Gun Safes
 

Not sure where to post a question about safes, but this seems appropriate enough?

I am looking to invest in a gun safe mostly for fire protection and safe storage from children. I like the extra features such as a gun rack on the interior of the door, adjustable shelving and a little extra height for extra storage. I would like to keep my bow and other valuables in it besides just guns, so theft prevention is also consideration.

I would like to hear opinions onanything youcare to share to help me withmy research and decision; fromthe various brands, tocombination dials vs. digital keypad, and your experience with the different types ofaccessories such as dehumidifiers.

If you have agun safe and have an opinion please let mehear about it.

So far I have checked out a few sporting stores with brands like Browning etc... and I have looked online at the Browning website and Cabelas Website. I have about $1200 to budget at this point, but would hold off and save more if it meant better features or a brand or model that shined above the rest (I don't need the best, just something that will get the job done).

Without being too specific... at this point in time I would need room for less than 10 handguns and 10 long guns, but am also thinking about room for future growth in investment opportunities.

Thanks,

J

RE: Gun Safes
 

Check out FORT KNOXX safes. There upper level safes have one of the best fire ratings on the market. Take notice of the weight of their Titan series safes...incredibly heavy. Have some friends who are arson/fire investigators who say the higher fire ratings DO make a difference, as opposed to the marginal safes. The Fort Knox safes are not cheap, but I suppose you get what you pay for. Besides if they protect your valuables and enable them to survive a potentially disasterous fire it was money well spent.

RE: Gun Safes
 

You don't buy a Safe cause it's pretty or hownice it looks! You buy it by the label rating!


Safe Ratings
Burglary Ratings
[ul][*]B1 — Theft resistant (minimum security)[*]B2 — Underwriters’ Laboratories Residential Security Container label[*]B3 — Non-rated anti-theft (incorporates features of high security safes
without a UL rating)[*]B4 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-15 label[*]B5 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30 label[*]B6 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30X6 or TRTL-30 label [/ul]Fire Ratings
[ul][*]FR — Fire resistant unrated insulated safe[*]1/2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 30 minutes with outside temperature of 1550 degrees.[*]1 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with outside temperature of 1700 degrees.[*]1 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with an outside temperature of 1700 degrees, plus survived drop test from 30 feet.[*]2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with an outside temperature of 1850 degrees.[*]2 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with outside temperature of 1850 degrees, plus survived drop test onto rubble from 30 feet [/ul]UL Underwriters' Laboratories (UL) - UL is a non-profit, non-bias agency that tests and rates the safety and performance of consumer products. Safes that have earned specific UL ratings will carry a UL label which designates the product's security and fire-protection ratings.
[ul][*]Net Working Time - This is the UL term for testing time which is spent trying to break into a safe using tools such as diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure applying devices, or common hand tools such as hammers, chisels, saws, and carbide-tip drills. If a safe has been rated with a 30-minute net working time, (TL30), the rating certifies that the safe successfully withstood a full 30 minutes of attack time with a range of tools.[*]Theft resistant - This rating means the safe provides a combination lock and minimal theft protection.[*]Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.[*]TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.[*]TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.[*]TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.[*]TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices. [/ul]Fire Ratings
[ul][*]Impact test - The UL impact test calls for the safe to be heated to 1550 degrees for 30 minutes (1638 degrees for a 2-hour fire rated safe) then dropped onto concrete rubble from a height of 30 feet. The safe is then turned upside down and reheated for another 30 minutes (45 minutes for a 2-hour fire rated safe). During this process, it must maintain its integrity and protect all contents in order to pass the UL impact test.[*]Explosion hazard test - All UL fire-rated safes must undergo this test, during which the unit is inserted into a pre-heated 2000 degree oven. If the safe is not constructed properly, the rapid heating will likely cause an explosion.[*]FR - Fire resistant, unrated insulated safe - This product is awaiting UL approval.[*]Class 350 1/2-hour fire rating - During this test, the safe is heated for one-half hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees. Because paper will begin to char at approximately 400 degrees, the unit being tested must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees during heat-up and cool-down testing in order to earn its rating.[*]Class 350 1-hour fire rating - To earn this rating, the safe is heated for one hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees, then put through the cool-down test. During this time the safe must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees.[*]Cool-down test - This procedure is a key part of UL's fire testing procedures. After a one- or two-hour fire rating test, the safe is left in the oven for cool-down time with the heat turned off. Because of the intensive heat of one- and two-hour tests, the temperature inside the safe will continue to rise for up to one hour after the oven is turned off. To pass UL testing, the safe's interior temperature may not exceed 350 degrees at any time during heat-up or cool-down procedures.[*]Class 350 1-hour fire & impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 1-hour fire testing (see above).[*]Class 350 2-hour fire rating - The safe is heated for two hours to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees and must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees to earn this rating. Class 350 2-hour rating and impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 2-hour fire testing (see above). [/ul]

