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Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

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Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

Old 03-25-2008, 08:49 PM
  #11  
c j
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

I don't think Weatherby chambering the 220 swift would do much for its popularity, unless they opted to do so at the expense of the 22-250. Even then, that probably wouldn't do much. The rest of the manufacturers would need todo the same.

I don't quite understand why the swift isn't more popular already. Seems to do what the 204 and 22-250 do only better, IMO.

The 223 is so inexpensive and widely available that I would guess it will always be the most popular. I can't see any of the other centerfire 'varmint rounds'ever really competing with the 223, sales-wise.
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:11 PM
  #12  
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

Agreed CJ, I believe the .220 swift was around before either. How a newer .22-250 was marketed and ended up beating out the .220, while offering less performance I will not understand. Sure the .223 will sell more, being a miliatry round and all, aside from that not really sure why someone would want a .223 over a .22-250 or .220swift.

Less you get a cheap rifle in it used military rifle or something. Cheaper ammo? How much is a box of .223? .22-250?

I'm just going to have to start my own rifle company like weatherby, and I'll only chamber the .220swift, and put my name on the box too. What else should I have in my proprietary line? I think .220 swift and 6mm Rem cover the .223 and .243 calibers, what else?
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:11 PM
  #13  
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

PS- nice goat, what state? how big was he?
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Old 03-25-2008, 11:33 PM
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

I can tell you how it got beat out of the market.The old rifles that it was chambered in burned the barrels out really fast so it got that rap tagged on it a long time ago.I have had mine for about 6 years and I do reload for it.It out did my 22-250 pretty easy.

The problem is also in todays market there is no cheap .220 ammo out there.Most manufactures dont chamber it and it looks like ruger dropped it from there list.Thats a shame some people dont know what they are missing.

As far as it being the king of varmint rifles,I would agree with that,Here is the saying its almost as good/fast as the .220 swift.I agree the .223 sells the most but,the specs dont lie! I think if you are talking it down --you havent experinced it yet.
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:52 AM
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

The .220 Swift will remain a specialist's tool for those in the know.Not for the average recreational shooter.Same asthe AI calibers.................Harold
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:34 AM
  #16  
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

ORIGINAL: salukipv1

PS- nice goat, what state? how big was he?
Thanks! Got him here in South Dakota. Unofficial B&C measurement was just under 76 with deductions. Not the longest horns; about 13.5" on each side, but he had good prongs (roughly 5 1/4 - 1/2") and circumference (over 6 1/2").


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Old 03-26-2008, 01:22 PM
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

yea I noticed those prongs, and mass, esp down low. Is that big/huge for South Dakota? Common? Public land was he taken? How is the public land there?

probably going to wyoming this year to take a monster or two! been putting in for a few years, hunted eastern MT last year, and Wy the year before, though Wy was a 100% draw area, but both shot 65" +/-

This year if we draw, the area is said to be known for B&C, so anything mid 70's + would be awesome, then of course putting in for AZ and NM, though I hear AZ you odds are higher that youll draw a desert bighorn than a antelope! put in for bow there though. NM, is kinda a crapshoot I think. Would like to find a place to hunt antelope every 1-3years, maybe a coupole of spots to , though I'd like to take other game not just antelope, and taking more than 1 hunt out west a year is tough for me.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:37 PM
  #18  
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

ORIGINAL: salukipv1

yea I noticed those prongs, and mass, esp down low. Is that big/huge for South Dakota? Common? Public land was he taken? How is the public land there?
I'm not overly experienced, as far as the speed goats go - I've only been hunting them a few years - so take my opinion for what it's worth, I guess. I think he's pretty good for out where I hunt(NW corner of SD).Again, not the tallest or widest - I have seen several that are 14" + and have bigger spreads - but I haven't yetseen any others with the girth or the big prongs like he has. Most of the big goats I've seen have been pretty thin.

Yep, he was on public land. A lot of the land out there is either owned/run by the Bureau of Land Management or is privately owned, but designated 'walk-in' land that's open to public hunting. There's quite a few goats out there, but they sure wise up to which land is public and which is posted real quick. And thewalk-in land can be kind of brutal if you decide to shoot something over a mile into it and then you have to drag it all the way back out.


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Old 03-26-2008, 07:18 PM
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift

drag it a mile? haha, may I suggest a pack frame! But I always say, shoot it, worry about getting it home later!
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:21 PM
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Default RE: Weatherby should adopt the .220 Swift


ORIGINAL: salukipv1

Agreed CJ, I believe the .220 swift was around before either. How a newer .22-250 was marketed and ended up beating out the .220, while offering less performance I will not understand. Sure the .223 will sell more, being a miliatry round and all, aside from that not really sure why someone would want a .223 over a .22-250 or .220swift.
Here comes a history lesson... this isn't preaching, I know from our PMs salukipv1 that you like to know the background and why behind things... its a good perspective to have if you ask me.

