We speak of long range in here so.....
 

I would like to share my story about some hunters shooting long range.

My father took me over to where he works (a very large quarry). There are 8 huge wide open fields that have hills on either side. I have never been over there so I was excited to go. I took my 7mm rem mag and some shooting sticks and was gonna try hopefully for a long range shot. I had 3 fields in my view and my longest shots were about 500 yards. As the day started out, about 3 other hunters moved in overlooking the same fields about 400 yards to each side of me. I saw 2 does down in a thicket that were in front of the one hunter, he was using a bi-pod and a high powered rifle, he shot 4 times at approxamatly 300 yards and missed. An hour later the other hunter to my left had the same type of situation 3 more shots and no deer. Finally in the evening, the hunter that fired in the morning had a doe in the thicket that he promptly unloaded 4 more shots at and again he missed. Now I know for a fact that 2 of these 3 "volleys" were taken at deer standing still. I could not believe the complete and utter lack of ability at these guys to harvest deer that were standing still. I told my father that I appreciated him taking me, but I dont think I will be returning. All of his co-workers are about the most non shootingest bunch I have ever seen, and I dont feel safe being out there. Oh well it beat working I guess :D

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

If I were a deer, that would be my favorite kind of hunter.:D

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

What I really get a kick out of are "hunters" that come into our shop and buy something like a 30-378 and want us to sight it in for them.[&:] We go to the range and sight in at 100 yards. When we ask them where they want the impact to be at 100 more often than not they tell us "dead on at 100".

They buy a rifle capable of having a +-3" point of impact out to 350 yards and zero their rifles at 100 yards. And they wonder why they miss everything they shoot at.

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I usually always sight my guns at 100 that have target turrets on them. That way, I can use the turrets for my range fairly easy. Now, with say my 308, I sight it 1.5" high at 100 so I am 1.5" low at 200. With my 7mm08, same as the 308. Why, cause I feel comfortable with 200 yard shots. But with my old 300RUM I sold recently, I kept it at 2.5" high at 100, so I was hitting about zero at 250. I havn't decided where to put my STW, yet so it is dead on at 100 with target turrets.

Wow, Moss, you didn't help those boys out with thier shots?

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

I was a hunting guide for quite a few years. As I stated on another post, not one hunter out of ten can hit a deer at 300 yards with any consistancy. A deer is a pretty small target at 300 yards and very little error in range estimating or the slightest wiggle will cause a miss by yards at that range. Most hunters can connect at 200 yards most of the time on a still target with a good rest. I would be suprised much more if the average hunter could hit a deer at 300 yards than if they couldn't. This is just the plain hard fact.

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

Amen, BigBulls.

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

I agree, I had a tough time freehanded (kinda leaning on my tree) shooting last week 90 yards. There was alot of limbs and twigs in the way, but still waited until I had a little 6" patch to shoot thru. I did connect. But I have learned the hard way in Canada that 500 yard shots are tough. Too many varibles with wind, elevation, shooting uphill, downhill.

I still yet have had the oportunity to be in my tree stand, with my nice gunrest, and have a deer run in front of me 300 yards. Usually they are right up on me within 100yards. But if the opportunity comes upbroadsided, I will take the shot.

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I see alot of us are in the thinking that the average Joe cant shoot a deer at 300 yards. It still just amazes me that this is true though. I have to honestly admit that I dont shoot at our 300 yard range as much as I should, however I have taken deer at 280 and 340 yards, and taken a groundhog at 368 yards. I do not think that shooting with a good rangefinder, shooting sticks and the right ballistics info that a 300 yrd shot is difficult. As long as its not super windy, a 300 yard shot to me is challenging, but very very doable. Today I really really wanted to say something smart to these guys, not only are they taking shots that are unethical but they are ruining the hunting for the rest of us that can make those shots.

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I practise regularly out to 500 yards and use a laser rangefinder.With a good fieldrest I actually find it quite easy to consistantly place bullets well inside the kill zone of a deer at 300 yards.That being said,I have seen manyshooters at our rangethat have fired several times off of a benchrest to hit the silhouettes at 200 meters.Many fired several times at the 300 meter silhouettes before giving up without ever hitting one.

