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Do we overthink this stuff?
I see alot of posts these days about killing power of this or that. Or that gun isn't powerful enough. Or that bullet isn't suitable.
But I killed two deer this last week with my bow. And shamefully, I made a horrible shot on a 7 point on Sat. So bad, that when I came back in tracking 2 hours later, he got up and ran. I tracked until I was dehydrated with three other guys and running out of daylight. Evenually found him 15 yards from where we quit in a thicket that was pure briars and snake ridden. Seems we pushed him all day. Bad news was the weather got up to 85F and only salvaged the rack.Didn't want to chance the meat,Really ashamed of myself. I shot on a walking target and he came close. Anyway, if a 100gr thunderhead could kill with a right behind the lungs high shot, (worst shot I could get, that I am ashamed to say I did), then any gun would be overkill, wouldn't it? I know its been beat to death, but talked to a neighbor that hunts withasemi 223. He's a goofball, thats for sure, but he hasn't lost the first deer withhis 223, but seemed to lose most of his deer with a bow. Many reasons I see for this, but besides thepoint. One, he only hunts evenings cause he don't like getting up early, and tracking is tough in dark, two, he takes long shots. I don't know guys, I think we have all fellreal deep in this hobby to where we don't know the difference between need and think we need. I am probably the most guilty of them all. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
this is true if we just thought about what bone and crooket used when they hunted sure they more then likely where big cal.s but over the past 200 yards we have made gun accurate fromw hen they where you might hit your target at 40 yards if it was as big as a barn but now you can hit a target from 40 yards thats the size of a milk jug
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
I think that we are ALL guilty of overthinking these matters - evidenced by the fact that the debate about suitable/ not suitable cartridges never subsides. Eventhough the evidence is clear to all that one does NOT neccessarily need a magnum, let alone even a certain favored cartridge as a minimum... yet some will insist that we do need such. Historically speaking, a great many cartridges will do the job. The lowly .30/30....widely understood as being the most popular deer-killer of all time...is pretty anemic by certain standards - yet is obviously very capable.
I must admit that I, in years past, was somewhat afflicted with the "numbers" disease...that a cartridge must produce a certain amount of impact energy, etc. Now, I am much more relaxed about it. I would not shoot deer with a .223 myself...but, if it's legal and works for your friend, so be it. I have never been a big "magnum guy" either (though I have owned a 7mm Mag.). Now, in my old age, I'd much prefer to get closer to the animal than trust my eyesight to make a long shot - as well, I am not thrilled with hard-recoiling rifles anymore. So, as my favorite cartridge is the old 8mm Mauser, I have morphed into a "slow and heavy" guy. It works for me, so I no longer sweat the details...in fact, I like it simple. I wonder if AGE...and the maturity it brings, has more to do with that than anything else. Nothing like a little "mileage" to wear down some of that idealism, eh ? |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
ORIGINAL: gorse I think that we are ALL guilty of overthinking these matters - evidenced by the fact that the debate about suitable/ not suitable cartridges never subsides. Eventhough the evidence is clear to all that one does NOT neccessarily need a magnum, let alone even a certain favored cartridge as a minimum... yet some will insist that we do need such. Historically speaking, a great many cartridges will do the job. The lowly .30/30....widely understood as being the most popular deer-killer of all time...is pretty anemic by certain standards - yet is obviously very capable. I must admit that I, in years past, was somewhat afflicted with the "numbers" disease...that a cartridge must produce a certain amount of impact energy, etc. Now, I am much more relaxed about it. I would not shoot deer with a .223 myself...but, if it's legal and works for your friend, so be it. I have never been a big "magnum guy" either (though I have owned a 7mm Mag.). Now, in my old age, I'd much prefer to get closer to the animal than trust my eyesight to make a long shot - as well, I am not thrilled with hard-recoiling rifles anymore. So, as my favorite cartridge is the old 8mm Mauser, I have morphed into a "slow and heavy" guy. It works for me, so I no longer sweat the details...in fact, I like it simple. I wonder if AGE...and the maturity it brings, has more to do with that than anything else. Nothing like a little "mileage" to wear down some of that idealism, eh ? I agree with you my friend! |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
What got me thinking is, I bought this 45-70 for my deer hunting this year. Thinking I needed it. I know its funny.
