22lr vs 17hmr
07-29-2005, 06:00 PM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
In the mean time check out Rimfire Central it is a great site for anything rimfire related. Most likely has some canadian members as well. I know there are some from Europe.
Paul
Paul
07-30-2005, 04:44 PM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
Ok, I finished my testing and found time to review the results and sort them into some sort of order. I am sorry I didn’t do it sooner, but my girlfriend came over with her kids. She feels I am ignoring her when I sit in front of the computer for hours at a time while she is here. Go figure?
First I will list how I did the test and what I used to do it. Then I will list the measurements. After that I will give my opinions based on the results I got with my equipment. Keep in mind this is not a highly scientific test, but one I feel is representative of average equipment most on a budget would be looking at. Someone else’s results might vary depending on the rifle and how it liked certain ammo.
I own two .22 rifles and last summer I decided to buy a butt load of ammo to see what each gun would prefer and shoot the best with. It ranges from subsonic target ammo to hyper velocity hollow points. I also compared it to my .17HMR shooting the 17grn hornady V-Max bullets.
First I will list how I did the test and what I used to do it. Then I will list the measurements. After that I will give my opinions based on the results I got with my equipment. Keep in mind this is not a highly scientific test, but one I feel is representative of average equipment most on a budget would be looking at. Someone else’s results might vary depending on the rifle and how it liked certain ammo.
I own two .22 rifles and last summer I decided to buy a butt load of ammo to see what each gun would prefer and shoot the best with. It ranges from subsonic target ammo to hyper velocity hollow points. I also compared it to my .17HMR shooting the 17grn hornady V-Max bullets.
07-30-2005, 04:53 PM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
What I used and how I went about it:
The primary shooting was done with a Marlin model 60 semi auto .22 you can get at any chain store. It has a 2-7x32 BSA target scope with an adjustable objective. I would consider this rifle an average performer. It has no trouble holding one inch or better groups with most ammo and functions flawlessly with anything I feed it. While the scope isn’t really high dollar, it’s not a POS either. I have had pretty good luck with BSA products as long as you get the better scopes in their line up. The optics are not the best, but they are plenty accurate. I also did some testing at the end with a Savage Mark II youth model. It has a shorter tapered barrel and a cheap bushnell 3-9x32 scope on it. The trigger is better than the Marlin though. The marlin has a fairly heavy crappy trigger pull to it, where as the savage has been modified and it is lighter and crisper.
The .17HMR is a Savage 93R17 with a bull barrel. It is basically the big brother to the Mark II .22 listed above. Pretty much the same action (based on the .22 magnum) and trigger assembly. The trigger on it has been lightened and shimmed as well. This rifle has an Alaskan Guide (cabela’s brand) 6.5-20x44 varmint scope with adjustable objective and mildot cross hairs.
The above .22 can probably be had for around $130 US in most cases minus the scopes and rings. The 17HMR is around $200 for the bull barrel blued. The stainless will cost more and the sporter version with tapered barrel and synthetic stock will be a bit less. I believe the Marlins are pretty much in the same price range. Both are incredibly accurate rifles out of the box. The biggest difference in the equipment is that the .17 has a $400 dollar scope on it instead of 50-100 dollar one like the .22’s do. You will see why later.
The testing was done off from an iron patio table and an Outfitter’s rifle rest. It was 80 degrees out with very little if any wind. Perfect day to be honest. I fired 3 rounds of each type of ammo at 50, 75 and 100 yards and measured the amount of drop of each. Basically I would shoot 3 rounds of a particular ammo then walk down range and mark the shots. Then walk back reload and repeat with a different brand and type of ammo until I went thru all seven. Then I moved the target back to 75 yards and repeated the process. After that I did the same thing at 100 yards. When I finished with that I played a little with a few of the brands to see how they grouped with six shot groups from the two rifles. When I was finished I brought the targets in, reviewed, measured and logged the results.
When I measured the drop I measured from the center of the 50 yards group to the center of the 75 and 100 yard groups. Not the point of aim. Not all the ammo impacted in the same spot in relationship to the point of aim. You would have to re-zero for different brands of ammo. My rifle is zeroed at 50 yards with Winchester Super X high velocity ammo. I did not use the Winchester ammo in this test because I didn’t have enough of it left over. It shoots very similar to the Federal Classic ammo any way.