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LOL ... you guys are dead on. I sight my .30-06 and .300WSM to hit 3" high at 100 yds to take advantage of their long range ability. And I regularly practice at 300 yds. The longest shot I've made to date was 357 yds (laser ranged) and I think that's one part of the problem. These guys who usually shoot deer less than 150 yds away, can't judge distance at long range, and then like mentioned before, have rifles zeroed at 100 yds. Most of these guys have no idea where their bullet will end up at 300 yds or more. What a waste of cartridge capability!

You have to know how far it is, and PRACTICE long range to be effective. I'm glad there's a few of us who don't just "spray and pray". Keep up the good work boys ....

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

WOW MOSSY...
MAYBE YA NEED TO GROW THOSE DEER BIGGER:D
I was wondering the same thing as Big Country...
WHY DIDN'T YOU HELP THEM OUT.....:D

Your absolutely right Mossy..PEOPLE who take long range shotsand don't know what they are doing, is unethical,and it does give hunters a bad rep....
I KNOW CAUSE I HEAR IT ALL THE TIME...:D

I don't hide the fact that I practice these shots,on targets and
have the confidence in doing it in the field but everything has to be right......
I've done it twice and connected both times, but that is out about 50 times that I've passed up on a shooting attempt (not even raising my gun), because it wasn't doable weather it behunting condidtions terrain ortype of game (ELK,MOOSE these I never attempt) but sheep/goat I have....People think that just because you practice long range shots you'll shoot at anything any time...Some people do.. The ones that practice don't,They hold off until its perfect...

Sorry FOR HIJACKING YOUR POST MOSSY....:D

But we all know,every shooterhas just as much responsibility
knowing where they shoot at their comfort shooting range,(from all stories I've read on this forum and any other) the 75yrd to 200yrd has produced alot more wounded game and missed opportunitiesthan what I read at longer distances....
At this range not only are you dealing with the fact that you just missed an animal,But most people havn't clued that bullet still traveling..
another possible400 yrds Potentially killing any living thing in its path till it lands..

Thats why I think its absolutely critical that people shoot
out to 400yrds - 500yrds when practicing..You don't have to shoot game at this range,but at least you know were your bullets end up.....

Your right not hunting with them Mossy,cause they'd have probably would have missed at 50yrds away anyhow and killed you 300 yrds away.....

Than who'd I'd getto help me out.....:D

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I'd be suprised if the average hunter could hit a deer in the vitals at 200 yards more often than not. Working at hunter sight in clinics over the years, I get pretty darn excited when I see a guy shoot 3 shots into less than 2" at 100yardseven using a big pile of sandbags, a solid bench, and telescopic sights. Most of whom I see fire 1 shot, I mark it on the target, fire another shot, it goes 6" away from the first, I start thinking "ok, so he may have had a little oil in the barrel from cleaning it last time" (of course I just made the mistaken assumption that the guy ever cleaned his rifle at all, fires a third shot, which goes 3-4" from the second shot. The guy then asks me on where I should adjust his scope to. I usually sigh a little, and say, lets let it cool off for 5 minutes, in which time I coach him a little. He starts shooting again, by now he's starting to affected by recoil, (This is even worse when you have a novice who wants to buy shooting range by bringing his newly purchased 300 magnum from Walmart) but might be taking his time with his shots and is now shooting 4" groups that are almost workable for adjusting the scope. Invariably I'm asked "I'll be shooting across a picked cornfield, how high should it be sighted in at 100 yards to take shots out to 400?"

If the above example isn't discouraging enough especially after seeing it happen over and over and over again, I'm reminded by the fact that these guys at least attempted to sight in their rifle before deer season, and if not anything else, fire it a few times, I personally know a lot more hunters who never fire their rifles before the season let alone sight them in.

Another interesting bit- women who show up at these events are ALWAYS in the top 1% of the group as far as shooting ability goes, even the teenage girls seem to very well- they probably most likely come from families that have a strong firearms background. I'm not sure why this is, but my best guess is that the few women that hunt take it very seriously and are probably avid shooters besides, and aren't going to hunting camp to drink booze, play poker, and visit strip joints.

