Not your average AR thread
 

I spent a recent morning ranting about how everyone has jumped on the AR bandwagon, after seeing ARs with lasers in every color of the rainbow at the range. Being at the range, it seemed like each person holding an Evil Black Rifle wanted to be louder and faster than the man next to him. We couldn't even have targets out because of wind conditions, so each person was shooting at/into nothing but a dirt backstop.[:(!]

I went in the bathroom that morning, and came out finding myself on my way to pick up a lower. Don't ask.

My learning curve shot straight up as I realized what I had gotten myself into. This wasn't just a Lego set with instructions included, but it was for damn sure I wasn't quitting, I had to see what the hype was about.

The more I learned of variants, ballistics, theory, and history of the AR, it reminded me of a time I was at a gun show----

A grey-bearded Vietnam veteran turned armchair commando put a 30-06 bolt action, woodstock Springfield in my hands and asked if I was horny yet.

I didn't know how to say yes

But that's besides the point. I've spent the past week picking the brains of armorers and scouring the web on a versatile, relevant AR platform. I thought it was hard deciding how I would customize my 10/22, but building an AR? It doesn't even compare.

I feel as though not only are AR pistols for simple-minded people, but a waste of a lower. I get that a lot of what goes into building an AR is personal preference, but only a fool prefers a Fiat over GMC.

The only thing holding me back right now is not being able to decide on a barrel length. An armorer told me that a 16" fluted barrel is the way to go, with a muzzle.
I liked the one he handed me, but will 16" make a huge difference in range/accuracy? My original plan was to go 18" bull with a fore grip that has the bipod that pops out, with an acog scope. Now I'm thinking of a 16" fluted with an angled grip and holographic/red dot. In a combat/SHTF scenario, I'd like to be able to rapidly acquire targets, and save anything past 500 yards for a bolt action rifle. I don't want this AR to have such a heavy barrel with a scope that requires you to be steady and seated at a table. I'd like to be able to walk around wilderness comfortably with it slung around my back, not too long or bulky to maneuver, but won't leave me outgunned. Call me a prepper, I just don't want to shell out thousands on a platform I will end up not liking.

An armorer did say not to make an AR that does everything, because it will become boring to shoot. I'm not too sure of the difference between .223 and 5.56, my thinking was that a .223 cartridge is like a 4 cylinder Sonoma while the 5.56 is an 8 Cylinder Sierra. I was told .223 was more of a long range cartridge, with 5.56 being an 80 down the barrel in one sitting cartridge.

Tell me why your AR is better than everyone else's, and what platform you'd reccomend to me.

Simple... don't limit yourself to a single upper.

Many folks find themselves feeling overwhelmed when they decide to build their first AR. Buying a factory model first has its advantages, as it allows you to get familiar with the internal mechanical functions, which makes it far easier to understand how to assemble and tune one.

Don't let a high parts count discourage you, AR's go together relatively quickly and easily. I can put one together from parts in under an hour, and if I can do it, then there's really nothing super complicated about it.

The only important parts in an AR, in order:

1) Good Barrel (Black Hole Weaponry, White Oak Armament, Shilen)

2) Good Trigger (mil-spec + JP yellow springs + 37cent 1/4"x28x1/2" set screw, RRA NM 2 stage, or Geiselle SSA or NM 2 stage)

3) Adjustable Gas Block (clamp on style JP or BTE)

Everything else is personal preference and won't affect function.

I think a lot of folks buy 16" barrels planning on being some war movie action hero, but then quickly find themselves disillusioned about the handling.

Balance: Many folks will find that 16" barrels don't balance or handle as well in hand. They feel nice, light, and handy in the store because the center of balance is between your hands, but then reality sets in when you get to the range is that the lack of forward mass makes it more difficult to steady on target. The difference in accuracy between different barrel lengths is about stability, not about anything inherent to the barrel itself. 16" Carbines can shoot well, but by and large, all shooters will be more accurate with a bit more muzzle weight (barrel length).

Weight & Fluting: A 16" fluted barrel makes absolutely no sense unless you're talking about a .920" or .836" gas block, or just want your rifle to look fancy. Fluting is only meant to let a larger diameter, stiffer barrel weigh less - a .750" barrel is plenty muzzle light, especially a 7" carbon length gas system - and a 16" barrel is plenty stiff. The extra surface area will mean absolutely nothing for a .750" in terms of cooling. Fluting looks cool, but the functionality is nearly useless.

Power: AR's tend to give up about 50fps per inch of barrel loss. A 20" AR will run around 200fps faster than a 16". It might not seem like much, but at it's tipping point, it does tend to make a difference in killing power at range.