RE: Gun Safes
 

I have been looking for one as well. Depending on your location you can save quite a bit of moneyIF you can find a used one for sale. I've seen a couple Brownings go on eBay for $500 or more less than a new one. Only catch is finding one close enough you can go get it yourself. I looked at a Cannon at my local Tractor Supply store. It was $689 I think. It was pretty nice for the price. It took the employees about 10 minutes to open it for me. They weren't used to the 4 left turns, 3 right turns etc, turning of the tumbler. I guess the electronic locks are nice but some say they won't last as long as a tumbler.
I want to get one to keep my kids away from my guns when they get older. I wouldn't feel comfortablewhen their friendscome into my house. Kids are kids, I'll admit I was in my dads gun cabinet plenty of times and he never knew it. I lived in the country then, now I live in a small city. My kids will learn all about gun safety when they get older. I know I could probably get into my pine gun cabinet with a butter knife if I tried hard enough. (Not good)
I had a chance to buy a used Browning Medallion locally for $800. They are very nice. It had some marks on it but was still in great shape. I tried to trade and bargain with the guy and ended up losing it.[:@]
I'm tryin to decide if I want to wait and try to get a Browning or whatever else I can find used or buy the Cannon from Tractor Supply (they have 10% off specials from time to time).

Try eBay, craigslist or other forums like this one. They are out there, you just have to be lucky enough to live nearby. Good luck.

Mike

RE: Gun Safes
 

Well, I have one of these. Mine is a Model B-17, which is no longer listed on the web site. I think the number has been changed to the B-45 (40x72x27). Weight is 1800+ lbs.

http://www.graffundersafes.com/products/safes-weapon.html

These safes are awesome and I would put them up against anythings else. Ulrich and his son (or son-in-law) I can't remember delivered the safe. LUCKILY, I live fairly close to where these are manufactured, so delivery was not too bad.

The ONLY problem I have is that I am planning to move this spring and I don't know how I am going to move it. I think I am going to try to pay Ulrich to move it. No one has moved more of them than he has.

RE: Gun Safes
 

Here's yet another area of the shooting sports where there are too many freakin' choices!

I bought my safe 2 years ago, when my boys were 10, 7, 4, and 2 years old. Enough said. I found out one could go from a glorified filing cabinet all the way up to a DEFCON 5 level, with a million and a ½ choices in between. It can become incredibly confusing in a real hurry.

I live in a house that's got an alarm, with smoke detectors hard-wired into the system. I live on a not-uncrowded cul de sac that's < 2 miles from the police and fire stations. Given that, I didn't feel I needed something that could endure the fires of Hell for 6 straight days, nor one that could resist a diamond-tipped saw for many hours, nor one that was too heavy to pick up even with a skid steer. I ended up with a lower-tier Heritage safe with the standard dial lock, and it's done what I needed it to do. I gave $1,695 for it (I forget the capacity, but I think it's near 27 or 30 guns), and another $150 for a 3rd party guy to get it from their place into my home office. As I recall, it's right around 900 lbs.