Winchester was the company who made the 220 swift legit, infact, they developed it as a wildcat themselves. Ironically, the cartridge that now trumps the .220 Swift on the open market (the .22-250) was very very nearly the .220 Swift itself. Some of the original wildcats that Winchester expiramented with were infact .224 bullets loaded in .250-3000 necked-down cases. Winchester was all set to go with the .220 Swift, but for some reason decided to use the 6mm Lee Navy case instead. The .220 Swift was introduced in 1935.

So what happened to that good idea that Winchester ALMOST turned into the .220 Swift?

Back then, the .22-250 was known as the .22 Varminter. The official birthday of ithe cartridge as a wildcat is listed as 1937, but if you take into account that Winchester was playing with a variant of it when they were developing the Swift, you could make an argument that the .22-250 is actually senior, or at least the same age. But, as you pointed out, from a commercial/open market standpoint, the Swift is older.

The .22-250 was considered a wildcat until 1963, when someone at Browning made a right bold career move and decided to offer commercial production in a rifle that had ZERO commercially/factory loaded ammunition available (that is of historical note for the gun nut, because it's unprecidented). They sold a lot of them too. Remington took notice, and in 1965 offically legimized the cartridge as the .22-250 Rem and offered factory loaded ammunition for it, as well as building a 700 and a 40 rifle to go along with it.



Now, for business/market/economics class (applied history mixed with common sense):

In response to how the .22-250 became more popular than the .220 Swift, DANTHEHUNTER really gave you the nuts and bolts of the answer. That is the WHAT HAPPENED part anyway... what I am going to address is the WHY IT HAPPENED part of the puzzle (which is what you are going to ask anyway salukipv1... am I right? )

As you pointed out, the .220 Swift does outperform the .22-250. How much depends on which two loads you are comparing. Looking at Hodgdon, in lighter bullets (40gr) they are neck and neck, with the .22-250 even outperforming the .220 Swift in some instances. Where the .220 Swift shines is with heavier bullets and greater powder charges. Here, it can outperform the .22-250 by as much as 75-100 fps (thats just whats printed on paper, individual results have shown it can be much more). That of course, is due to the case capacity advantage the Swift has over the .22-250. However, that is the entire reason that the Swift got its reputation as a barrel burner. I'm going to try and put this in simple terms, but its hard to do, so please forgive me if this comes out as condiscending or seems as if I'm talking down to you... I'm not...

Take a look at the 300 Win Mag as compared to the 300 WSM. They are a relatively decent example of the .220 Swift as compared to the 22-250 (performance and designwise anyway). The WSM accomplishes equal or nearly equal velocities with LESS case capacity (and subsequently less powder) by redesigning how the powder burns inside the case. Basically, Winchester made the cartridge more efficient by shortening the case, and putting a much steeper angle on the shoulder. This knowledge/technology has been around for years and was the nuts and bolts behind P.O. Ackley's two volume set, and the great line of wildcats that still bear his name.

Powders, in the day of the Swift, did not burn as fast as they do today, not without creating a lot of pressure. The sloped case neck of the Swift, which came from its 6mm Lee Army parent case, is the whole reason that it was given the label as a barrel burner. Rather than retaining the still burning powder in the brass case, the last of the powder burned in the throat of the rifle. That, coupled with bullet making technology of the day which left a lot more copper residue in barrels (copper of course is an excellent conductor of ..... you guessed it... heat) greatly reduced the life of barrels. In comparison, the .22-250 has a 28 degree case neck (which is pretty sharp, sharper than most Ackley Improved cases even). That helped to keep the powder burning inside the case, which GREATLY prolonged barrel life. Because its more efficient, it is also cheaper to load/reload, and to shoot. Its case design also makes it more versitle, performing well at both lower and higher velocities and with everything from 40 to 60 grain bullets.

Varmint hunting, which was and is of course the main use of the Swift, is often a high volume shooting sport, requiring several shots to be fired in tandem in certain situations. The Swift's case/design does not lend itself well to this sort of usage. Today of course, barrels are better made, powders are faster burning, bullets are better made, and the average shooter is more educated. But a bad reputation (such as being a barrel burner) is like crabgrass... its hard to get rid of.


I'm just going to have to start my own rifle company like weatherby, and I'll only chamber the .220swift, and put my name on the box too. What else should I have in my proprietary line? I think .220 swift and 6mm Rem cover the .223 and .243 calibers, what else?
I don't think you'll be able to claim those cartridges as proprietary.

And just as a fun trivia question, and especially as a Weatherby-phile like you are:

What was the first non-proprietary cartridge that Roy Weatherby chambered in the Mark V? (meaning first "non-weatherby" cartridge)?
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