RIFLE weight: The difference in weight on shoulder and portability for a 16" carbine and a 20" rifle with a collapsible stock really isn't much. Stretching out to 22" or 24" - or longer - will start getting outside the frame of your body enough that it becomes a bit more unweildy. Compared to bolt guns AR's are heavy, period. You have to try VERY hard and use pencil barrels and light weight components to get a 16-18" AR to weigh as little as a 24" bolt rifle.

If you want a CQB Entry rifle, slap on a carbine stock, never open it, stick your nose on the charging handle, learn to shoot with a ~9" LOP, slap on a 16" barrel, and go spray surplus ammo at nothing all day. If you want a versatile rifle, get a different barrel length.

In general, my experience has been that an 18" or 20" barrel will have the ideal mix of handling/balance and power. Throw a carbine stock on it and you'll have a very portable rifle.

It sounds like you have been mislead - your comment that a barrel would get so heavy that you'd have to sit at a bench to stabilize is backwards. Again, extra muzzle weight helps shooters stabilize on target.

If you "shell out thousands [of dollars]" on an AR-15 Carbine, you've done something wrong. Great quality carbines can be bought off of the shelf or built for $500-600. Only the top end competitive rifles cost "thousands". My 5 most recent custom rifle builds have been $1000-1500, my wife's upcoming "Cadillac build" will be $1900 with no expense spared on top end components ($500 on barrel alone). Carbines are cheap.

Think about this logically - how does this make sense at all? The rifle that "does everything" will get used to DO everything, so you'll find yourself shooting it more. A rifle that only does ONE THING will end up sitting in the safe more - and frankly, I get pretty d@mn bored watching my rifles sitting in the safe.

The difference in 223rem and 5.56 Nato is highly over-rated, and is largely irrelevant for AR's in our time. The major difference is in the length of the throat, with no other significant chamber dimension differences. The pressure differential between the two is 100% irrelevant in factory ammo, and only the most irresponsible reloader will ever cross an unsafe pressure boundary with either cartridges load data. Beyond that, Almost all modern produced AR barrels are chambered for either 5.56 or .223Wylde - essentially a 223rem chamber with a 5.56 throat - so you really have to look to get a pure 223rem.

The statement that one is a 4cyl and one is an 8cyl is just foolish. 5.56 and 223wylde throats allow loading of longer and heavier bullets, but the differential in power is minimal at best. If anyone ever tells me that they notice a real difference between the two in the field, I tend to cross them off of the "knows what they're talking about" list.

The 223wylde chamber will safely and accurately shoot either 5.56 or 223rem.

You would have to selectively order a 223rem (pure SAAMI) chambered AR barrel. The point is moot.

I wouldn't ever say that my AR's are better than anybody elses, since AR's are AR's. But the practical versatility of many of my AR's is very high - they're very useful and usable rifles.

What I have found to be the most "useful" and most "practical" AR-15 is an 18" or 20" barrel with a .750" adjustable gas block in 5.56/223wylde and a heavy profile under the handguard, with a telescoping stock.

If you want a powder burner, then buy a Del-ton kit or a Bushmaster or DPMS carbine off of the shelf for $500 and go spend the rest of your money on surplus ammo.

If you want a functional and practical rifle, spend about $900 at Midway, Brownells, PSA, or Joebob Outfitters and $300 on a Black Hole Weaponry Barrel and be happy.

In my mind, I see a AR-15 set-up for close quarters (under 100 yards) OR a "hunting rifle" (beyond 100 yards).

Each require much different set-ups.

The decision is, what is the purpose of YOUR AR-15 ?

If you're really wanting something for CQB, then pay the NFA stamp and get an 11" barrel, and wrangle up a select fire receiver. But again, the reality is that most of us will die of old age before we ever need a CQB rifle - there ain't folks in Baltimore standing in their front doors shooting folks with their prepping rifles, and it doesn't get much worse than that in our modern times. Build a battle carbine and you'll have a lot of fun burning powder at the range - a perfectly reasonable and respectable pursuit - but 2-4" extra barrel doesn't hurt you much for portability, but DOES tend to help out a lot in terms of functionality.

I'll also offer this advice, from a non-prepper to a prepper... If you're from the "wilderness area" you describe, then great, but if you're from a city, I'll offer this as a warning. "When SHTF and you bug out to the mountains" you should realize that there are already hillbillies like Ridge Runner out there that are REALLY HANDY with their rifles, so anything you carry into THEIR territory is nothing more than a donation.

