-point bullet driven to 2550 fsp.s. muzzle velocity. Although those bullets still retain a high sectional density of about .289, comparable to that of the 160-gr. 7 mm (.283) and 190-gr. .30-cal. (.286), and tend to penetrate well

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

If I was simply going to hunt whitetails then I would probably not even bother with a 30-06. Especially if I was going restrict my hunting to Pennsylvania. Probably pick a .243 or maybe a 30-30. But, I am not going to limit my hunting to whitetails....so, since I ant to be able to hunt anything from pronghorns, hogs, deer, elk, moose, and caribou...the 30-06 gets the call. Now, having chosen my caliber I have to decide if I will tailor a load for each game animal or make just one that will work for all. I am lazy, so gonna use one load for all. So, the bullet of choice is going to be (imho) a premium 180 grain pill. Leaning toward a Partition or bonded Hornadys.

Now, about deer dying instantly. It all depends on what the deer is doing when it is hit by the bullet and where that bullet hits. I was convinced that a 180 grain pill was a bit heavy for deer. I as sure that a 165 grain bullet as just the ticket. Really opened my eyes when I shoot a lil doe this rifle season with a 180 grain bullet. That deer flopped down, twitched a few times and gave up the ghost. I have shot excited deer with a .243 and seen them run 50 or so yards. Have shot them with a 44 magnum revolver and seen the flop right down. Depends what you hit and what the deer is doing. It amazes me that a deer can run 50 yards ith no lungs, no heart, and broken bones.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

My post only ?'s bullets for deer since that is what I have the most expericence with.

When I mention the lighter bullet for caliber most of the time its also the one constructed to expand/explode the most.

I am a little more to the extreme on loads. I have many guns calibers but one of my favs. is 110 grn Sierra HP's in my 300WBY mag at about 4000fps and doesnt kick that hard. I know these are not designed for deer or recommended for those speeds but I wish you could see what it does when it hits. I dont thinka deerhas ever heard the gun go off. It lifts then off their feet and puts them down dead, no suffering. Ive used this combo on many deer and for many years and never had a prob with it.

I've used 50grn BT in my 22-250 and it puts it to them also.

I have a few hunting buds that have the same notion I do and dont have any probs with these loads.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Rebel you ever use 120's in that 6.5?

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

No DD, can't say I have!:)

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Thats fine for a picked shot. I can kill a whitetail with a Sheridan 5MM pellet rifle, doesn make the Sheridan a deer rifle. I dont want to be limited to a picked shot. Any angle that buck is showing me, I want my bullet to be able to burrow in a tear the living daylights outta the vitals.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

When is a shot not a "picked shot" I wouldnt care which gun I had, I dont see brown and just squeeze one off. Not saying you do but Im pretty sure you pick your shots also. Ive shot deer in the brisket looking straight at me and in the neck facing away from me, either way no probs. Im no Annie Oakley by any means but I won't take a shot I think wont kill. Neck shots for bucks and head shots for Does are my Favs.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

No hunting rifle will lift a deer off it's feet and knock it down, that is pure myth. It may jump when it gets hit and fall down and die, but they don't physically get knocked down.

Paul

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

We hear ya loud and clear, but I wish you could see what I see when people try those 4K fps 110gr loads. Sometimes it doesn't end up with the happy ending you are portraying. We all have some experience to add. We just can't discredit our own experience because you have had good luck with them.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I totally disagree there. Seen it way too many times with a shoulder shot and 1oz slug.

So how do you figure its a pure myth? Just curious what you are basing that off of?

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Paul, if you got shot square on the shoulder bone,you are saying it won't knock you down?:eek:

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Basic physics and everything I have read about terminal ballistics. In order to have enough energy to nock a target down it would have to impart the same amount of force to you when you shot it, even more when you consider the distance traveled and area of the projectile.

I have shot peices of fire wood with my slug gun using a 600 grn bullet that is supposed to deliver 3,000 ft/lbs of energy and it doesn't even knock it over. How is it going to knock a 150 lb deer on the ground? And why doesn't it knock me down, I only weigh 130 lbs?

We just talked about terminal ballistics here a while ago in the .410 thread with links to data explaining the myths associated with it.

Here is one of them.
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/myths.html

It talks about exactly what you are describing. Myth busters even did a show on it where they hung a pig on a mount that barely held it up. The only gun that moved it was a 12 guage, and it barely moved it enough to knock it off the hook it was balanced on.

I have seen deer and other animals buckle and drop at the shot, or jump and fall. I have never seen one get knocked off thier feet and pushed across the ground. I used to think the same thing until I started reading about it and tried a few experiments for myself. The truth is a bullet just can't transfer that much energy because of its size and design.

Paul

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I have shot concrete blocks withAluminum plates in front with slug guns and knock them completely over. Two of them. If it will do that, it will easily knock down a deer maybe a little off balance or casually eating. Simple physics sure don't work on your side on this one. I would probalby leave that statement out.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

"We hear ya loud and clear, but I wish you could see what I see when people try those 4K fps 110gr loads."

