Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

What I mean to ask is this: Of course a -06 can be loaded down to 308 pressures and velocities. I've heard that the 30-06 really shines compared to the 308 when you go beyond 180gr bullets(not just velocities but accuracy as well), does it go the other way around with light bullets? What's the usual weight savings in bolt guns between long and short actions? I've long held that unless a 30-06 is marginal it was always better to go with the 308 because it was a short action that could be handloaded to match the L.A. 30-06.

Another question: would "about" the same amount of a given powder give the same velocity out of the two cartridges?

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

The 06 also does windows but I dont think the 308 will.

Unless you have a long barrel on an 06 (24+) so it has time to burn the extra powder its not that much different in velocity. You could match the factory loads of an 06 with handloads in a 308 pretty easy but if you handload both then the extra case capacity would pay off.


I dont think we can assume a heavier bullet is more accurate in the 06 or vice versa. A 180 grain bullet going a couple hundred feet slower doesnt make it less accurate.

I think Id just get the 300 WSM and have best of both.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Do most companies put the same twists on the barrels? This is the only way I could imagine the 30-06 *really* handling heavier bullets better. Like I said earlier, I'm well aware that 308s can be pushed up to the 30-06...but can 30-05 be pulled down to the "light" 308 levels without erattic (sp?) pressures?

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

unless you want a shorter bolt throw i could stick with the -06. i don't think their is anything a 308 can do that a -06 couldn't

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

hmmm why did they make the 10 x smaller after the indroduction of the 308 onto the competition sceen. Yep I'm a fan of the 308 but I have and will use a 06 again, for my shooting needs they are equally effective in my hands as is true with most people.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

I have an 06 and a 300 WSM both will shoot .6" groups at 100 yards with 165gr and 180gr hot handloads. The WSM really surprised me though, I loaded up some 150gr Remingtons at 3300fps and shot a 1/2" at 100 yards. More unbelievable still is that I loaded up some 110gr SP at 3600fps and shot a 1/2" at 100 yards. I was expecting a 3-4" group not a 1/2" group. The 30-06 is a custom Mauser 98 and the WSM is a Stainless Ruger M77 Mk II. Every gun shoots differently If you are happy with 308 velocities get a 308, if you want 06 velocities get an 06. If you want a fast short action caliber get a 300 WSM. They are all very good and accurate calibers.

A good trigger and scope have a lot more to do with good accuracy than one would think.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

When it comes to hunting velocities, "If" you load the 30-06 to the "same pressures" of a 308 Win., it will be pushing the same weight bullet faster than a 308 Win..

Drilling Man

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

True . . . factory 30-06 ammo is loaded to about 10% less pressure than .308 factory ammo; and with factory loads they are about the same velocities with bullet weights of 165 grains or less. Starting with 180 grain bullets, though, the extra case capacity and overall length of the 30-06 starts to overshadow the .308 Winchester - probably because you have to seat the bullets so deeply in the .308 to make the maximum overall length of 2.800. I built a .308 tactical rifle a couple years ago on a long action, and the shooter was able to get right at 2800 fps out of 180 gr. bullets when seating them out past the normal overall length. Bottom line is that they are really close, despite the obvious difference is case size.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Roskoe is completly right, there is little difference between the two and you couldnt go wrong either way. I quit splitting hairs with rifle calibre chioce. I have a 243 and a 30-06 and there aint nuthin I cant drop!

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Sorry, I would have to see the .308 that can push a 180 grain bullet at 2800 fps. Even with excessive freebore, I would still have to see it to believe it. A long action make no difference in maximun overall length for a cartridge. The supposed advantage a short action has is the fact that it is stiffer. As most handloaders are aware, SAAMI overall length is not necessarly the right overall length for an individual rifle. Any .308 cartridge loaded to SAAMI overall length will fit is an .308 rifle, this is the intent of establishing a standard overall length. While seating the 308s bullet out will increase case capacity, I seriously doubt the 308 can push a 180 grain pill 100 fps faster than listed speeds a 30-06 can deliver. I am betting Roskoe mistyped his post.

The real reason a 30-06 will shoot a bullet faster than a .308 is the same reason a 300 WM will shoot a bullet faster than a 30-06....case capacity. Granted, powders have evolved. However, powders have evolved for all calibers, not just the .308.