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

I generally feel comfortable shooting at 200 yards; I feel a little nervous shooting at 300 yards -- on deer/pronghorn size game. I sight in my rifles at the range and practice at the range. Maybe I shoot 100 rounds a year total, through several rifles including .30-06, .243, and .25-06. When I shoot at game in the field I prefer to use the most stable position available to me, which is generally with my elbows supported on each knee. If I shoot offhand, it had better be less than 100 yards because my groups are about 5" offhand at 100 yards. I try to live within my limitations when I hunt.

Many other hunters, I believe, do not understand where their limits are. They don't sight their rifles in so they have no idea where their aimpoints really are when they go to the field. They do not shoot enough to know how much variation there is in their own shooting -- how wide their groups are in different shooting positions. They don't understand that different bullet weights and even different loads from different manufacturers result in shifted aim points. I know a hunter who prepared for the rifle deer season in Oklahoma by shooting 6 shots. I would guess he did not go to a rifle range but shot on his deer lease at an unknown distance at a rock or some other identifiable target. Who knows what field position he used. He experienced several misses or less than fatal shots during the hunt and was concerned his scope sighting "might be off," but did hit a doe standing broadsidein the belly shooting off-hand at about 30 yards and concluded from this experience that his rifle was "on target" -- I guess this means he deliberately shot 10 inches aft of where most people prefer to shoot. This example hunter has no idea what his shooting limitations are and what variables are involved in shooting (cartridge loads, positions, etc.)

That is just the way it is. I hear the voice of truth coming from the experienced guide who spoke above. I think he may even be seeing the better run of hunters when he says they can consistently take deer at 200 yards. Maybe a hunter who is investing in a guided hunt takes a little more trouble than the guy who happens to know someone whose property he can hunt on for free and pays $16 for a resident deer tag?

An interesting consequence of my limited shooting ability (shouldn't take shots past 300 yards, maybe somewhat less) is that for me there really is no advantage to magnum cartridges -- the good ol' .30-06 is probably flat enough for my shooting. And I would guess that 90% of hunters have just as limited shooting ability as me, so what is all the hoopla about magnums and the crappy performance of the .30-06 and how much better the Gazzumi x83-07 mm Super gazimbo cartridge is? This doesn't mean I disparage these high performance cartridges, I'm just suggesting most people -- myself included -- can't shoot well enough to obtain their benefits.

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I just want to add that I would really like to get more experience shooting at longer distances and shooting off hand. However, the shooting ranges are usually 100 yards max and they rarely let you shoot off hand. They also are mostly load one, shoot one too!

Tom

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I have a few buddies that I consider to be "average" hunters. By this I mean, they don't know how to sight in their deer rifles, and only shoot their rifles at targets a few times a year, and they have me sight them in for them. These guys can not shoot a deer past 150 yards with a solid rest, jerk the triggers, etc. These fellas are all excellent shots with shotguns, but they just don't have the self control or discipline to be a long range shooter. About 2 years ago, one of these buddies approached me, and made it clear that he wanted to be as good of a shot as me at longer distances, and he was asking for help. I sent him to the gun shop when he had the funds available, had him pick up a Ruger 10/22 (my favorite 22) and a good scope. We grabbed a few bricks of ammo, I taught him how to zero it in, and told him to start practicing. That fall when it came time to sight in his deer rifle, he did it himself and shot 3 shots into 1" at 100 yards. He was grinning ear to ear. I took him out deer hunting one evening after he got off work, and he had a doe tag and a buck tag. A doe stepped out of some willows at 289 yards, I told him to practice all we had worked on in the off season, he squeezed the trigger, and the doe fell dead in her tracks.

So I guess what I'm saying, if you want to get good at longer ranges, start small and work your way up. Now, this buddy and I shoot all the time (we loaded 750rds of 243 ammo up a few weeks ago), and we set 2 Liter, 1 Liter, 20 ounce, gallon, etc jugs at 300 yards and we bust them all in 1 shot shooting from the prone position using our backpacks as a rest.

RE: We speak of long range in here so.....
 

Yes that is some non shooting and I can only guess, but I am thinking, they get up, go out and start shooting away, never take it to the range, never go shoot 300 yards and they put it away if they get a deer until next year!

