Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Well, only cast I evershoot is Laser cast 240gr bullets in my 44mag with 10gr of unique for gun shooting.

But have been recently intrigued with shooting in my 45-70. Its a marlin 1895 with 22" microgroove barrel. I am aware of issues with microgroove and lead. But have recently found a bullet that will give you a choice of diameters.

has anyone used beartooth bullets? Looks like laser cast but with options of diameters.

So why use cast? will it hold together better than a jacketed speer? If they are genuinely hard cast will they not mushroom much? Penetrate a whole lot better than my 300gr partitions?

What do ya think?

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

I kinda depends on how hard of a hardcast bullet we are talking about here. They have a wayto quantify the hardness known as Brinell Hardness scale. Or something similar.

A very hard bullet is going to give you less leading at higher velocities and probably work better with the micro groove rifling. Also give little expansion on game. My experience in experimenting around with these in a Marlin 1895 is that as velocities approach 2,000 fps, you really need to start thinking about a gas check. They were a good inexpensive big bore plinking load at about 1800 fps.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Beartooth Bullets are indeed heat-treated. We heat treat our bullets to a BHN 22, and over the course of 18 months they will age-soften to a BHN 21, where they will remain stabile indefinitely.

Seems pretty hard.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

BC, i have a friend (terry labbe) i used to work for, he is now making hard cast bullets, he is on the springfield team and he is a jam-up guy, send him an e-mail, and let him know what you need;), info and bullet wise, i assure you he wont let you down;)

here is his site

http://www.magnusbullets.com/

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Gentlemen,

I have a Marlin 1895SS and have started tinkering around with 405gn FN hard lead cast projectiles. The load I am using is 31gns of AR2207 (=H4198) for 1300ft/s. The load produces cloverleaf groups at 50m and is quite capable of head shooting rabbits out to 80m. There is no expansion (naturally), the slugjust acts like a wad punch. :D I have thought about trying this loadout on a wild pig in the next two weeks in lieu of my 300gn JHPs.

My question is what sort of penetration am I looking at with this projectile/load combination?





Thank you for your comments in advance.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Holy cow, your 45-70 is a rabbit gun. Thats cool. You like to raise the bar for the rest of us.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

:DI was thinking more on the line of moose and pig.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

I use to cast bullets for sale (and my own use) in many different diameters. (includeing .458") What i've found about hardness is, if it's too soft it will lead, and if it's too hard it will break up instead of expand on game. "Depending" on how fast your pushing it, the diameter of the bullet, type of lube, how rough your bore is, type of rifleing ect.. ect... will "all" make a difference is where that line is.

There are NO answers set in stone to what bullet will work in your rifle to do what you want, but i'll bet you in a 45/70 no cast bullet will "out perform" those 300 grain partitions!!!

I can tell you, if you use cast bullets for smaller game and practise, that fine line i talked about above gets a lot wider as you don't have to be so picky! That's what i always did and it worked out well for me.

Drilling Man

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Thats the reply I was looking for. I would like to take some time to do some pentration tests.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Thing is, those partitions will be predictable and with cast bullets it's not so easy. One will not break up, and then the next one will. (asumeing your pushing them and they are hard cast) Then again, if you slow them down a bit, and make them a little softer, they don't break up. But, those partitions will work every time even if you move the velocity around a bit...

Drilling Man

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

DM, would you trust the 300gr partition on a nice brown bear kicking around 1900-2000fps?

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

:D:D:D:D:D

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

I agree with DM. It might be kinda fun to play around with cast bullets for high volume pursuits like plinking or small game, but for bigger stuff I would stick with bullets made for full throttle expansion. The 300 gr. Barnes X bullets are another very good hunting bullet for this caliber. And the 405 gr. Remington JSP can be purchased in bulk at not much more than the cost of lead. These shoot well in the Marlin Microgroove barreland expand like gangbusters at around 1800 fps MV.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Not without testing them first as i've never used them or seen them used. I'm sure the bear would die, but would it break one down, that is what i'd want to know.

I saw a brown bear shot with a .458 with 350 Hornandys and the bullet never exited the rib cage. Same thing with the 400 grain Speer out of a 45/70. I like more penetration than that on big bears.