I have to say there is a huge difference between my bow hunting, and my rifle hunting. My bow hunting, on this early season, I am generally the only guy in the woods. I can take my time tracking and don't have to worry about somebody else claiming my deer. But in gun season, I need to down them before they run 100 yards in any direction. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Do we overthink this stuff?
Apparantly some don't think so.....when some posts vehimently why the 6mm is superior to the .243 or the .30-06 is better than the .308....etc. these folks are passionate about their opinions. It's what makes the forum and those folks should post adinfinidem... I quit reading after a while because the original thread's intent was served twenty posts ago. Being objective is difficult in the area of personal opinions.....some even think Republicans are better than democrats.....don't try to tell them that it's not so.....No way they're going to believe it. Do we overthink this stuff? ....certainly.....it's why I'm working myself to less than ten firearms from over forty.....but that won't change the next guy that goes the same route I've gone. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Vapo, you got that right!!
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
big...I always figure the guys asking those type questions don't have much experience or nobody to help them locally...But, no we don't need all the "stuff" we buy...Fortunately for most of us its a hobby...If I just had to kill a deer to feed my family a good moonlit night might just be when I was hunting...And my caliber of choice might be a .22...We all want instant kills and I usually am able to get these with my centerfire....Bow hunting shows us that we are inferior when it come to our quarry....I started in the early '70s with a Bear 45 lb recurve and 2 Bear heads...As you know they killed deer...
Even with all the improvements in archery "stuff" still happens...I for one refuse to use a release or a peep....To me that goes too far...I have seen as I get older that I do enjoy the outing more than when younger...I don't have to prove a thing to anyone...And neither do you...Just do your best and enjoy....Afterall we are all humbled sometimes....Good Luck |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
To quote click and clack, I have been unencumbered by the thought process.
I agree with Vapodog except the Republican crack which we all know is wrong.. I have owned a boatload of rifles over the years, different makes, models, actions, and calibers. Several years ago, I sat down and examined how and what I hunt. Determined that 99.9% of my time was spent in the swamps and ridges of Maine and 99.9% of the time I was carrying my 308. So over time, I sold off a boatload of stuff and now have a a small, and hopefully, well thought out collection of firearms that are actually used.I really don't miss anything I have sold. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
There are a few things I do miss. Some Browning Auto-5's. And such. I now may have 20 long guns. A majority are blackpowder, next shotgun, next high powered rifle and a few little 22's. I enjoy guns, but figured out a few years ago, I think I love target shooting more than gun hunting. I enjoy bow hunting cause the animals are calmer, usually see more, and I get more excited by it. And then if them little suckers stay 40 yards away all year, its payback time around Thanksgiving.
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
ORIGINAL: Vapodog Being objective is difficult in the area of personal opinions.....some even think Republicans are better than democrats.....don't try to tell them that it's not so.....No way they're going to believe it. Are either worth the trouble it takes to dig a hole to bury em in?:D |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
outdoor life addressed this very issue. The animals arent any harder to kill, we just have advanced the gun/ammunition offerings. This magnum craze is born in the minds of genius marketing folk. More is better, and more than the next guy is the best! This would be the chant of a firearms manufacturer. We willingly buy into it. EJ
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
I also agree. One thing that I base my "stuff" on is my personal comfort level. Just like the .22 caliber bullets for deer. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with it, so I don't use it.
