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Be Sensible!
Not trying to single anyone out, just venting one of my little pet peeves--- starting new shooters out with too big of a gun!
Remember, there are many people who come to this board as new shooters, and hunters.Not knowing their age, size, and/or penchant for recoil, it is just plain irresponsible to suggest to them large magnum calibers, and bores! That is the easiest way to turn them away from shooting sports, or getting them to develope a flinch, that may take years of work to undo! I can shoot the big boys all day long now, but I can still remember that first shot with an old 12 ga. Winchester singleshot, over 40 years ago! Remember, even a lightweight .308 can be more than many people can handle! So, please do not be recommending .300 magnums to newbies! |
RE: Be Sensible!
I agree.
One of my friends took his g'f turking hunting two seasons ago. He called up a nice gobbler and she shot at it. As soon as she pulled the trigger, she threw the gun on the ground. She won't touch a gun now. With that said, she missed. I asked why he didn't buy her a 20ga. (this guy can more than afford it) or at least put a 2 3/4 shell in the gun. He said he didn't think it kicked that hard. To a MAN that has hunted all his life, it may not. I will admit that when I am shooting at game, I do not feel the recoil at all. But on paper, its a different picture. |
RE: Be Sensible!
Wow... That reminds me of the story about my wife (years and years ago back in the late 70's). My wife was only like 16 years old at the time and was hanging out with her sister and a bunch of boys that they knew. One of them decides to go home and get his dad's 30-06 and a box of rounds. They decide to venture off into the woods to play around shooting the 30-06. (back in those days, you could do things like that)...
Anyway, my wife never even held a rifle before. Heck, she never even shot a BB gun before either!! These boys wanted to play a cruel prank on her and her sister and said something like, "here ya go, try it" - with no instruction on how to hold it or what the recoil would be like. Long story short - my wife pulled the trigger, got knocked about 5' backwards, stumbled, and landed on her butt. [:o] To this very day, all these years later, she won't go near a gun, rifle, shotgun, handgun, etc...etc... She didn'tturn into an ANTI - thank God, but she is extremely timid and scared to death of firearms. {way to go boys, back in the 70's... way to go... a**holes!!!! [:@]} |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: JagMagMan Not trying to single anyone out, just venting one of my little pet peeves--- starting new shooters out with too big of a gun! Remember, there are many people who come to this board as new shooters, and hunters.Not knowing their age, size, and/or penchant for recoil, it is just plain irresponsible to suggest to them large magnum calibers, and bores! That is the easiest way to turn them away from shooting sports, or getting them to develope a flinch, that may take years of work to undo! I can shoot the big boys all day long now, but I can still remember that first shot with an old 12 ga. Winchester singleshot, over 40 years ago! Remember, even a lightweight .308 can be more than many people can handle! So, please do not be recommending .300 magnums to newbies! |
RE: Be Sensible!
I agree. With the improved powders and bullets today magnums should be less relevant than they were 25 years ago, yet when you listen to someposts you would think magnums are the only responsible way to hunt.
I do like the idea of the new low recoil loads by Federal and Remington for new shootersso you can avoid buying a second gun later. It is a limited selection of ammo choices, but in my mindyou can justify a 300 Win Mag for a 14 year oldif itwill kick less than a 308 like the Manage Recoil loads do. I think the low recoil ammo is going to become more poular as time goes on. |
RE: Be Sensible!
I bought a .270 at 15.....how much better off I'd have been with a .222 and now I see folks recommending .30-06 to kids of 8.....what a joke!!!!!
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RE: Be Sensible!
I'd agree that magnums aren't a good place for a newbie (especially a child-child) to start.