I do not own a chronograph, so any of the velocities I list are advertised speeds, not measured by me. You will notice that in at least one case a faster rated ammo actually didn’t shoot as well as one a bit slower. My guess is the numbers are off if you actually measured it. The proof is in the pudding I always say. The .17HMR is rated at around 2550 fps, but most independent testing has shown it actually shoots closer to 2700 fps depending on the rifle.
The primary shooting was done with a Marlin model 60 semi auto .22 you can get at any chain store. It has a 2-7x32 BSA target scope with an adjustable objective. I would consider this rifle an average performer. It has no trouble holding one inch or better groups with most ammo and functions flawlessly with anything I feed it. While the scope isn’t really high dollar, it’s not a POS either. I have had pretty good luck with BSA products as long as you get the better scopes in their line up. The optics are not the best, but they are plenty accurate. I also did some testing at the end with a Savage Mark II youth model. It has a shorter tapered barrel and a cheap bushnell 3-9x32 scope on it. The trigger is better than the Marlin though. The marlin has a fairly heavy crappy trigger pull to it, where as the savage has been modified and it is lighter and crisper.
The .17HMR is a Savage 93R17 with a bull barrel. It is basically the big brother to the Mark II .22 listed above. Pretty much the same action (based on the .22 magnum) and trigger assembly. The trigger on it has been lightened and shimmed as well. This rifle has an Alaskan Guide (cabela’s brand) 6.5-20x44 varmint scope with adjustable objective and mildot cross hairs.
The above .22 can probably be had for around $130 US in most cases minus the scopes and rings. The 17HMR is around $200 for the bull barrel blued. The stainless will cost more and the sporter version with tapered barrel and synthetic stock will be a bit less. I believe the Marlins are pretty much in the same price range. Both are incredibly accurate rifles out of the box. The biggest difference in the equipment is that the .17 has a $400 dollar scope on it instead of 50-100 dollar one like the .22’s do. You will see why later.
The testing was done off from an iron patio table and an Outfitter’s rifle rest. It was 80 degrees out with very little if any wind. Perfect day to be honest. I fired 3 rounds of each type of ammo at 50, 75 and 100 yards and measured the amount of drop of each. Basically I would shoot 3 rounds of a particular ammo then walk down range and mark the shots. Then walk back reload and repeat with a different brand and type of ammo until I went thru all seven. Then I moved the target back to 75 yards and repeated the process. After that I did the same thing at 100 yards. When I finished with that I played a little with a few of the brands to see how they grouped with six shot groups from the two rifles. When I was finished I brought the targets in, reviewed, measured and logged the results.
When I measured the drop I measured from the center of the 50 yards group to the center of the 75 and 100 yard groups. Not the point of aim. Not all the ammo impacted in the same spot in relationship to the point of aim. You would have to re-zero for different brands of ammo. My rifle is zeroed at 50 yards with Winchester Super X high velocity ammo. I did not use the Winchester ammo in this test because I didn’t have enough of it left over. It shoots very similar to the Federal Classic ammo any way.
I do not own a chronograph, so any of the velocities I list are advertised speeds, not measured by me. You will notice that in at least one case a faster rated ammo actually didn’t shoot as well as one a bit slower. My guess is the numbers are off if you actually measured it. The proof is in the pudding I always say. The .17HMR is rated at around 2550 fps, but most independent testing has shown it actually shoots closer to 2700 fps depending on the rifle.
07-30-2005, 05:02 PM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
Here is what I found:
RWS Target Rifle 40grn 1080 fps
75 yard = -3”
100 yard = -7”
Remington Target 40grn 1150 fps
75 yard = -3”
100 yard = -8”
Federal Classic High Velocity 40grn 1260 fps
75 yard = -2”
100 yard = -6.5”
Remington Golden bullet HV 36grn HP 1280 fps
75 yard = -3.5
100 yard = -7.5
CCI Velocitor High Velocity+ 40grn HP 1450 fps
75 yards = -2”
100 yards = -4.5”
Aquila Super Max Hyper Vel. 30 grn HP 1750 fps
75 yards = 0
100 yards = Not measurable do to very large grouping
.17HMR Hornady V-Max 17grn v-max 2650-2700 fps
No drop at any distance that was measurable.