I just have a big deal with using the same size bullets for deer that I use for tree rats. Sorry. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
WELL I'LL BE DURNED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
ORIGINAL: bigcountry ..... I don't know guys, I think we have all fellreal deep in this hobby to where we don't know the difference between need and think we need. ...... I've trimmed my big game rifles down to three now, and not too sure what I need with the third one, but it's such a pretty rifle (Sako Mannlicher carbine in 308Win.). We all had all we NEEDED many years ago for HUNTING in the lower 48 or even in Alaska (30/30, 45/70, 7x57, 270Win., 30-06, 35Whelen, 375H&H, and for those who must have short actions, the 308Win. and 358Win.). But then, how would all those gun gurus/writers make a living, and where would the gun makers be. Those companies need profits, and they get them by selling the public on the "need" for the newest whizbang magnum, etc. (SAUM's, RUM's, WSM's, WSSM's, the 17cal. this or the 204 that, etc., etc.) Maybe it's time I go out and get me another Marlin 30/30, and throw on a cheap Weaver 1-3x scope, sell the Sako, and forget all this nonsense. But then, what to do with my 270Win., and the 358Win. carbine? The 30/30 would do it all if I just put theHUNT backinto the hunting. The ammo would be more affordable too. Don't need no premium junk just for deer hunting. And, that'll leave me more money for gas! Or, for more of that good 'ol 22LR ammo. Yep, think it's time for a new (old) rifle - a Marlin 30/30.  |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Gun people love to talk about guns, loads, optics etc. They love to try new things. This forum wouldn't be very interesting if it were populated by hunters who have only shot one rifle- a 30-30, 30-06, or 270 for the last 40 years.
I pretty much only use one rifle for hunting, but I have about 27 others. I like to target shoot, tinker, and collect, not to mention talk about them. I just bought a rifle this last week that I'll never use for hunting, I bought it mostly as an investment piece, and its worth more than my next 3 rifles combined. Wounding or losing a deer is going to happen if you hunt. Nobody likes to talk about it, but the only people who haven't done it are probably those who don't hunt much. It sucks, I've felt the same type of remorse and second guessing before myself. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Republicans ARE better then democrats. :D
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Not that I'm an expert, but shot placement is said to be most important. Your lost deer is a case in point.
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
ORIGINAL: Ridge Runner if ya don't wanna track, ie DRT, shoot a fast small caliber rifle with a high expansion light for caliber bullet ( 243's and 25's seem to be best on our size deer)and hit them at the point of most resistance the scalpula(shoulder blade) this way they absorb the massive shock wave the bullet is capable of delivering. this sends the shockwave up the central nervouse system to the brainstem, and pushes the blood backwards through the major blood vessels causing instant death. Controlled expansion bullets are not very good on light thin skinned game above 22 cal. they leave an exit wound which some folks prefer but if the bullet is put into the lungs an exit is a moot point, the deer blow pleny of blood for tracking from the nose/mouth as they're lungs start to fill up with blood, about 50 yds from POI. These are just my observations from about 30 years of deer hunting with lots of different rifles RR If you take & make good shots....I'd go with that! Ford/chevy...coke/pepsi... mine is better than yours. Like it's been said, most of the stuff is just maketing nonsense. There is no magic, most guns pretty much do the same thing. Some people just get so caught up in the name & what it is suposed to do. Just a few years ago nearly everyone thought the .44 rem mag was the most powerfull thing on earth, however, If I wanted to kill a deer I'd just as soon have a 30/30 (the puniest thing on earth, right). I've shotmany deer with a variety of guns. One kills 'em just as dead as the other, in capable hands. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Thanks guys. Sometimes I think its important for some of us to come back down to reality. I have seen several of posters litterly upset over the mentality of young hunters and high powered rifles. Or even modern hunters.