BTW, A friend of mine who hunted bears a lot saw a brown bear shot with a .458 with a factory 500 grain soft point on a quartering shot, and that bullet didn't exit either.

Drilling Man

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Well, I found my load today. Shooting 45gr of 4198 and 300gr partition, I was astonished at the accuracy of a lever. I was getting around 1MOA. Then at 47gr it started falling apart, getting 2 touching and then flyers 2" away.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Thank you for the sensible responses regarding my question on hard cast projectiles. Using hard cast projectiles in rifles is a new thing for me. My original intention was for plinking as the Marlin has Ballard rifling.

Achieving that sort of accuracy out of my leveraction rifle with lead cast projectiles prompted me to do something different and challenging one Saturday afternoon, go head shoot some rabbits. Five rabbits for five shots. Seeing the length of ploughed up soil made me think these 405gn slugs could possibly be good on a pig. Hence why I asked the question.

I agree with Drilling Man, the only way to know is to conduct a wet newsprint penetration test with these lead projectiles. Just have to accumulate more test media.

For the record, to date I have only ever used 300gn JHPs doing 2140ft/s on deer and pigs. They are the original "one hit wonder".

Now I'm curious to know what the old blackpowder Bear/Buffalo load was for the 45-70 during the 1870s-1880s.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

DM, I am confused, I was always told if you want penetraton on big animals, use hard cast even over swift, barnes or partitions. Well at least thats what the mags always say. I can't say I have ever taken an animal with cast.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Those original blackpowder .45-70's used heavy bullets - very commonly 405 grain lead - and pushed to a modest 1200 fps or so.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Original early load for the .45/70 was a 405 grain bullet. The later "infantry rifle" load was a 500 grain RN bullet, at a bit lower velocity, thus .45/70/500. The 405 grain load was downloaded a bit for carbine use, and ended up as the .45/55/405.

If you have ballard type rifleing, why all the worry about "hard cast" bullets? You should be able to get 1800 FPS easily with the correct bullet diameter and lube, along with a gas check. hard bullets tend to fragmnent, softer bullets will hold together and still penetrate well. IME, people worry way to much about bullet hardness!

There isn't a pig alive that your 405 grain bullet won't put down, assuming any sort of decent hit. If you can head shoot rabbits, go shoot some pigs and find out for yourself.

For those who worry about the Microgroove curse, while you are flogging around the Beartooth Bullet site, read Marshall's tech notes on the .444 Marlin. Cast bullets will work well in multigroove barrels if you do a bit of research. Bullet diameter is much more important than hardness, IME.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

Thank you Charley.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

I would not hesitate to use a LBT Heat Treated type bullet on any animal in North America from Ballistic Advantage Boar-Slammer Premium Hunting Bullets (325) 529-3363, or Cast Preformance Bullet Company.One of these bullets will causesevere cavitation, and deep penetration. A friend of minedropped a 200 lb. Mule Deer at 200 yds.with a .45 cal. 300 gr. LFNGC with a muzzleloader traveling 1900 f/s (150 gr. Pyrodex Pellets)in the front chest. The bullet made a 2.00" hole through the hole body, and stoped between the back of the hind quarter and hide. Not bad for a .24 cent bullet. Good luck.

RE: Benefits of Hard Cast?
 

i shoot nothing but hard cast from my 45 Colt... mainly because i cast my own and it is cheaper than buying "premium" bullets... my hunting loads consist of 290 grain hard cast with a big meplat moving at right around 1200 fps (22.5 gr of H110)..

the issue i find with nosler handgun partitions at these velocities (less than 1500 fps) is that they won't open up... in 45 cal they are meant for things such as the 454 casull...

a hard cast if too hard will break apart and yes if soft will lead and mushroom... but in the high teens to low 20's brinell they will get some deformation and they will punch a deep long WIDE wound channel because of the flat point (meplat)...

if you want hard cast with expansion you can put a pan of water in the oven.. put your bullets in the pan with water covering up to the crimp groove... leave the tips exposed to the heat... heat them to 350 - 400 F for 30 minutes or so... let them cool and the points will be soft...

if you want them hard... knock them over into the water and quench them