Big Country I would like to know what probs you've seen with these. Im not disagreeing you have seen probs,just wondering what to look out for.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Paul, you're one Hell of a man if you can get shot square on the shoulder bone and it won't knock you down!;)

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

It may not be as cut and dry with just a physics equation. The time I was speaking of I had a deer up hill and about 50yards from me, quartering away and walking up a hill. Since it was walking I went for a safe shot behind the shoulder. The bullet went in behind the shoulder facing and hit the opposite shoulder in the deer. The deer was pushed up\over about 3 feet and landed on its side dead.
Yes the meat in the opposite should was a mess but no suffering involved.

I didnt know the Myth busters were the end all for physics ?'s.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Rebel Hog. You would go and bring up the 6.5;)You are correct about the penetration of that bullet. I quess the 6.5 sort of defy's some of the rules. However I still feel you would get more dramatic kills with the 6.5 using lighter bullets. When the 260 came out, Nosler brought out a 100 grain Partition. I have a couple boxes of them and have not got around to try them. I have used the 120 grain bullets in the 260 and I think the 100 and 120 are the best choice for deer in the 260.

Now I am not saying that the 140 is a poor choice. I just think they have a heavier jacket than needed for thin skinned game. However their performance is beyond question. If I was to have to pick one bullet for the 6.5 it would be the 14o grain Hornady Interlock. For the 260 I would pick a little lighter bullet because lack of expansion has been a little bit of a problem with the 260 and heavier bullets. The 120 Ballistic tip would be an excellent deer bullet for the 260. IME

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I hear you James, but the 156gr Norma "Alaska" did a great job on the moose I shot in Canada!:)

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

James would you be willing to try a 100 gr out of a 260 on deer? It would seem borderline at best unless its an easy broadsider. Numbers would make zrex get excited but just seems light. Seems like the 120 would be perfect for that round for deer...but I havent had one YET! :D

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Heavy on the YET:D. Yes I would try the 100 grain Partition in a second. Nosler brought this bullet out for the 260 for deer hunting. The SD is just 205 but the 120 grain pro-hunter in the 280 is also 205 and it performs great at 2800 FPS. The 120 Ballistic tip would be ideal and I have talked to hunters who have used it with good success. I bought some bulk corelokts for my 260 and they did a good job. AND CHEAP.

RH. I have not tried that 156 grain bullet but I have used the 160 grain Hornady RN for close range hunting. I would still pick the 140 Interlock as a all around big game bullet. In the 6.5 that is. Some say the fast twist in the 6.5, at leasst in the old mausers made them perform beyond their paper ballistics. I can't say for sure on that though I never really got into twist rates to much.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I agree with Paul, I think most people see the impact of a bullet and the reaction of the animal as one movement.If you watch a slow motion video the two reactions are very noticable. Someone said something about a cement block , that is not flesh and bone , not to sound smart but that is alot of difference. I have shot deer with a .220 swift and up to a 45/70 and never knocked one off its feet like its being said, I would think a 45/70 at 30 yards 400 grain flat nosebullet at 1850fps would just about do it ,if it was possible.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I have shot deer with my 7mm Mag and have knock the deer off it's feet. I have also shoot deer at close range (within 15 yards) with my .30-06 and watched them drop intheir tracks but not knock them off their feet. Big big difference.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Light bullets with low SD, might not penetrate. I have to admit 90% of us here really overanalyze the whole bullet thing. But what your talking about is extremes. A very low SD bullet like the 110 and kicking it up to 4K. What I have seen, is lack of penetration. Not always. Maybe not even half the time. But definatly have seen it. You can get by with alot with say a barnes, partition, or failsafe, or TBBC. But doing what your talking about with a weatherby can be dangerous.

You might have had great success, but so have we. Its good for us to share our experiences, but we will probably share them back.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

So because you havn't seen it, it can't happen? I never said that concrete blocks were the same. He was talking about firewood and shareing his experience, and I was explaining, yes, it is possible and yes it does happen. He was trying to use physics to back up his claim, which didn't make any sense.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I don't reload YET. Been thinking about it and probably will start soon.

I have found that I use different wieght bullets in my rifles based on the rifles performance and the confidense I have in the bullet load.

I rarely use my Remington 742 in places where I have to shoot over 150 yards. I have found that this rifle in the best brush gun I have ever owned. I shoot standard factory Remington 180gr rounded soft core lok's. This has been the best for me and I have only lost one deer in 34 years of hunting when using this rifle. The deer I could not find was because of a poorly placed chest shot on my part that actually went between the shoulder and the chest. We found the deer the next day but the meat was ruined because it was fairly warm. The 180 gr load has tremendous knock down power in this rifle.

On the other hand the .280 I owned I used 140gr remington pointed soft cor lok's and had very good performance with the bullet out to 400 yards with my best shot killing a deer at 375 yards. Once again shooter performance has a lot to do with it but the deer dropped dead in it tracks.