================================= When building a rack of long guns, for the first three guns it's hard to beat a 22LR, a 12 gauge (trap loads for starters), and a 30-06 (low bullet weights or reduced loads tame it right down)---saving the 30-06 for last. **Paying attention to stock fit and gun weight is always key. **Small/weak kids would do well to start with a varmit rifle on varmits (not deer) before moving up to the 30-06. **For some big game animals, the child needs to wait until they grow into being able to handle thespectrum of rifles appropirate for thatgame. **Too many individuals enjoy setting up a newbie (no training, short stock, heavy bullets, etc.) to get slapped when introducing them to a borrowed rifle; a crime in itself, IMHO. ================================= Also a very key element in this equationis the attributes of theindividual --- not everyone has the same salt --- I was a string bean as a kid, and .... 22LR at 5 410 at 8 30-30 Win at 9 [:'(] 12 gauge at 10 270 at 14 (10 years older brother had a 243 &I consistantly out shot him on prairie dogs) 338WinMag at 23 Note: Did okay shooting my brother's friend's 458WinMag at 16 (standing); it was a novel experience, but the rifle was way heavy to shoot free hand (thankfully). Just never scared of a bigger gun, carries thru from childhood to today. Just love smacking them and the more the merrier--- then again I did start with a 22 and spent the obligatory childhood time time screwing around with a 30-30, it was a looooong wait until I could save my schenkles for that 270, then I triedthat 338WinMag and oh my oh my --- now we're talkin', I've never looked back since. ================================= Plan on using a 458 Lott on elk this fall just for practice and grins (giggle, giggle, can't wait). I know I've strayed from the topic a bit; however, my point is there are no steadfast rules, it depends largely on the particular individual in question. |
RE: Be Sensible!
The first gun I ever owned is the Remington 870 I still own today. Was an express model, 12 ga, 28 inch barrel! At nine years old, it was a bit much, but I think that I can shoot just about anything now. The pain still hurts, but I don't flinch. lol.
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RE: Be Sensible!
Agreed! IMO, there's really not much need for any magnum cartridge to hunt anything in the lower 48. I've used 'em years ago, and enjoyed shooting 'em. Still do, especially like the 375H&H. But, to start off with folks should get well acquainted with a good 22LR. Then, for a first centerfire deer cartridge try out a few at the local ranges. Most, I think, would do well to go with the likes of the 6.5x55, 270Win., 7x57, 280Rem., etc., or evena 30/30. Heck, for deer you really don't need anymore than these provide.
7mm-08 or 308Win. if you want a short action. |
RE: Be Sensible!
If deer is your quarry, then it don't take much to whack them, especially short range whitetails. Many folks plateau at this level.
High mountain muley's may be a bit more challenging in terms of rifle performance. The good news is rifles are relatively inexpensive compared to the cost of the bigger hunting trips, so one can always buy another one foraway from home/remotetripsfor bigger game later, that is assuming that you don't become stuck in a rut and soooo attached to "old Betsy" that you can't mentally move beyond her,which of course leads intothe neverending"just get by with what you've got" game. |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: Virginia7 Agreed! IMO, there's really not much need for any magnum cartridge to hunt anything in the lower 48. I've used 'em years ago, and enjoyed shooting 'em. Still do, especially like the 375H&H. But, to start off with folks should get well acquainted with a good 22LR. Then, for a first centerfire deer cartridge try out a few at the local ranges. Most, I think, would do well to go with the likes of the 6.5x55, 270Win., 7x57, 280Rem., etc., or evena 30/30. Heck, for deer you really don't need anymore than these provide. 7mm-08 or 308Win. if you want a short action. |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster **Small/weak kids would do well to start with a varmit rifle on varmits (not deer) before moving up to the 30-06. I do agree all those years behind a single shot .22 rifle and 20 guage allowed me to be a much better shooter today. I can gladly pull the trigger on my 870 super mag and not have anysecond thoughts about it, and smile when launching something out of the 300 WM. Sensiablity is such a huge thing. I'll probably buy some more and varied barrels for my encore so if my future children decide to give shooting a whirl I won't be buying a new gun everytime then need a new caliber. |
RE: Be Sensible!
Reb,
You "....especially like the 375 H&H...."? [per your applauded quote] Really? I didn'tknow you'd been down that path so as to be familiar.... Well alright, good for you. ================================= Ferris, The term "weak" applies not just to strength but also the absence or presence of both durability and tenacity, both of which were reflected in my post as different individuals having different "salt." |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster 22LR at 5 410 at 8 30-30 Win at 9 [:'(] 12 gauge at 10 270 at 14 (10 years older brother had a 243 &I consistantly out shot him on prairie dogs) 338WinMag at 23 |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster Reb, You "....especially like the 375 H&H...."? [per your applauded quote] Really? I didn'tknow you'd been down that path so as to be familiar.... Well alright, good for you. ================================= Ferris, The term "weak" applies not just to strength but also the absence or presence of both durability and tenacity, both of which were reflected in my post as different individuals having different "salt." use for a .375H&H in this country! |
RE: Be Sensible!