The advantage of the .308 is not small. It is an extremely accurate cartridge design, more accurate that the 30-06 as a general rule. Also, the .308 has substantially less recoil than the 30-06. This makes the .308 easier to shoot well.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

EXACTLY!!

If loaded to the same pressures with the same weight bullet, the 06 uses "more" powder to get to that pressure. And that equils more gas that equils more velocity.

When it comes to heavier bullets, the 06 really out shines the 308, and my favorite "one load for all my big game hunting in 30 cal." is the 200 grain Nosler partition, so it's a 30-06 for me.

As the targets show, the 200 NP's shoot very well,

Drilling Man

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

ought, I believe I could do it but not with optimal accuracy. I am kicking a 165gr bullet now at 2800fps with 46gr of varget in a 308.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

The .308 is not significantly more accurate than the 30-06. This myth was started because M1 garands rechambered in the 1950s were much more accurate than m1s chambered in 30-06. The reasoning for this disparity was that the m1 was not originally designed for the 30-06 cartridge and could not use the cartridge to its full potential or even use the best propellants in the cartridge for that matter. A top end highly tuned long range bolt action rifle chambered in 30-06 can actually outperform an equivalent rifle in .308 in long range shooting as the bullet from the 30-06 starts out 100 fps faster. Long range competition shooters usually skip the 30-06 altogether and go right to the 300 wm to get additional velocity over the .308.

To answer the original question, the 30-06 can do everything the .308 and then some. I personally have rifles in both chamberings and don't particulary favor one cartidge over the other for what I use them for.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

I didn't mis-type my post. Using WW748 anda 180 gr. Speer Grand Slam bullet, this 26" Shilen Select Match 1:12 stainless barrel could make 2792 fps when seated out to an overall length of 2.900". I'm sure this was a maximum load, but I have never seen a 30-06 get much past 2800 fps with any barrel in this bullet weight without showing obvious pressure signs.

Without the long action, the COL would have been limited to 2.800". The tends to raise pressures a bit with bullets heavier than 165/168 grains. The 180 grain bullets intrude into the case some when seated to 2.8", effectively reducing the case capacity.

Having said that, the regular off-the-shelf .308 Winchester rifle can normally be safely handloaded to no higher than the mid to upper 2600's.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Big, I have no doubt a .308 can push a 165 grain pill at 2800 fps. I do doubt a .308 can push a 180 at 2800 fps. I can push a 165 grain bullet at 2975 fps out of my 30-06 and can hit 2800 fps with a 180.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

I know, thats what you have already stated. Correct?

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

As I stated before, action length has nothing at all to do with cartridge overall length. What does affect overall length is the distance from the bolt face to the lands. The chamber on a short action can be equal in size, or bigger, than on a long action.

In short, I still dont buy your story.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Action length has nothing to do with cartridge overall length? Think about what you just said . . . . . .

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

That's about like saying the size of the door has nothing to do with the size of the object that can pass through it.

Sure you can shoot cartridges that measure 3.6 inches long out of a short action receiver that measures 2.8 inches long but you will have to remove the bolt from the receiver every time in order to load one, effectively making it a single shot rather than a repeater.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Ok, lemme make this simple for you. Using a .223 as the example, since it is even shorter than a .308. We have 3 bolt action rifles chambered for .223....a long action, a short action and a miniature action. Which rifle will have the longest overall cartridge length? You cant tell by the action size, since the overall cartridge length has nothing to do with action length, but rather the distance from the bolt face to the lands.

Since we were discussing a .308, a cartridge which will fit in a short action or a long action, I assumed you would be smart enough to figure out what I meant. Of course I was not trying to say that you would want a 30-06 length cartridge in a short action. My poor judgement, I suppose.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Now Im not stating this with any certanity but I would like to hear your opinions.

A friend of mine looked at loading data for similar 180 grains bullets in these two calibers and calculated that a .308 can do anything a 30-06 can do at 30 meters shorter distance. I mean that the difference in speed is not bigger than that a 30-06 bullet has come down to a .308 muzzle speed when it has travelled 30 meters.