All of the rounds grouped fairly well at 50 yards, between 1-1.5 inches except for the Aguila Hyper velocity rounds. These were very poor performers in either of my rifles. The groups opened up considerably at 75 and 100 yards for most of the ammo. I did some group testing at 100 yards with the Marlin and Savage. I aimed at 1.5 inch circles and shot six shot groups of the 3 faster types of ammo. I used the Remington 36 grn, Velocitor 40 grn and Aguila 30 grn. All three are hollow points and advertise pretty decent speeds. I figure of the group I used this is what one might pick to actually hunt with.
The marlin averaged 4 inch groups at 100 yards with the CCI and Remington ammo. The Hypervelocity stuff was a joke. My target was on an 8x10 piece of printer paper, out of six rounds only two actually hit the paper, one at the top and one on the bottom. I measured about a 10 inch group. The Savage seemed to do a bit better. When I first got this rifle I was not too impressed. It did not group very well at all with any type of ammo. Now that I have used it some it is getting much better. It averaged 2.5 inch groups with the Remington ammo and seemed to really like the CCI Velocitor’s. It shot a real uniform 1 ¼ inch group with them. And that is with a crap 3-9 power 50 dollar scope. I bet with a better scope and a little work to the rifle it could do better. Again the Aguila was a poor performer, but a bit better at around 7 inches or so.
I did not shoot the .17HMR for groups, since the ammo is rather expensive I don’t want to use it up. I have shot it for groups before and it averages 1 inch or below at 120 yards on a calm day. And I will note that when I was testing for drop all nine shots from the .17 landed in one ragged hole that a dime will cover, all three yardages combined! Ok, I had one flyer that was ¼ inch outside of the group, so an over all group of just under an inch.
RWS Target Rifle 40grn 1080 fps
75 yard = -3”
100 yard = -7”
Remington Target 40grn 1150 fps
75 yard = -3”
100 yard = -8”
Federal Classic High Velocity 40grn 1260 fps
75 yard = -2”
100 yard = -6.5”
Remington Golden bullet HV 36grn HP 1280 fps
75 yard = -3.5
100 yard = -7.5
CCI Velocitor High Velocity+ 40grn HP 1450 fps
75 yards = -2”
100 yards = -4.5”
Aquila Super Max Hyper Vel. 30 grn HP 1750 fps
75 yards = 0
100 yards = Not measurable do to very large grouping
.17HMR Hornady V-Max 17grn v-max 2650-2700 fps
No drop at any distance that was measurable.
All of the rounds grouped fairly well at 50 yards, between 1-1.5 inches except for the Aguila Hyper velocity rounds. These were very poor performers in either of my rifles. The groups opened up considerably at 75 and 100 yards for most of the ammo. I did some group testing at 100 yards with the Marlin and Savage. I aimed at 1.5 inch circles and shot six shot groups of the 3 faster types of ammo. I used the Remington 36 grn, Velocitor 40 grn and Aguila 30 grn. All three are hollow points and advertise pretty decent speeds. I figure of the group I used this is what one might pick to actually hunt with.
The marlin averaged 4 inch groups at 100 yards with the CCI and Remington ammo. The Hypervelocity stuff was a joke. My target was on an 8x10 piece of printer paper, out of six rounds only two actually hit the paper, one at the top and one on the bottom. I measured about a 10 inch group. The Savage seemed to do a bit better. When I first got this rifle I was not too impressed. It did not group very well at all with any type of ammo. Now that I have used it some it is getting much better. It averaged 2.5 inch groups with the Remington ammo and seemed to really like the CCI Velocitor’s. It shot a real uniform 1 ¼ inch group with them. And that is with a crap 3-9 power 50 dollar scope. I bet with a better scope and a little work to the rifle it could do better. Again the Aguila was a poor performer, but a bit better at around 7 inches or so.