Butch,
Seems we may be products of different environments. I grew up in the open plains of Nebraska (and now Colorado)with long horizons and 60 to 80 mile visibility, what you might call a long shot, we would call ordinary. It wasn't legal for me to hunt deer until I was 14 so I was stuck with that W-9430-30 for 5 years.... Short little steel butted stock, short little barrel, short little cartridge with flat nosed bullets that dropped like a rock, top ejection thatmade a scope impractical --- that combined with wide open spaces just didn't make for a very satisfactory package, as for coyotes and prairie dogs (typical "young kid" fare growing up) it was a POS. I resolved that by the time I was old enough to hunt deer I would get myself afully capableweapon for my environment, and I did. If I was going to be involved in some "briar-patch" brush busting hunting, then I'd probably gravitate to a Marlin in 45-70 or a double rifle of some sort, both are pretty quick handling and don't fall short on "punch." Now some folks like 30-30'sI guess and that is fine; they just came across as anemic in my life experience. I've still got that little popper as it was my dad's gun and so I can't sell it.The kidsdon't like it or want it and neither does the wife. It sits in the far back left corner of the gun safe and seldom sees the light of day. ================================= Reb, 338 & 358, that's kinda what Iremembered --- just temporarily puzzled byyour much applauded all encompassing quotewith the endorsement of the 375 H&H which you included as though it were your own. I supposeif one is stay on track to do 10,000 posts ina singleyear, thenone probably can't dwellexcessively on accurate detail/editing or too much original thought. Dang, that's 27 posts each and every day --- no days off, no vacation.... |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster Butch, Seems we may be products of different environments. I grew up in the open plains of Nebraska (and now Colorado)with long horizons and 60 to 80 mile visibility, what you might call a long shot, we would call ordinary. Yeah, open plains is not the best area for a 30-30. I have seen shows on TV in Nebraska, South Dakota, Colorado, etc... and these guys shoot antelope from like 1/2 mile away! Now that is marksmanship! ;) |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster Butch, Seems we may be products of different environments. I grew up in the open plains of Nebraska (and now Colorado)with long horizons and 60 to 80 mile visibility, what you might call a long shot, we would call ordinary. It wasn't legal for me to hunt deer until I was 14 so I was stuck with that W-9430-30 for 5 years.... Short little steel butted stock, short little barrel, short little cartridge with flat nosed bullets that dropped like a rock, top ejection thatmade a scope impractical --- that combined with wide open spaces just didn't make for a very satisfactory package, as for coyotes and prairie dogs (typical "young kid" fare growing up) it was a POS. I resolved that by the time I was old enough to hunt deer I would get myself afully capableweapon for my environment, and I did. If I was going to be involved in some "briar-patch" brush busting hunting, then I'd probably gravitate to a Marlin in 45-70 or a double rifle of some sort, both are pretty quick handling and don't fall short on "punch." Now some folks like 30-30'sI guess and that is fine; they just came across as anemic in my life experience. I've still got that little popper as it was my dad's gun and so I can't sell it.The kidsdon't like it or want it and neither does the wife. It sits in the far back left corner of the gun safe and seldom sees the light of day. ================================= Reb, 338 & 358, that's kinda what Iremembered --- just temporarily puzzled byyour much applauded all encompassing quotewith the endorsement of the 375 H&H which you included as though it were your own. I supposeif one is stay on track to do 10,000 posts ina singleyear, thenone probably can't dwellexcessively on accurate detail/editing or too much original thought. Dang, that's 27 posts each and every day --- no days off, no vacation.... |
RE: Be Sensible!