Much love, brother Ridge - just had to take an opportunity as it came along ;)

Every single one of my rifles are SHTF rifles. Cause if the SHTF, my old a$$ is heading for the hills. I have 3 AR's, 1 AR10 in 7mm-08, 2 AR15's in 6.8spcII and .458SOCOM. they are my "Hogs and Dogs" rifles. (Coyote and Hogs). And if by some stupid twist of fate I ever had to use any for "combat" I am sure the 2 15's would suffice quite well.

Nomercy has given you great advice that I couldn't expand on if I wanted to. I've seen a few of the rifles he has built over the years and he knows his stuff better than a lot of other folks. As far as CQB goes, thats what my .45's and 9mm's are for :)

I was told to look into a 20" A4 clone, I like the concept, saving my handguns for CQB, and bolt actions for long distance. What do you think of a battle rifle, and how much difference does a free floating barrel make/when is it nesecary

Under 100 yards, rapid target acquisition.

I don't know about all that Sheridan. My 6.8 has an 18 inch Shilen on it. I would not hesitate to take a 200 yard shot any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I could probably, with a bit of practice, stretch that out to 300. I can also tell you without a single doubt that close up and personal is a bad day for anything in it's sight. Killed a lot of hogs with that AR and several were no more than 10 or so feet away.

how often do you not see a FF tube on a modern AR?
RR

Why in particular did your advisor recommend the A4 clone to you?

Based on what you have described, I don't believe that the A4 clone has any distinct advantage to offer you over any other 20" model. The A2 stock isn't collapsible, and it's relatively bulky, and the A2 sight isn't an advantage if you're planning a red-dot or telescoping optic. The clamshell, non-free float forend is a disadvantage as well. If you're wanting a flip-up set of BUS's, then the A2 gas block/sight isn't an advantage.

There are a million variations of a 20" AR-15 to choose from, I wouldn't say that I think an A4 clone has any real advantage over many other models, other than it's relatively cheap (A2 stock, mil-spec trigger, cheap flash hider, cheap clamshell forend, cheap front sight/gas block), and it does have specific disadvantages.

I personally only have one AR that is not free floated, and I've considered many times doing a FF conversion to it. The only reason that ONE is not free floated is because it's an M4A2 - a rifle that I wanted to be true to form. For all other purposes, the free float forend is worth owning. I had a DPMS Lo-Pro Classic for a time that was a VERY accurate rifle, as long as I shot it free recoil from a rest. Any pressure on the forend from different shooting positions or bipods would string my shots all over the target. I converted it over to a DPMS Sweet 16 float tube and completely eliminated that problem.

If you're planning on a vertical foregrip, especially with a bipod, then I'd highly recommend that you use a free-float forend. You'll be putting variable forces upon the forend from different shooting positions, whether it's downward and rearward tension when firing off hand, or upward pressure when firing off of the bipod. If you're shooting off hand with a supporting sling, you'll be intermittently producing lateral pressure on the forend... All of those variable pressures and tensions will be drawing against a 12" leverarm that is the forward mount for the forend if you don't use a free-float forend.

I'd also make the recommendation that you take a look at the angled foregrips, like the Magpul AFG2. It's actually much more comfortable for shooting positions, and gives better control on the rifle when carried low ready.

If I was only interested in a close quarter gun I'd use a 12 gauge short barreled shotgun with an extended tube - I guess that's my point.

My AR is set up for multi-target acquisition up to 300 + yards !

16" would be more than fine with FF fore end and full length rail - angled grip (or broom handle , if you'd like) - red dot, laser or holographic scope; light is a given.


Night "hunting" is another whole world :arms:

http://nvdepot-px.rtrk.com/


Go have some fun - bring plenty of ammo !!! :kt:

If you're really only shooting 100yrds, then I'd agree with Sheridan's suggestions for optics. An open-style red dot or holographic sight is likely your best option. I'm personally prone to lean towards more versatile options, meaning a low magnification scope or an open holo sight with a magnifier, such that if I needed to shoot further than 100, I have that option. The advantage to an open red dot or holo instead of a scope being the open view of the field around the optic, whereas the disadvantage is that the precision on the dot is not as great as a crosshair. If you're handy with open sights, then you can save a lot of money by skipping the optics altogether - 100yrds or less on coyotes or larger targets really isn't asking much.

So maybe "what do you want to be able to hit?" should be the next question? If you're shooting itty bitty targets at 100yrds, magnification helps a lot. If you're shooting cardoors at 300yrds, then there's less expectation for precision.