I had looked at the Brownings at Bass Pro Shops, but a little study showed that they've got higher prices while lacking the features of many lower-priced safes. For instance, ask the people selling the Brownings why they have clear plastic tubing over the locking lugs on the floor models. It's because the lugs don't automatically retract as you close the door, so they can slam into the door frame & chip the paint.(Unless they've upgraded them in the pastcouple o' years.) On mine, the lugsdraw back into the door, and you merely turn the handle to lock it onceit's shut. Little stuff like that.

I've been told that if you keep the safe in a place that's visible from the windows, many times a burgaler will skip the whole house & move on to something easier. Even if that's not true, it doesn't make sense to drop that kind of $$$ and then hide it! I don't view my safe as a show piece, (actually, it usually scares the women I date the first time they see it...)but it is visible to anyone who happens to be sauntering through my flower beds.

Another thing to remember is that unless one of your houseguests has spent years & years in the safe business, it's highly unlikely they'll have ANY idea whatsoever what level of safe you bought, so you might as well go with the lower priced one so long as it meets your fire requirements. No one will be snickering behind your back, "oh look, he bought the cheap one...", unless you've got the truck box fromyour pickup standing on its side in the corner ofthe room.

And there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to getthe sales folks to throw in a dehumidifier for free, and maybe some gunsocks too. The dehumidifier is just a cheap curling iron that keeps the safe's interior too warm for condensation to form. If you're spending that kind of money, they should be quite willing to work with you.

Good Luck,

FC

RE: Gun Safes
 

Check out this link....pretty informative.


http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html

RE: Gun Safes
 

Exactly st8! That's what I said in my post. You buy a safe by it's Label. This is the business I was in for over30yrs.

RE: Gun Safes
 

"DON'T leave power tools or cutting torches near your safe."

Dat's phunny. :D:D


I have another one.

"Don't leave your combination taped to the front of your safe."

RE: Gun Safes
 

Rebel Hog,
Based on your experience, what is your opinion of the Titan series of safes from Fort Knox. I in no way claim to be an expert on this subject, but did try to do some informative reading and research before making my decision. My safe was a generous gift from my in-laws, who insisted due to my 4 year old in the house. Honest opinions appreciated....no hard feelings regardless. Thank You for Your Time.

RE: Gun Safes
 

In my opinion, much about the Fort Knox safes is nothing more than marketing.

RE: Gun Safes
 

Besides the lable, buy one that is much bigger than you need right now. It seems it does not matter how big of one you buy, they always fill up.

http://www.libertysafe.com/safegallery.lasso

You will be surprised at how much stuff you will want in there and a Bow will take up 6-8 guns' worth of room, atleast.

Doug

RE: Gun Safes
 

I've heard some pretty good things about Cannon Safe's. I'm looking at the Cannon series of their safes right now. They're supposed to have an incredible lifetime warranty - if it's ever damaged due to fire, flood, burglary, they'll fix it for free. Anyone know of any negatives in their line?

RE: Gun Safes
 

Any 3 tumbler combination lock has 1 million possible combinations!:)

RE: Gun Safes
 

I am curious about the basis for this statement. I looked at alot of safes before I bought my Heritage, and I didn't see anything wrong with Ft Knox safes. I almost bought one, but I found a deal on a Heritage "demo".

RE: Gun Safes
 

st8t, the Titan is a good safe for the home owner.

