SwampCollie

Same to you Pavo. I've read several of your posts, and agree with most of what you say. I think that we likely would agree on lots of things, but the paradox of the internet is that people take written words lots of different ways. There are plenty of misunderstanding had all the time. I suspect that this was likely sort of the same thing. Glad we could come to a peaceful end here. Best to you.

PAhunter86

If I remember correctly from my classes, you need to shoot 2 rounds nearly instantly to cause hyrdostatic shock and instant death. Although, we were talking about military weapons. No one with a bolt action could shoot as fast as semi and still make a well placed shot. I don't know if certain hunting rounds can cause hydrostatic shock, but that's just what I learned. However in my class we were primarly talking about 5.56mm FMJ rounds.

TJEN

[quote]ORIGINAL: Pavomesa

TJEN - Anaphylactic shock has nothing to do with bullets. It's a severe allergic reaction some people have to certain things, like bee stings or food allergies.

And I'm thinking you haven't shot many 22/250s. I own one and have shot it (and my brother's 220 Swift) with all weights of bullets and I've NEVER had one come apart due to air resistance. That's an old wive's tale.quote]

Yes I stand corrected its Hemmorrhagic Shock thats caused by the drop in blood press. Soldiers andtrama victoms don't die from eating nuts when shot.

But read your reloading manuals please, I don't recall if it is Speer's or Hornady's but the state that with some of their bullets designed for the hornet and like cartridges are not suitable for the higher velocity cartridges like the 22-50 and 220 swift do to their jackets not being thick enough to handle the rotational and arrodynamic stresses impossed by them. And yes they do come apart in the air. Even the Speer mag tip was designed do to the standard hot core spitzers exposed lead tip was deforming and became a small round nose atthe highervelocities acheived by magnums.

This Velocity vrs momentum is not a new arguement its is just to learn from history as to when which one is superior, and matching it to the taskat hand. But do to in correct advertising and lack of understanding some will just use only velocity or momentum all the time.

Bullet design and how it performs is all important in taking game. My favorite bullets are Partitions/Accubonds/Interlocks/Corelokts. My favorite cartridges are 35whelen, 358win, 35rem, 270win, 222rem, and 22LR (Eley EPS). I plant someday to get a M84 in 7mm08 and a CZin 22hornet, but that 5.6x27? seem like it should be neet.

Pavomesa

Tjen, I used to do a lot of screwy things with bullets years ago when I had the time, place and equipment. During that period I had various bullet jackets and a set of custom made forming dies to build my own jacketed bullets in .224 diameter. After I grew bored with building conventional shape and weight bullets, I began experimenting with the "bizarre." I made bullets up to 62 grains weight and down as light as 26 grains. The heavier bullets were boring. However, the lighter bullets were very, very interesting as velocities went up. My final idea was to see just how open I could leave the hollow point cavity. I pushed this limit to the point that my bullets were hidiously ugly things and looked almost like little hollow base wadcutters loaded backwards.

But the amazing thing was they shot very well. Never had anything come apart and Iused my crazy bullets in everything from my K Hornet up to my brother's 220 Swift. Lord knows what velocities I ran some of the stuff at. When these bizarre hollow points of mine hit a jackrabbit or something it looked as if I just shot a feather pillow. You could hear a "POP" when they hit like someone clapped their hands and a cloud of fur and small body parts would drift away from the impact sight. Damage to the target was unbelievable.

However, NOTHING ever came apart in flight. Granted it was about as explosive on impact as one could ask for. And I don't doubt that a thin jacketed bullet and crazy twist combination could be created that would destroy a bullet...but I suspect it would be virtually destroyed before it ever left the muzzle and not just suddenly decide to self-destruct somewhere down range. I'd have to see that one to believe it.

I've also been known to shoot the little 60 grain .25 caliber bullet that was designed for the 256 pistol and load it in my .257 Roberts at close to 4,000fps. Once again this bullet shot fine and only exploded on impact.

Finally, I once tried a box of 90 gr bullets for a .30 Luger in my 30/06. Again.........nothing came apart. They weren't very accurate and as they were FMJ's I wasn't interested in seriously messing with them and dropped this line of silliness.