I did not shoot the .17HMR for groups, since the ammo is rather expensive I don’t want to use it up. I have shot it for groups before and it averages 1 inch or below at 120 yards on a calm day. And I will note that when I was testing for drop all nine shots from the .17 landed in one ragged hole that a dime will cover, all three yardages combined! Ok, I had one flyer that was ¼ inch outside of the group, so an over all group of just under an inch.
07-30-2005, 05:14 PM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
What I think:
After reviewing the results these are my opinions. With an average .22 I wouldn’t think small varmints at 75 yards or so would work to well. Not that it wouldn’t be fun, I just don’t know how successful you would be. Considering the groups I was getting at 75 and 100 yards you might hit one and you might not. And when you take into acount the amount of drop for your average high velocity round you had better be dead on about the range. You better know for sure if the target is 50, 75 or 100 yards away. For small animals that is a fairly large amount disparity in impact points. You better know the exact yardage and the proper amount of hold over for each. Of course setting our zero to 75 yards would help this some. You would be approximately 3 inches high at 50 and 4 inches low at 100. That would be point blank range for large game like deer, but not small critters that move a lot.
The velocitors seemed to be the best of both worlds to me. If you had a rifle that shot them pretty well they might work ok. And if you could get the hyper velocity rounds to work they would be great. From what I could tell there is little or no difference from 50 to 100 yards with them. However the groups are horrid and no where near good enough to hunt with. There are other brands you could try though. I looked on rimfire central.com and not to many have had very good luck with the hyper velocity ammo in the accuracy department.
Keep in mind there are rifles that shoot much better than this. Like I said, I consider my rifles to be average. I have owned better shooting rifles, and I have owned worse. I had a Henry lever action that would shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards most of the time off from a rest. And you could build a very accurate 10/22 if you wanted to. With .22’s in the $100- $200 US range sometimes you get one that shoots really well, sometimes you don’t. And some are very picky about the particular ammo you feed them. In my opinion in order to get a rifle that would ensure good groups at those distances you would be spending more than what you want to. And you would have to shoot fairly expensive ammo, the faster ammo like the high velocity+ (my term, meaning 1400 fps and above) and Hyper velocity ammo runs $3.00 and up for 50 rounds.
So in my Opinion if you are going to do that you might as well just a get a rifle more suited to your needs. Like a 17HMR, 17HM2 or the .22 mag. The 17HMR would be the most expensive to shoot, but the bet performer in bullet drop, accuracy and damage to game (depending on the ammo you select). I think the HM2, which is sort of like the hyper velocity rounds with a .17 caliber bullet would be next in line in price and possibly bullet drop ( I would have to check that to be sure). However the .22 mag is very easy to find ammo for and it has many different choices. Not to mention can be very accurate and would fair better in the wind because of the heavier bullets. The rifles all go for similar prices irregardless of caliber. And a really good scope would not hurt things either. And for not much more than that you could get single shot break open H&R Handi rifle in a centerfire caliber like .223 or 22-250. They are excellent performers for the price.
If you are sure your shots will be 75 yards and in, then I think a good .22 with the right ammo would work and be a blast to shoot. However if you think your shots might 75 yards and out I would save my money and get one of the better suited rifles. You won’t regret it I promise.
Well those are my opinions, do what you will with them. I highly recommend checking out Rimfircentral.com. It is a great site for anything rimfire and there are many there with much more knowledge about what you want to do then I do. From picking out your gear to actually shooting those little rats.
Good luck,
Paul
After reviewing the results these are my opinions. With an average .22 I wouldn’t think small varmints at 75 yards or so would work to well. Not that it wouldn’t be fun, I just don’t know how successful you would be. Considering the groups I was getting at 75 and 100 yards you might hit one and you might not. And when you take into acount the amount of drop for your average high velocity round you had better be dead on about the range. You better know for sure if the target is 50, 75 or 100 yards away. For small animals that is a fairly large amount disparity in impact points. You better know the exact yardage and the proper amount of hold over for each. Of course setting our zero to 75 yards would help this some. You would be approximately 3 inches high at 50 and 4 inches low at 100. That would be point blank range for large game like deer, but not small critters that move a lot.