1. Ithas Sargent & Greeleaf II Manipulation Resistant Combo Lock with internal relocker...........Excellent

2. Door is 1-1/8"plate and protected at drill points, but the other 5 sides are 3/16"reinforced plate..............Door Very Good.............5 sides Fair

3.Is geardriven forbolt retraction and extension...........Multi-gear drive, 5 to 1 reduction rack & pinion multi-gear drive locking mechanism........Excellent

4.Hasbolt attackrelocking system........Excellent

5.Has 20-1-1/2" bolts.........Very Good

6. Has Drill & Tool attackGuard on Lock Bolt...........Excellent

7. Has Drill stop hard plate with recessed multi-bearings.......Excellent

8. Has Ball Bearing hinges.....................Excellent

9. Fire Rating is 1680*-1-1/2 Hrs with interior maintained at 350*........VeryGood

st8t, the best Safe is TRTLTX 60X6.........TR (torch)...TL (tool)...TX (explosives)...60(resistant for 1 hr)...X6 (on6 sides).. These are usually Jewlers Diamond Safes and run in the range of $6,000-$8,000. When safemen speak of safes, they consider Mosler and Diebold. These are the ones used by Banks, FBI and Post Offices and Goverment agencies..File Cabinets are called GSA Containersmade especially for the goverment and Mosler or Diebold manipulation proofcombination locks. These File cabinets are protected by Mosler (Relsom Plate) or Diebold ( Infusite Plate).

RE: Gun Safes
 

My biggest fear regarding a gun safeis its ability to withstand a fire. I have 2 friends who owned safes (one a $2500 Browning and the other a $1750 Cannon) and hadhouse fires. Both lost everything in their safe - as it got so hot the contents caught fire.We live in the country, so the fire dept. took some time to arrive. Both houses were a total loss, as were all the contents. One guy told me the fire chief told him that no safe can withstand a complete house fire. I believe a good safe offers all the protection needed regarding theft, but few, if any, offer complete fire protection. I'd say that fire rating would be the determining factor if one were looking for a safe. ymmv.

RE: Gun Safes
 

Rebel Hog,
I really appreciate the time you took to respond to my inquiry. From a novice point of view I agree fully the Titan series Ft. Knoxx is a very good "home-gun safe" My employment requires me to deal with one of those GSA file cabinets on a daily basis. While I in no way could recite the facts as you have, I will say without a doubt these GSA cabinets are VERY VERY secure! Sometimes so secure they can be a real pain in the as)! My new Titan is scheduled for delivery next Monday, and I must say I am certainly looking forward to getting it. As a LEO for 20 years I can say without a doubt........while there are individuals capable of defeating a secure home safe....these individuals are few and far between. The threat of fire scares me much more than some yahoos ability to invade my possessions. Thanks again for your time and expertise.

RE: Gun Safes
 

Fire Ratings
[ul][*]Impact test - The UL impact test calls for the safe to be heated to 1550 degrees for 30 minutes (1638 degrees for a 2-hour fire rated safe) then dropped onto concrete rubble from a height of 30 feet. The safe is then turned upside down and reheated for another 30 minutes (45 minutes for a 2-hour fire rated safe). During this process, it must maintain its integrity and protect all contents in order to pass the UL impact test.[/ul]


2 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with outside
temperature of 1850 degrees, plus survived drop test onto rubble from 30 feet.

Class 350 2-hour fire rating - The safe is heated for two hours to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees and must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees to earn this rating. Class 350 2-hour rating and impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 2-hour fire testing

RE: Gun Safes
 

I'm retired from the Sheriff Dept. as supervisor for 15yrshere in Tampa as a Safe & Vault, Prison Locks and all locking devices, 3 jails and 7,000 inmates.I assisted the OCB in all safe openings, 24-7:)

Iowned and operated a Lock business and covered all, Banks, Commercial,Residential andAutomotive for 15 yrs andthen was hired by the Sheriff Dept..

You would be surprised how much the younger generation knows about the workings of a safe. That's why I mentioned about buying a safe by it's Label and not Looks and Price. It's always a good idea of incorporating theexisting Alarm System in your home to your safeif you havean Alarm System.

Never place your Safe by Windows, Entrance Doors or Exit Doors. If placed in basements, have a good Dehumidifier working at all times. Be careful with placing Camera's in safe's cause of humidity.