Fact is, we are overgunned with just about anything over a 44magnum or 30-30. Even with your run of the mill corelok. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
"....Sometimes I think its important for some of us to come back down to reality...." If my reality was the hunting of pint size deer in heavy eastern or southern woods (which isprobably the near-majority of folks on here)then then my tool box might vary from what it is today while hunting for Big Game inthe Intermountain West. Personally, I kindafind the hardcore guys that "push the envelope"to bemuch more interesting overall as they have very little of the "just get by attitude". I find them, as a group, to generally be more knowledgible, better outfitted, better financed, better equipped, farther ranging, bolder, and more successful. Judging by some of the newbie elk camps I see each year and some of the results they net, I'd say some of these folks need to do a lot more thinking (overthinking???) about just how in the heck they are going to "pull off"an away from home/remote big game hunt than what they have obviously done (including rifle selection). Too many just "half arse" it and wonder/complain that it didn't work. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
 I'LL BE DURNED AGAIN! Who would have thought? |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
I have to say that after struggling with a lightweight mauser 1909 in .300 win mag (WHICH MY GRANDFATHER BUILT UP FOR ME), I realized that I am a flincher. I can control it and hit thetarget but that doesn't mean it is any fun. It is downright painful to sight in.
I just bought a used savage 110 (WITH ACUTRIGGER!! FOR 200 BUCKS!!) in '06. It is much easier to hit withand I am old enough and man enough to admit I shoot better with it, because (AND ONLY BECAUSE) of the lower recoil. I will take this '06 elk unting this year. And for Oklahoma white tails, I may switch to a 7x57 or 6.5 swede, or even a 250 savage. IMHO, for the small OK dear, anything over 100 grains at 2400 fps would be fine IF YOU CAN HIT WITH SAID RIFLE!! I am uncomfortable shooting past 200 yards anyway. So, although I still get excited when someone makes a new 3000 fps + super mini ultra small uber laser magnum, maybe I should just get good with a couple of hunting rifles for the serious work like hunting. Plus the .22 LR is the coolest cartidge anyway. okcmco |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
"....lightweight mauser 1909 in .300 win mag...." "....I realized that I am a flincher...." Is there a slight chance you may have causes and effects reversed? [i.e. the problem is the rifle (not the cartridge) and not you?] And the recoil sensitivity epidemic rolls on, and on, and on |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster "....lightweight mauser 1909 in .300 win mag...." "....I realized that I am a flincher...." Is there a slight chance you may have causes and effects reversed? [i.e. the problem is the rifle (not the cartridge) and not you?] And the recoil sensitivity epidemic rolls on, and on, and on okcmco |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
This is a great thread! I have been having the same thoughts about my choices of calibers. I started deer hunting 22 years ago with a 30/30 and never lost a deer, but I HAD to move up to a 270for more rangeand never lost a deer.When my sons started hunting, I started them outon a 223 and never lost a deer. About 4 years ago, my deer weren't dead enough so I HAD to have a 300WSM and haven't lost a deer. Now my sons are shooting 243 and 270 and have never lost a deer. This summer, I got my old 30/30 back out and sighted it in for this year, and my sons think I am crazy and won't kill a deer this year. I killed 4 deer last year with my 300WSM and 4 with my muzzleloader, and none of them were shot past 75 yards. I took a hard look at all the guns in my safe and am going with the 30/30.