Can this be? What are the true numbers in this example? How far can a 30-06 travel before it is down in .308 starting velocity?

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

.308 vs .30-06


Velocity (ft/sec)




Cartridge Type
Bullet
Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500

Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
150 CLUB
2820
2546
2288
2046
1819
1611

Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
150 CLUB
2910
2631
2368
2121
1889
1674

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Thanks reb!
Do I read it correctly when Im assuming that a 30-06 at 100 yds is at 2631 fps and a .308 at muzzle gives 2820? And as the distance increases the difference diminishes between the two?

OK classlets do math! All together now!

The difference between 30-06 and .308 at muzzle is 90 fps so how far must the 30-06 travel to lose 90 fps?

The 30-06 loses 279 fps the first 100 yds = approx 3 fps a yard.

90/3=30

Am I correct in assuming that for this given loads my friends calculations are correct? The 30-06 is down at .308 starting speed after only 30 yds.

So have we now busted the myth of any practical superiority of the 30-06? (:Dmaybe Im the one who should be in a TV-show and not the honorable dr death:D). Oh dear! What will come of this?

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

"Practically" speaking, the 30-06 throws a bullet a bit faster than a .308 will through the same bullet. The difference in speed grows as bullet weight increases. What does that mean in the field? Not a whole heck of alot. The difference is similar to the increase the 300 WM gives over the 30-06. A few inches flatter trajectory is about it. If the shooter knows his rifle and isnt some arm chair shooter, then there is no reason the .308, 30-06, or 300 WM wont do a fine job. Some folks like to claim there is a massive advantage by changing from cartridge A to cartridge B when in reality shot placement is the key. Always has been, always will be.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Okay, so we've mulled over the different strong points of each...and the overwhelming similarity but how 'bout the question regarding short-action vs long-action? There's a slight weight savings on the short-action but (aside from military autos that operate on the fridge of red-hot), in the field, is there really enough difference to notice "speed" or "ease" or "whatever" advantage in a bolt or pump?

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Rebel what barrel length were those speeds at. I think if you have a 26" barrel the 06 will show what itll do but with a 22" and shorter there about the same.

ALso the guys who use chrono's know a big secret(not) is that factory ammo speeds are not always correct. We need alot more info then just the speeds with corelok's and what Rem say the speeds are. We arent even sure if they areshot threwthe same gun or not.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Note:
These ballistics reflected a test barrel length of 24" except those for 30 Carbine and 44 Remington Magnum which are 20" barrels.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

I give you three quesses and the fristtwodon't countof what gun Remington used?:D:D:D:D

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Basically until you start shooting at 350 yards and more you will never know the differance between a .308 and a 30-06 under hunting conditions.

Firing the same bullets the 30-06 will have a slightly flatter trajectory which will equate to only 10 - 15 yards extra when using a +-3" rise and fall from line of sight (crosshairs).

Even at 500 yards the 30-06 will only have about 7 or 8 inches less drop than a .308.

So, other than personal preferance, there is no real world advantage to either one.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

How about a sasquatch? What would I use?

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

jff thats easy!
Use " the gun of your dreams":D

I checked the Lapua home page to try and calculate with heavier bullets but the .308 and the 30-06 had the same muzzle velocity with their 180 gr Mira bullet so that did not add anything. Not that it would anyway!

30-06/.308 Same same, only different!

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

Rebel thx for the barrel length info, I do think its important when comparing speeds and "DOH" I guess your right on the gun they used I wasnt thinking I doubt they used a Savage 110 for the tests.

I notice sometimes that when people get published speeds on 2 dif calibers in our reloading books that its real hard to compare 2 calibers if they are shot outa different guns I know its close but thats null and void in this arguement.

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

In the real world the 30-06 will get more velocity from almost all bullet weights. In the hunting fields though both are fairly equal and what one will kill, so will the other. The 308 has the advantage of the shorter action but when it comes to pure velocity and versitility, the 06 still has the edge. If I were hunting deer size game and smaller I would buy a 308. If elk and bigger, the 30-06. This is just because of the advantage with 180 and heavier bullets in the 06. Either way your a winner.;)

RE: Can the 30-06 *really* do everything a 308 can?
 

The 30-06 can and will do everything that the 308 does...with style!