RE: Gun Safes
 

Again, this is my opinion. I am definitely no expert. Probably should have used the term "some" instead of "much".

I did quite a bit of looking at safes and"some" researchwhen I was in the market several years ago. I don't doubt that the Ft. Knox is a good safe.

But, in my mind, Rack and Pinion is more of a marketing issue than it is a real benefit over other designs. 20-28locking bolts is not necessary. Again, it just makes sense to me looking at them that 12-14 or some number far less than 20 is necessary. More means more cost. That's ok if it is actually providing more safety, but it is a waste if it is just to "look good".

Look at the front page of the Ft. Knox website. It shows the insides of the door. Is 28 locking bolts really necessary? Are the corner locking bolts really necessary, or are they there to impress the buyer?

Again, this is the way I have felt about it. I could be ALL WRONG.

A couple questions for Rebel Hog, it is obvious you are an expert on the subject and I am always happy to learn.

1) Does the Ft. Knox safe (entire safe, not just parts) have a UL listing? It is my understanding that for a safe to have a UL listing, all the locking mechanism has to be the same from safe to safe. Thus a person wanting to break into a safe would have a blueprint of the internals of the safe and know where to attack. Some sort of randomizing would be better.

2) Regarding fire protection. Isn't fire protection and heat protection two different things? Sheet rock is used in many safes (don't know offhand what Ft. Knox uses). Sheet rock is good at keeping the fire away from the contents, but does very little to control the heat. The heat alone from the fire is enough to destroy the contents even if the fire never reaches it. It is my understanding that the protection needs to contain moisture to be an effective heat barrier. Water has a high heat index, meaning it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature of water.

I am not wanting to start an arguement. Just trying to see if my logic is all messed up.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

RE: Gun Safes
 

It sounds like you have done your homework on the subject. I get curious when someone is putting down a company or product as to where the negative info came from. Thanks for the explanation.

RE: Gun Safes
 

Well, what I said and the fancy, frilly web site with all the big names on there. You know, I like Bo Derek just as much as the next guy, but..............

Anyway, I am hoping Rebel Hog will chime in and set me straight. :)

RE: Gun Safes
 

RE: Gun Safes
 

Themost important thing to remember is they are not GUN safes, they areHOME safes. At least that's what you tell the IRS when you're filing your taxes. I've heard a safe can be a deduction on your taxes if you store your tax documents in it along with your guns. I'm also looking to buy a safe. I have worried about fire ratings and how quickly someone could break into it. But I finally realized right now I don't have a safe at all and anything is better than storing my guns in plastic gun cases. I'm going to try to get one for around $400. I figure if I put my fire resistant box inside it with all my important documents thay will be good enough for me.

RE: Gun Safes
 

I'm driving down the road one day and I spot sticking up from a pile of junk a diamond shining like the holy grail, after what seemed like an eternity of slow motion still eye contact and my wife course puching me to get back on the road I realize I must own this. She on the other hand only sees what every nonproject rational mind sees. Which by now is only classified by her eyes as "junk". I like to think of these items as a rebirth. Later that week while the vechicle occuponcy is less than that of the operator I stopped and talked to the owner of the pile of "junk". I picked the so called "junk" up which by now is called a safe for a mere $40. It was a very early model Heritage gun safe, small but just right for my little home and project for the winter. The door was badly dragging and the lock was dismantled and broken to bits inside. There was absolutely no interior and it was starting to suface rust for it had been outside for about 2yrs. The work began by trying to locate a S&G lock, found this complete off a demo safe that the new owner upgraded to an electronic for $25. Next began the process of birth or otherwise known to the mortal mind as wasting time on that stupid safe. When sanding and painting was complete the interior was next. In my research years ago the typical insulating material was 1/2" drywall as a typical 30 min. 1200 degree fire. Me being the overkill bring a RPG to a knife fight kind of guy decided this obviously wasn't going to be enough. I added 1-3/4 to the ceiling and floor and 1-1/2 to the walls and 3/4 to the door of drywall and sealing all cracks with silver furnace tape. I then added carpet and I made custom gun racks and a shelf from cherry wood from my Grandpa's farm. The final step was pinstripe and scrolls from ebay for $6 and a new fire seal fot the door.After all said and done with I had about $200 in it. I don't know what the fire rating would be on this unit but I'd put it up against some of the best.The extra drywall added weight like you wouldn't believe. After bringing home the new addition to the family the wife was quite suprised at how it turned out.
Before the rebirth