im going to admit it i got the shooters flinch i think im not sure ive been working my way out of it but i dont no i sometimes i still flinch lol im 16 shooting a 30-06 ive almost out grown the flinch but somtimes i still might not thinking but my soht is still good
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RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: ButchA Yeah, open plains is not the best area for a 30-30. I have seen shows on TV in Nebraska, South Dakota, Colorado, etc... and these guys shoot antelope from like 1/2 mile away! Now that is marksmanship! ;) Most of my antelope hunting was done with a 243Win. (Rem.788 & then a Ruger77). BUT, the most fun was sneaking up on 'em, and getting within about 50-75yds. before taking the shot. No, it didn't always work, but enough that stalking 'em was a lot more fun than shooting 'em at long range. Longest shot I ever had on a big buck was approx. 225yds.- getting out there, but still within the range of an accurate/scoped Marlin. Sure wish I had kept that rifle. Plastic milk jugs & coffee cans were a 99% sure thing at 200yds. with it. Darn nice wood on that one, too. |
RE: Be Sensible!
When I first moved to Alaska, I was pretty ignorant (still am) and I asked the gun store guyy what a good rifle would be for hunting Alaska big game. He sold me a 300 RUM....I shot it 3 times and that was enough for me. I sold it. I have a 30-06 and that is about all I care to take. I am not a big guy so, after about 20 rounds of my 06, my shoulder is bruised, and I am flinching like a baby....But anyways, I know what its like to get started out with a gun that is way too big. That 300 RUM really kicked my but....still have a scar above my eye from a mishap with the scope!
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RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: StrutnBPS I agree. One of my friends took his g'f turking hunting two seasons ago. He called up a nice gobbler and she shot at it. As soon as she pulled the trigger, she threw the gun on the ground. She won't touch a gun now. With that said, she missed. I asked why he didn't buy her a 20ga. (this guy can more than afford it) or at least put a 2 3/4 shell in the gun. He said he didn't think it kicked that hard. To a MAN that has hunted all his life, it may not. I will admit that when I am shooting at game, I do not feel the recoil at all. But on paper, its a different picture. Talk about a turkey! What if that shotgun had been a fully loaded semiauto with a sensitive trigger! Who knows what would have happened when she threw it down???? |
RE: Be Sensible!
ORIGINAL: pig dog 02 When I first moved to Alaska, I was pretty ignorant (still am) and I asked the gun store guyy what a good rifle would be for hunting Alaska big game. He sold me a 300 RUM....I shot it 3 times and that was enough for me. I sold it. I have a 30-06 and that is about all I care to take. I am not a big guy so, after about 20 rounds of my 06, my shoulder is bruised, and I am flinching like a baby....But anyways, I know what its like to get started out with a gun that is way too big. That 300 RUM really kicked my but....still have a scar above my eye from a mishap with the scope! Said Captain went to the range,fired three shots from this beautiful piece, and quickly decided that his .243 was more to his liking. I bought the .375 from him for $125.00 cash on the spot! |
RE: Be Sensible!
Good story eldeguello....when were you at Wainwright? That is where I am stationed now...goin back there in a few months when my OIF deployment is over...I have driven the ALCAN twice now...what a trip!
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RE: Be Sensible!
Ryncam, the best way to work on the flinch is to have someone at the range working with you. How bad you are doing is really apparent when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber!
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RE: Be Sensible!
Ryncam,
If your hunting in thickly wooded areas like I am, it's my opinion that a 30-06 is more than you need. Don't misunderstand me, it's a fine triedcartridge, but as someone who dislikes recoil I don't feel it's worth enduring discomfort at the bench to ultimately take a deer that is going to be 10 to 100 yards away from you. My first centerfire deer rifle was a savage 110 .270 win and I have never before or since hated a gun as much as that one. A typical range session left me flinching, missing, and with a bruised shoulder. I endured this rifle from the time I was 15 until I was 22 when I picked up a sporterized Swedish Mauser. My performance at the range improved drastically. I've never shot a deer myself, so obviously take my advice with a grain of salt, but it doesn't seem like it matters much what you hit a deer with at close range (exluding .22 rimfires of course) if the bullet hits what it needs to, the animal will die. Once again, I have nothing against the 30-06 or even harder kicking classes of rifles. If the recoil doesn't bother you and you can shoot well with it, great. Personally, I shoot and hunt because it's fun. A rifle that hurts me, makes it less fun. |
RE: Be Sensible!
the recoil dont really bother me to much now that ive gotten bigger but im growing out of the flinch so this year im going to shoot more
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