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I wont say how far I shoot and what groups I get the last time I did that I got rip by the guys here but you are all right about the hunters. When I was in sniper school and yes it has been a few years ago 62% of the class fail because they could not hit a target at 1000 yards and 40% fail to hit the target at 500 yards I burn at least 1000 round a year thru my gun so I know what it can do. I just wish it was a law that you had to prove you could hit a target but that wont happen.

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renfro, I agree should be law to test each year! And i have never had to shot farther than 200, and i know i can, just have not had the space to do it, but before I would even think of shooting even 200, i would have to be on the range and put about 40-50 rounds, more if that is what it took to make sure I could make the killing shot at that range, if I did not think i could, i wouldn't. Have been told many times to include Germany that I probably could have shot more, but then again, I was behind the rifle, and you know what, one shot one kill as you say! Never had to use a second one!

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First I want to thank you jlmoore for being over there keep you're head down and give them hell may all you bullets fly straight and true and hit there mark. you seem to know what I am talking about. peace bro and be safe.

chuck

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yes, i read once, that it was better to put 18 out of 20 rounds through a rifle before hunting, then 2 throough and take 18 to the woods. I don't think there is a time I havent gone to the range before i went hunting the first time, and sometimes several times, got use to in Germany of goin once a month even during season, and if it was a big hunt or i dropped the rifle, then I would be at the range and firing at a minimum 5 rounds to verify zero. I might be able to shoot a 1000 yards, but until i do, aint gonna be shootin that far!

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I guess I'm below average because I couldn't hit a barn at 300yrds. Lucky for me where I hunt its all thickguts and ridges, if a deer ismore than 50yrds out I'd never even know he was there.

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no you are not below average you know you're limits and that is great and you know what you can hit and what you cant happy hunting. Tschaef I was trained for years by uncle sam to hit what I shoot at it take a long time and a lot of practice to hit and kill at 1000 yards. I have seen 1 shot kills at 1800 yards with a 50 bmg but thats is want the guy was trained to do the guy that did that was a jar head sniper. thanks uncle sam

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I regularly shoot my .50 BMG and .300 Mag at 600 and 1000 yards using a 9" steel gong at 600 and a 12 at 1000.

With that being said, MOST people have no idea how much a bullet can drop. Even at 300 yards. At 600 yards with just a little breeze, its enough to drift your shot right off of the target.

The great thing about a Mildot scope is the ability to range targets and the ability to use each dot as a aim point at various ranges.

Even so...it takes lots of practice. The deer hunter that shoots just a shot or two before the season to verify his zero wont be able to hit a deer much past 300 yards.

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hotguns, got to agree, and if you shoot more than 3 in hopes of hitting a 300 yard target better shoot at that distance or beyond. As I said i havent had the open range to shoot 300 or more, so i wont even if i had a clear, no wind shot, aint in me! I do love to go the the range and shoot 20 or 30 or more bullets at 100 yards, so i in confident in the gun and range when the deer appears!

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Much past 150 is more like it yet. When I was shooting steel silhouettes every week I got so hitting things out to that 500 meter ram was not real difficult but with a year of getting out of the game, my shooting skills at that range went down hill quickly. Most hunters just don't put in the time it takes to stay sharp. I spend a lot of time at the range helpling out the old guy like me that takes care of it and its amazing every season the hunters show up a week or two before season and you quessed it, most have not pulled the trigger since last season. They don't know what brand of shells they used last year or what grain they were or anything except that they bought what Wally World had on sale yesterday. They take the gun out and half of them take ten shots to get on the paper again.

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yes, i hate that, i try to get out as much as i can. And most of the time is with bow, but a bout 3 months before the season i start using up boxes of ammo to make sure I hit the target. 10 here, 10 there, and they are the same brand, same bullet, and same grain!

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That makes goos sense. Even with my bad shoulder I shoot quite a bit. Even shooting a rimfire is good for breathing control and trigger squeez. And its fun.:D

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I do manage to make it down to the range and watch people try to dial in new guns an scopes the week before gun season comes in here. I reallized I take a lot of things for granted after watching them "attempt" to get their stuff right.Some are grateful for help and some already know it all..lol. Invariably someone always asks me if I am gonna shoot any. The just kinda give me funny looks when i told them I shoot almost every week..lol.