The velocitors seemed to be the best of both worlds to me. If you had a rifle that shot them pretty well they might work ok. And if you could get the hyper velocity rounds to work they would be great. From what I could tell there is little or no difference from 50 to 100 yards with them. However the groups are horrid and no where near good enough to hunt with. There are other brands you could try though. I looked on rimfire central.com and not to many have had very good luck with the hyper velocity ammo in the accuracy department.
Keep in mind there are rifles that shoot much better than this. Like I said, I consider my rifles to be average. I have owned better shooting rifles, and I have owned worse. I had a Henry lever action that would shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards most of the time off from a rest. And you could build a very accurate 10/22 if you wanted to. With .22’s in the $100- $200 US range sometimes you get one that shoots really well, sometimes you don’t. And some are very picky about the particular ammo you feed them. In my opinion in order to get a rifle that would ensure good groups at those distances you would be spending more than what you want to. And you would have to shoot fairly expensive ammo, the faster ammo like the high velocity+ (my term, meaning 1400 fps and above) and Hyper velocity ammo runs $3.00 and up for 50 rounds.
So in my Opinion if you are going to do that you might as well just a get a rifle more suited to your needs. Like a 17HMR, 17HM2 or the .22 mag. The 17HMR would be the most expensive to shoot, but the bet performer in bullet drop, accuracy and damage to game (depending on the ammo you select). I think the HM2, which is sort of like the hyper velocity rounds with a .17 caliber bullet would be next in line in price and possibly bullet drop ( I would have to check that to be sure). However the .22 mag is very easy to find ammo for and it has many different choices. Not to mention can be very accurate and would fair better in the wind because of the heavier bullets. The rifles all go for similar prices irregardless of caliber. And a really good scope would not hurt things either. And for not much more than that you could get single shot break open H&R Handi rifle in a centerfire caliber like .223 or 22-250. They are excellent performers for the price.
If you are sure your shots will be 75 yards and in, then I think a good .22 with the right ammo would work and be a blast to shoot. However if you think your shots might 75 yards and out I would save my money and get one of the better suited rifles. You won’t regret it I promise.
Well those are my opinions, do what you will with them. I highly recommend checking out Rimfircentral.com. It is a great site for anything rimfire and there are many there with much more knowledge about what you want to do then I do. From picking out your gear to actually shooting those little rats.
Good luck,
Paul
07-30-2005, 07:27 PM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tahlequah, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,584
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
I would choose the 17hmr, been shooting one for a few years and they are excellent. I bought a Marlin 17vs, very accurate rifle and a pleasure to shoot. Itty bitty groups are the norm. Fixing to buy a Ruger in 17 I seen at work today (wal-mart).
08-01-2005, 02:19 PM
#18
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 74
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
Thanks for the help it gave me alot of good information.I now know not to buy aquila ammo since they are very inaccurate unless I was to shoot a close range haha. I think I will go for the 22lr in the mossberg plinkster.I will probly use CCI velocitors and CCI stingers.The reason for going with the 22lr is because you see me and my dad always go gopher hunting and have contests to see who can shoot the most gophers and whoever wins usually wins 5 or 10 bucks and my dad usually gets the money because he always beats me by just a few gophers, and when we go we always just use our old single shot cooeys with iron sights.This way I can't usually shoot accuratelly out past 30yards you see. and there are always a bunch of gophers at like 50-75yards so if I could just be able to shoot them then I could beat my dad more easily and have the fun of shooting at longer ranges. My dad also is looking to buy a new gun you see and if I don't he will for surely beat me he is going for the ruger 10/22 for he is older and has more money when I get mine I have to mow lawns all summer save up, thengive the money to him and then he buys it (since I am not old enough to purchase a rifle). I may be only 13 but I love hunting and guns more than anything.
I'll add on a picture of what I'm going to save up for, it is a mossberg plinkster black synthetic stock, stainless steel barrel, semi automatic, and I'm getting a bushnell 3-9x40 scope for it.