My Remington 700 BDL .30-06 I use 165gr Point Soft Cor Lok's and have had great performance out to 250 yards. No lost animals with very few running more 20 yards and a large majority dropping in their tracks.

The only time I have had poor performance was with a 30-30 using 150gr Hornady silver tips and that was back in the 70's. I got literally no bullet expansion. I shot a deer 6 times before it went down. And then I had to put one in the brain bucket before it was dead. I started out with a chest shot and then the deer ran by me and I just kept jack the shells in it. I dug out 6 bullets that expanded to a little over the original bullet size. Could've been cheap ammo I dunno.

I guess what it comes down to is what works for you, what confidence you have in the bullet weight, and your shooting skills.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

What I mean by picked shot is there are limits to where you can shoot a critter with your chosen rifle/caliber/bullet combination. If you are willing to pass on quesionable shots, fine. I have been known to shot deer that I bounce while moving. Often, I am looking at the south end of a north bound deer. My bullet must be capable of penetrating to the vital area of the deer. Take my hunt to South Dakota. While moving into a new stand, I had to walk past quite a bit of thick brush. Really gnarly stuff. Reminded me to mountain laurel without leaves. Anyway, I bounced a really sweet buck and shot him on the 2nd hop. The bullet entered the deer just in front of his left hip and exited through his right shoulder. He died very quickly. Now, when you step up to muleys you get an increase in body size. Not a huge increase, but an increase. More body mass = more required of my bullet. Then we consider elk. Elk are pretty big critters. How about a moose? Really big. I want a bullet that will work on anything from pronghorns to moose. Since I respect the game I hunt, I feel it is my responsibility to make certain that my chosen cartridge/load will kill as cleanly as possible.

One rifle. One load. One scope. While I love buying new guns and tinkering with loads, I have decided that focussing on one rifle/load combination will provide me with the best chance to become truly deadly. Perhaps it is that fact that my Model 70 just feels perfectly bonded to me me when I am using it. "Beware of the man with one rifle, he probably knows how to use it."

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Im only asking about Deer on this Post.

"What I mean by picked shot is there are limits to where you can shoot a critter with your chosen rifle/caliber/bullet combination."

I think any bullet combo will penetrate from infront of the rear hind quarter threw to the front quarter on a Deer. I dont think its ok to put a certain shot on them from one bullet but not the other. I dont think shooting a deer in the ass with any combo is ethical(I know you didnt state it was). Bad shot placement is bad shot placement. I dont think it makes a difference what bullet you have.

My point is, that if we were out hunting and I handed you a rifle to shoot a deer, would not knowing whatcaliber/bullet you had(assuming a deer rifle,deer at100 yards distance not an issue) change where your aim point was. I honestly dont thinkit would make a difference making an ethical shot.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

An ethical shot is based strictly on your rifle/bullet combination and your shooting ability. Is it ethical for me to shoot a running deer? Depends doesnt it? Can you make the shot? Is your bullet capable of delivering a clean kill? Lets face it, some folks just arent very good shots. They may not be able to practice enough. They may have never learned how to really shoot. What is ethical for me to do may not be ethical for you to do. Simply because you draw you limit at a 100 yard shot doesnt mean I can not kill cleanly at 200 or 300 yards. If I can kill cleanly, isnt that an ethical shot? Of course it is. I never take a shot that I am not 100% sure I can make. I am certain you do the same. The difference may well lie is what we, as individuals, can do with a rifle.

If you handed me a strange rifle, I wouldnt take any shot. That wouldnt be ethical.

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

Most any cal. with a decent weight Nosler Partition will easily do it!! For instance, 30 cal. at 30-06 velocities and a 150 grain NP will do it every time. I've seen "softer" bullets fail to do this same thing.

You can think what you want, but once i or someone else shoots at a game animial, i figure it's my duty to take what ever shot i have "includeing" straight away shots to anchor that animial.

I usedstraight awayshots on moose, caribou, brown bears, and deer. I pretty much don't use anything but NP's anymore just for "that" reason. I prefer to use a cal/load/bullet that will anchor my animial at a "worse case scenario" instead of assumeing i'll always have a "perfect" shot and everything will always go "perfectly".

My over 40 years of hunting has long since proven that"perfect" isthe wrong kind of thinking!

Drilling Man

RE: Caliber and bullet choice for Deer. Why so heavy?
 

I agree with Paul. All this knockdown stuff on deer is a myth. The only thing a bullet will knock down is perhaps some small target made ofsomething so dense (like steel) that the bullet can't penetrate it. I have killed a lot of deer with a rifle and seen a lot more killed with everything from a 22-250 to 300 WM. I've never seen one knocked backwards by a bullet. What I have seen is a deer occasionally drop straight down on impact. People often refer to this occurance as "knocking the deer down" but this phrase should not be taken literally. A bullets mass and frontal area is just so small that it reallyisn't able to impartmuch of a lick before it starts to either penetrate, fragment or deflect depending on the physical makeup of what it strikes. Any and all of which virtually reduce its straightline knocking ability down to a very low level despite all the footpounds of energy generated by it's high velocity.