Going to the range the week before the season is always good entertainment and sometimes you can actually help someone. If I were a deer I'd feel safe at 50 yards with a lot of these guys..lol.

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too funny, have to run down there some time. You know it was the same at turkey season last spring, I had been out almost every week for several months prior, boxes of shells, different shells. Decide one last shot before the season, shoot couldnt get in the range for all the cars the day before! Silly me!

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its funny you say that......I told my father on the radio that day when all the shooting was going on that I would feel better dressed as a deer rather than a hunter.......better chance to make it with all those bullets flying around. :D:D

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Not only is it stupid, usually, to sight in a modern HV rifle for a mere 100 yards, it's even dumber to ask someone else to zero it for you! This rarely works very well!

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I agree you got to sight in your own rifle, but what do you do if you do not have access to over 100 yards. THe ranges near us dont have room for more than that, and even at my land with the woods and all, never get more than a 150 yards if you are lucky?

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Amen. In talking to people about rifles and shooting I am consistently amazed at how far off they are on the amount a particular cartridge drops at 300 or 400 hundred yards. And it lets me know instantly that they haven't actually practiced shooting at these ranges or they wouldn't have such huge misconceptions. I also find that most people absolutely suck at judging distance and almost always grossly overestimate it. I hear a lot of people brag about 400 yards shots on deer but I strongly suspect that if truth be known most of these claimed 400 yards kills (if they happened at all) were probably closer to 200 than they were to 400. I'm not hurling that accusation at anyone here just at a lot of people I know. I have a gravel pit on my families land that I do my shooting in. It has room to shoot out to 300 yards. I have had the opportunity to take a few of these self proclaimed 400 yard deerslayers to this gravel pit and watch them try to hit even a 12 inch circle at 300 "ACTUAL" not estimated yards. Listening to them fumble for excuses for their failure to manage this modest feat of marksmanship has provided me with some amusing afternoons.

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You and me both...

I've wona bunch offree meals over the yearsby betting someone(deerhunters mostly)that they cant hit a 55 gallon barrel at 500 yards.

That barrel lookspretty big through a scope and looks like it ought to be easy enough to hit. Most people areup for the challenge when I offer to shoot first and hit it.

What they dont know is that the average barrel is 36 inches tall.
The trajectory ofthe typical 150 grain.30 cal deer loads will be anywherefrom 50-60 inches. If you dont hold at least one barrel "high", then you have no chance of hitting the barrel and will be way in the dirt before it. Thats on a calm day.

It looks easy, but in all the years I've been doing it only3 people have ever hit it one the first shot,one was an ex marine sniper,one was a benchrest competitor and the other guy shoots at 1000 yards with me ocassionaly.

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guess I am gonna have to practice up and get some free meals! Sounds like a good idea!:D

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I'm another one who could not hit a barn at 300 yards. I like close range guns and close range hunting. Not that I have anything against people who are into long range. For me, however, shots taken past 100 yards are usually a waste of ammo.

As a result, I'm moving away from pointy calibers as I collect more guns. At 50 yards or less, a .44 mag will have the same effect on a deer as a .300 wsm, but with less bloodshot meat.

There's something I like about waiting to see the whites of a deers eyes before firing.

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If youare waiting to see the whites of a deers eyes before firing,you will be waiting a long time.:D:D

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I meant that figuratively, of course.

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i agree with everyone on here. hunters should not attempt shots further than they have practiced/sighted in for. this year i harvested my biggest buck to date with my weatherby .300 mag. at 350 yards (laser range finder). i felt comfortable with this shot because i do practice long range shots. alot of the stands i hunt offer shots over 250 yards so i spend time on the range practicing. long shots are not for everyone, so if you're going to take one...spend the extra time on the range and prepare for it. there is no sense in wounding an animal and not being able to find it.i don't care if you completely miss your target, i'm not buying your bullets...just don't hunt near me and spook off my deer. just my 2 cents.

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:D