I'll add on a picture of what I'm going to save up for, it is a mossberg plinkster black synthetic stock, stainless steel barrel, semi automatic, and I'm getting a bushnell 3-9x40 scope for it.
08-01-2005, 02:31 PM
#19
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: western NY
Posts: 58
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
^thats a nice gun. Id say get the 10/22. probably a bit cheaper and i like how the clip on the 10/22 is flush with the stock so i can hold the rifle right there. My 10/22 had a tasco scope on it and is very accurate.Also you can get 25,30,and 50round mags for the 10/22. Youll be sure to beat your dad then!
08-02-2005, 10:58 AM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: 22lr vs 17hmr
How do you know that rifle will be any more accurate than the one you already have? I was going to suggest that you just get a good scope and put it on the one you have. However I looked up the name Cooey (never heard of that before) and all the ones I saw did not have a way to mount a scope. If yours does I would try a nice scope first and see how it shoots.
Even if you get new rifle, I would suggest another bolt action. They handle more abuse, tend to be more accurate and will most likely cost less. That and a good scope should help alot. And if you are talking about 75 yards shots I would consider a better scope with more power. Like a 4-16 power variable. Of course that might cost as much the rifle.
I'm not overly impressed with the 10/22's either. I think they are a bit over priced for what they are. They are highly upgradable which makes them desirable, but out of the box they are nothing special. I have seen some that were really good, and others that were crap. I would pick a bolt action or a Henry lever action over most of the autos any day. If you could swing it get one with a heavy barrel. Even a H&R single shot would work really well. Stay away from the Rossi guns though. They are pretty cheap.
Of those two ammo choices I would go with the velocitors. The stingers actually have a slightly longer case than most .22 shells and I have heard funny things about them. The Velocitors have a standard cartridge length. Also keep in mind these faster rounds beat on your rifle. Again, a bolt or lever gun would handle this better than an auto. If you are going to shoot a lot of high energy ammo out of an auto there a few things you should to it first.
Not that an auto can't be accurate, they can be. The bolt guns are just more versatile and easier to clean is all.
Another thing to consider is maybe your dad just shoots better than you do
.
My best advice though is at your age if you have a .22 rifle in your house that you can mount a scope on I would use that. Save your money and get a good scope with good mounts. It will do wonders for your long range shooting.
Also finding the right ammo for your rifle helps alot as well. If your rifle shoots well with the velocitors, that's fine. If it doesn't though they are of no benifit to you. You would be better of shooting a slower bullet that was more accurate at those ranges and compensating for the drop.
Good luck,
Paul
Even if you get new rifle, I would suggest another bolt action. They handle more abuse, tend to be more accurate and will most likely cost less. That and a good scope should help alot. And if you are talking about 75 yards shots I would consider a better scope with more power. Like a 4-16 power variable. Of course that might cost as much the rifle.
I'm not overly impressed with the 10/22's either. I think they are a bit over priced for what they are. They are highly upgradable which makes them desirable, but out of the box they are nothing special. I have seen some that were really good, and others that were crap. I would pick a bolt action or a Henry lever action over most of the autos any day. If you could swing it get one with a heavy barrel. Even a H&R single shot would work really well. Stay away from the Rossi guns though. They are pretty cheap.
Of those two ammo choices I would go with the velocitors. The stingers actually have a slightly longer case than most .22 shells and I have heard funny things about them. The Velocitors have a standard cartridge length. Also keep in mind these faster rounds beat on your rifle. Again, a bolt or lever gun would handle this better than an auto. If you are going to shoot a lot of high energy ammo out of an auto there a few things you should to it first.
Not that an auto can't be accurate, they can be. The bolt guns are just more versatile and easier to clean is all.
Another thing to consider is maybe your dad just shoots better than you do
.My best advice though is at your age if you have a .22 rifle in your house that you can mount a scope on I would use that. Save your money and get a good scope with good mounts. It will do wonders for your long range shooting.
Also finding the right ammo for your rifle helps alot as well. If your rifle shoots well with the velocitors, that's fine. If it doesn't though they are of no benifit to you. You would be better of shooting a slower bullet that was more accurate at those ranges and compensating for the drop.
Good luck,
Paul