We might over think a little. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Retriever,
I’m guessing here, but I’ll ask anyway…. After 22 years have you considered passing on (or adding on to) the annual deer slaughter and kicking your hunting up a notch and head out to new horizons and stretch that 300WSM’s capabilities (and your own a bit)? A 270 is an excellent deer rifle. Did you have something else in mind when you got the 300WSM? |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster Retriever, I’m guessing here, but I’ll ask anyway…. After 22 years have you considered passing on (or adding on to) the annual deer slaughter and kicking your hunting up a notch and head out to new horizons and stretch that 300WSM’s capabilities (and your own a bit)? A 270 is an excellent deer rifle. Did you have something else in mind when you got the 300WSM? I am sorry but I really don't have a clue what you are asking me.Yes, 270IS an excellent deer cartridge.I am not arguing that. If you are insulting me for killing 8 deer, 6 were does in a management program. I am posting pictures of the bucks that I killed in 2003 and 2004.I am not"slaughtering" 18 month old basket racked 6 points.    |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
No insult intended
Normally I edit my posts quite carefully, I originally had more clarifying language added on but it sure isn't there now. I just palin missed it. I'll try to clarify.... 22 years 8 deer per year = 176 deer. That is a lot of deer, even if it wasn't 8 every year. They appear to be taken on a prettyregular basis. ** After 22 years (and xxx deer) are you getting any itching to tackle something bigger/further away and was that perhapsthe reason you bought your 300WSM? (Question #1). --OR-- ** Were you merely guiled (as seems to be the current complaint within the thread) by peer pressure and marketing hype and those manipulative gun writers? (Question #2) --OR-- ** Something else? (Question #3) When I see something which strikes me as "different" or unanswered in my mind; it is not beyond me to inquireso I might better appreciate thedifferent viewpoint. I am curious about your reversion to your childhood gun and what it is driven by.... **Whim? **Nostalgia? **Boredom? **The quest for more challenge? (e.g. Lots of folks have given up rifles for archery --- one could always go to a lower performing rifle in a quest for more challenge.) I've got my childhood 30-30 in the safe, but the odds of it ever working its way into the "pole position" on one of my Big Game hunts is slim and none (not even for a back up rifle). You seem to have a nice rack of well spaced rifles. Just curious. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
I believe there comes a time in most men's life when they become confident in the equipment they use and such need to look elsewhere for the new improved go by the wayside. Outside of having a new toy most men will opt for there old reliable first. I used to study ballistic like it was a bible. It has helped me alot over the years guiding when the clients shots get long. But other than that for myself it hasn't done much.
Awwwwwwww the new caliber craze. Its fun its new but it don't really gain much. I was at the gun shop when they got they're first 270 wsm's. The gun smith said this will kick a 270 win's ass. So I said okay let me see the ballistics. I laughed and they asked why. I told them I have been reloading 270 win at that speed for decades. Of course they looked at me like I was full of bull. Anyway new stuff may have an edge especially on factory ammo. But would I trade in my trusty300 win mag for a new untested 300 RUM I don't think so. Besides the animal is just a dead with either. HOW DEAD IS DEAD ANYWAYS. I guess you can always just blow something up. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
What ever happend to proper shot placement?
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
What ever happend to proper shot placement? IMHO, nothing --- bullets through the vitalsare bullets through the vitals, still the same today.Some cartridges do more than others on their way "getting in there" and while they are "in there"and offer more ways for the hunter to "skin the cat" than others in terms of a wider selection of viable shot opportunities. Some folks may complain as they think that is cheating, but that is an ancient argument. Remember, that in 1906 when the 30-06 came out there was similar b!tch!ing and moaning from a whole genre of black powder fans and even the "then only 11 years old" smokeless powder 30-30 affectionados! So complaining about the new stuff as being overkill and not needed is a fine and long established American tradition. Misguided but a fine heritage. Why not embrace both the newer (the RUM's, the WSM's, the Lott, etc.) and the older (22LR, 30-06 (1906), 416Rigby (1911), 375 HH (1912) and all the great stuff in between . Create a well spaced rack of rifles by picking from which ever group you like according to the limitations you are willing to acceptand then match sufficiently strong tools to the "caliber" of the game being pursued and have at it.... It just can't beTHAT hard. It is GOOD to have choices! You don't have to buy it if you don't like it. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster No insult intended Normally I edit my posts quite carefully, I originally had more clarifying language added on but it sure isn't there now. I just palin missed it. I'll try to clarify.... 