Theoretically I'm sure you are correct. Perhaps some of the bullet makers have created such a phenomenon with some combination. Let me just say that I have never found any crazy combination of bullets loaded in anything that would duplicate this notion...........and I have really tried to do just that. I hope now you understand my skepticism.

TJEN

The US Amy had a study comissioned by I think The Univery of Wissconsin. One study thought the temporary wound cannal was the most letal (hydrostatic shock) and later it was disproven and the true finding was the preminent wound cannal is what matters which leans to bigger any heavier reather than lighter and faster bullest for living targets. Living tussue absorbs tramendis amounts of shock and rebounds back, there not lumps of clay or geleton, but very elastic.

The 5.6 or 223rem has a newer more one shot letal cartridge its the 6.8mm. And incombat with insergents/terroist expanding bullets are used to inhanse DRT performance. The hornady 277 cal 110gr varmitHP was used or is? It actual acts as a mussrooming softpoint not the explosive varmit type you would expect. The FMJ applies for enemies who comply with the Geniva Convention.
I may be corrected some but the basic concepts apply( names of studies etc..)

TJEN

Pavomesa

I think you'l find I am not argueeing with ya and I did miss state something.

If I shot over 350-400yrdsmight get a magnum. With the 270 and whelen I can take any game in N. Americaand I can hand taylor either the 358win or 35rem for any other big and conditions. The 35rem gets 200grCLRN@ 2200fps and it hits very hard with in 150yards. The 358win gets either a 200gr spirepoint @ 2490fps or a 225gr partiton @ 2430fps

One very interresting thingI use to do was when armer priecing 06 ammo was cheep and obtainable. We would shoot up any free metal targets like engines, freezers, axles. The limit was 3/8 cold rolled steel some would exit but a lot would just stick. The old 30-06 accelerator 22 cal 55gr bullets at 4000fps did 100% penitrate it. I would not use them on a elk/deer or Light Armored transport but they did work. And my eight inch thick sand backstop stopped any and all bullets ever shot into it. We had a hill behind but did not want any want any rickasha's? if a bullet didn't dig into the hill.

CalHunter

I'm glad everybody decided to finally get along. It took a lot of time to edit out all of the insults and I'm sure I missed some. If you notice some of your posts are missing, then they violated HNI rules by insulting another member. You can argue about the subject and facts but you are not allowed to insult each other. If anybody has any questions, they are free to PM or email me.
CalHunter
Moderator

zrexpilot

If you dont believe in hydro shock, shoot an empty can of paint and then shoot a full one, and then tell me there is no such thing as hydro shock.
A 22-250 will do more damage to the internals of a deer than a slow moving .45. I guarantee it. Buuuuuttttt.......a .45 will outpenetrate a 22-250 on tough thick skinned animals like a hog.

Pavomesa

Anyone really interested in doing some technical reading about "Hydrostatic Shock" or "Hydrodynamic Shock" if you prefer can find plenty to entertain you here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

I get the impression it's a subject not even all the so called experts agree upon. Whatever they want to call it, there is certainly something going on from the entrance wound to the exit wound and beyond even. Most of us have seen the vast spray of blood and body parts beyond animals that clearly prove SOME sort of "wave" or "force" was in motion as the bullet exited the off side.

devil dog

stubblejumper, some reading for you!,http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/October05.htm, tells about velocity change in barrel lengths. Since we both agrea that shot placement has a great deal to do with an animal expireing, bullet performance has a bit to do with it, well mabe we can agrea on the wrong selection of cartridges, or loading a cartridge useing the information for a 26" barrel loading for an 18" barrel will have an effect on it also!
The firearm that its shot from also changes the effect, 16" bbl, 18" bbl, 22" bbl, 26" bbl, if thecartridge designed "reloaded"to be shot from a 26" barrel "per manual test barrel", exterior ballistics will change dramaticly if shot from a 16" bbl and the hydrostatic shock will be lessoned greatly
Yes, for you, I editted the poor choice of words and will edit the original!, but I still say, shot placement is the most important!.