After

RE: Gun Safes
 

that is a sharp looking safe. I wish I could find one laying in a pile of junk....congrats

RE: Gun Safes
 

What should I do?

Cabelas in Richfield, WI has a sale today and tomorrow on their "Cabelas" series safes, which are made by Liberty. $100 off by Cabelas and another $100 off in mail-in rebate from Liberty (double each offer if the safe is over $2000). I am looking at the Bronze series (which is similar to the Franklin series on the Liberty website). The 60.5 X 36X 27.5" safe with 34 Long Gun capacityis priced at$1599, so$1399 would be the price(before tax) after instant and mail-in rebate. Compare that to a similar size Browning at $1799fromScheels SportingGoods andIam thinking it may be too goodof a deal to pass up (especially since I have a $200 gift card to Cabelas). But I just don't havevery much time to think about it. I really like the gun rack (duoplus) on the Browning and the 180 degree doorswing, but notenough to pay$400 more.

The 840lb safe has a 60 min fire rating at 1200 degrees with 12 gauge steel and 4 layers of 5/8" fireboard in ceiling and 3 layers on the walls and door. They don't have one in stock with manual lock, so I would have to wait for one to ship to the store.

I am going to call another store tomorrow that carries Browning and check their prices and then I will have to make a quick decision to wait for the next sale or make a road trip to Cabelas.

What do you think?

RE: Gun Safes
 

Contrary to what some would have you believe, "size matters". Along with fire ratings and locking systems being very important, make sure when you do purchase one, that it is way bigger than you think you will ever need. It is simply amazing how quick they fill up. Amazing!

RE: Gun Safes
 

Well, I still have $ sitting in my shoe box size safe with my guns on a wood gun rack... after further review and sleeping on my initial decision of getting the Liberty "Cabelas" brand safe I decided to wait. I called a few other stores and found that the first quoted price for the Browning was very high, so I wouldn't be saving as much as I thought to go without the gun rack on the door and 180 degree door swing hinge.

Has anyone looked into anafter market gun rack for thesafe door? Browning must design their interior to allowroom for the guns on the door when the door is closed, soI would assume that even if you made your own door gun rack you wouldhave to also modifiy the interior shelving of the safe.

RE: Gun Safes
 

Johan,
In addition toa large main safe for fire protection, use a Gunvault for quick access to a handgun. Has electronic keypad that can be opened in about a second in the dark. Some models have compartments for 2 handguns and are deep enough to handle a 6" 44mag revolver or a long barrel semiauto with a light. Other models go in cars.

The spring loaded door is recessed to resist prying. There are predrilled holes on the bottom to facilitate securing it to another surface to keep the whole safe from taking a walk. There is a tamper indicator that will tell you if somebody entered a wrong access code since the last time the correct one was used, and it will notify you of low battery long before you need one. It also has a barrel style key backup, which arepretty pick-proof.

http://www.gunvault.com



V-Linealso makes a similar quick access safe for long guns that is shallow and designed to be intalled in any wall between studs. Anyone can install it in about 30 minutes. Makes a nice home for your '12 gauge hallway cleanup device' and only exposes your defense gun while your other precious babiesare tucked away elsewherein the fireproof fortress.

http://www.vlineind.com/html/products.html