22 years 8 deer per year = 176 deer. That is a lot of deer, even if it wasn't 8 every year. They appear to be taken on a prettyregular basis. ** After 22 years (and xxx deer) are you getting any itching to tackle something bigger/further away and was that perhapsthe reason you bought your 300WSM? (Question #1). --OR-- ** Were you merely guiled (as seems to be the current complaint within the thread) by peer pressure and marketing hype and those manipulative gun writers? (Question #2) --OR-- ** Something else? (Question #3) When I see something which strikes me as "different" or unanswered in my mind; it is not beyond me to inquireso I might better appreciate thedifferent viewpoint. I am curious about your reversion to your childhood gun and what it is driven by.... **Whim? **Nostalgia? **Boredom? **The quest for more challenge? (e.g. Lots of folks have given up rifles for archery --- one could always go to a lower performing rifle in a quest for more challenge.) I've got my childhood 30-30 in the safe, but the odds of it ever working its way into the "pole position" on one of my Big Game hunts is slim and none (not even for a back up rifle). You seem to have a nice rack of well spaced rifles. Just curious. Sorry for the slow reply, but we took a pretty good hit from Rita and just got all power and internet rehooked. I have only killed about 85 deer andmany of those have been does under our management program. My 300 WSM is a Virgin Valley/Mike Bellm Custom Encore, and I was "talked" into the caliber by the VVG guys. I have no regrets in "choosing" 300 WSM. I had been shooting a Ruger M77RL (ultra lite) 270 for many years and getting pounded. My barrel is a full bull, and the 300 WSM literally kicks like a 243 which is what I was going for. The range that I use only is only 300 yards, but I can shoot dime size groups at 300 yards on a still day. Long range shooting is not a problem. Long range shots where I hunt is a problem. I killed a deer in 2003 at 285 yards with my 300 that never new what hit him. I CAN do long range. I don't want this to sound like a brag, but I believe I can kill a deer with any caliber. I saw someone mention shot placement. THAT is the key. My 30/30 is super accurate and will kill as well as my 300 WSM if the shot is good. My brother has shot a 22-250 for years and killed many deer with neck shots. I do bow hunt too but am not as "diehard" as many guys. If I can kill a deer with a stick and a string, a 30/30 sure ought to be enough. Plus, I like my Marlin 30/30 and enjoy carrying it. |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Well, I realize the post has been seriously high jacked, but I just keep coming back to see that amazing second deer you show retrieverman. did you harvest it on your property?
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Sorry for hijacking the thread, butyes, it was killed on my families land in Alfalfa County Oklahoma. I saw 2 more last yearthat were not as massive but would score really close to what he did (178). I have high hopes for 2005. All 3 deer were killed on family land. I only lease 440 acres here in Texas that adjoins more family land.
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Well, anyway it goes, he's a hog. Congradulations, I have only seen deer like that in the middle of the night while 4 wheeling. And I have been hunting for a long time.
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Personally, I'm glad you guys overthink this stuff. It gives guys like me chance to hear many opinions from all over the country. I live in an area where hunting almost never comes up at the water cooler. If these threads didn't go on forever, I'd have nowhere else to listen to real hunters. To tell the truth, I've actually changed a couple of my opinions based on a good arguement from some of you. I say keep it friendly, and keep it up!!
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Its always a shame to loose game,when in the field.As besides being good table fare,we look forward to this each year,all of us!! using a bow or rifle its all down to placement with our shots and i,ve always been a big believer of that!! Practice is the key for all of us. Most don,t find,or have time to do so. Big country,in the last few years i use 223,with a 70gr speer bullet.It really works great.I have shot many deer with this and quite a few wild hogs.Got a deer last week end on opener with it again.Hope your luck will have a better direction next time and im sure you were sick to loose that animal as well as the rest of us! We all do belong ot the Spoon and Crockpot club though!!! see yah vangunsmith
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RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
"....Do We Overthink This Stuff?" |
RE: Do we overthink this stuff?
Oh yea, I need some jerky meat/tenderloins, berger. But hey I redeemed myself last week. Nice 7pt. Bow still has contact issues. I can't keep hitting these deer on the high side of the lungs.
So I analyzed a 223 hole in a deer a freind shot last year. And couldn't believe the amount of damage it did. On your hog, where did you hit it? Do good damage? I hunted hogs this year, and they about ran me over. I missed with a bow, and finally doc holiday'd it with my trusty 44. |
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