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which is more powerful?
I was just wondering, my cousin has a 30.06 and I have a 7mm both of them are by savage arms. I think the 7mm is more powerful but he thinks his .06 is. which one is truly more powerful?
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RE: which is more powerful?
7mm what?
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RE: which is more powerful?
Just look up the ballistics of each on any manufacturers web page, like remington or winchester.
And I agree with Rebel, you would need to know which chambering in 7 mm, there are a few different one. Some being less and some being more I would guess. I never looked them up though. Paul |
RE: which is more powerful?
Assuming the 7mm Rem mag is what you have it would be the more powerful of the two. It has starts out faster, retains more velocity and has more energy to all ranges than the 30-06 does with any given weight bullet.
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RE: which is more powerful?
The 7mm Rem Mag is more powerful than the 30.06. It does have more energy and speed but it does blow the 06 out of the water. I always thought it was a ton more powerful, but it actually isnt alot more they are pretty close with the magnum having the advantage. The 7mm outperforms the 06 in penetration though. The 7mm has a long slender bullet compared to the short stubby 30 cal bullet. This means the longer 7mm bullet doesnt fully mushroom leaving a stem behind the mushroom to push it deeper, whereas the .30 cal bullet becomes basically a ball and slows down quicker. I shoot a 7mm rem mag and love it, i also had a 30.06 and wouldnt go back after getting my magnum.
Dave |
RE: which is more powerful?
The best available 30-06 factory ammogenerates 3361FT/LBS of Kinetic Energy at the muzzle this actually exceeds the available ammo from any 7 MM Remmington Mag factory load I have ever seen. Actually there are 7 different factory loads that have 3300 or more FT/LBS of KE from the 06. These are "High Energy" loads with higher energy powders that operate best in 308 and 30-06 cartridges. The 7MM was always on top but with these recent cartridges the 99 year old 06 is currently in front.
PS: The 06 is also shooting heavier bullets with these HE loads than the 7MM and the LBS of Momentum is where the 06really has the edge. |
RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: bigbulls Assuming the 7mm Rem mag is what you have it would be the more powerful of the two. It has starts out faster, retains more velocity and has more energy to all ranges than the 30-06 does with any given weight bullet. Weight Velocity KE 1653015 3330 180 2900 3361 |
RE: which is more powerful?
Sorry, bumped the enter key.
I also wanted to address the preconception that the 7mm bullets have better BC and therefore have better downrange energy. See if this does not change your mind: 165 Grain Barnes BC .505 180 Grain BarnesBC .552 200 Grain Accubond BC.588 The BC of 30 caliber bullets are as good as they get in hunting weight bullets it is only when you compare the light 30s vs the middleweight 7MMs does the 7MM appears to have an edge. Also when it comes to handloads the 06 can deliver over 2000 LBS of energy at 450 yards with the 180 Grain XLC bullet @1000 ft abovesea level. I am pretty confident that is better than any 7MM handloads energy at that distance. |
RE: which is more powerful?
Ok Scott lets compare apples to apples here. Given similar weight bullets (180 grain for the 30 and 160 for the 7mm) the 7mm will have better BC and SD. It is a fact that can not be argued with no matter how one tries to manipulate the numbers. Besides that no one factory loads the 200 grain NAB for the 30-06.
If you wanted to compare a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet you would need to compare it to the 175 grain 7mm bullet. The 7mm bullet will again have better BC and SD. Sierra matchking 200 - 30 cal has a BC of .565 yet the 7mm 175 grain matchking has a BC of .608. When comparing the same bullets of similar weights for their bore size the 7mm will almost always have better BC and SD. Federal published data 180 NAB - 30 cal - .271 SD and .507 BC. MV of 2700 at 500 yds 1903. ME of 2914 at 500 yds 1448. 160 NAB - 7mm - .283 SD and .531 SD. MV of 2950 at 500 yds 2127. ME of 3093 at 500 yds 1608. Yes there are a couple of factory high energy loads for the 30-06 that do give an edge to the 30-06 at the muzzle. However there is a 175 sierra game king load from Federal that has the 7mm rem mag back on top in energy levels between 150 & 200 yards. The 7mm Rem mag is still the more powerful cartridge. |
RE: which is more powerful?
Those high energy loads are not everything they say they are. Ammo boxes lie cronographs don't.
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RE: which is more powerful?
Bigbulls,
When we talk about "similar bullet weight for a given caliber" are we not talking about equal sd? I only ask this because it seems we are splitting hairs here. |
RE: which is more powerful?
Yes if they were perfectly equal then the SD would be the same but no one makes perfectly equal SD bullets for differeing bore sizes. At least I don't know of any.
Just comparing a mid weight bullet to a mid weight bullet and answering a numbers post with a numbers post. |
RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: SCHOOLBOY Those high energy loads are not everything they say they are. Ammo boxes lie cronographs don't. |
RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: bigbulls Ok Scott lets compare apples to apples here. Given similar weight bullets (180 grain for the 30 and 160 for the 7mm) the 7mm will have better BC and SD. It is a fact that can not be argued with no matter how one tries to manipulate the numbers. Besides that no one factory loads the 200 grain NAB for the 30-06. If you wanted to compare a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet you would need to compare it to the 175 grain 7mm bullet. The 7mm bullet will again have better BC and SD. Sierra matchking 200 - 30 cal has a BC of .565 yet the 7mm 175 grain matchking has a BC of .608. When comparing the same bullets of similar weights for their bore size the 7mm will almost always have better BC and SD. Federal published data 180 NAB - 30 cal - .271 SD and .507 BC. MV of 2700 at 500 yds 1903. ME of 2914 at 500 yds 1448. 160 NAB - 7mm - .283 SD and .531 SD. MV of 2950 at 500 yds 2127. ME of 3093 at 500 yds 1608. Yes there are a couple of factory high energy loads for the 30-06 that do give an edge to the 30-06 at the muzzle. However there is a 175 sierra game king load from Federal that has the 7mm rem mag back on top in energy levels between 150 & 200 yards. The 7mm Rem mag is still the more powerful cartridge. With regard to the MatchKing bullet I was only comparing hunting bullets and I believe that is a target bullet. If target bullets are on the table Lost River Ballistics offers a 220graintarget bullet with a BC of .930but againI think most in this forum are interested inhunting bullets not ballistic freaks. Lastly I was very clearI my post that the7mm is more powerful except for the HighEnergy powders, so comparing standard 06 loadsto 7mm loads as above does not really compare the best of the 06. |
RE: which is more powerful?
For more info go here.
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jul96price.html |
RE: which is more powerful?
Yes I have seen that before. See the link from your link with the one exception to the rule. I just so happened to be the 180 grain 30-06 loads!
http://www.gun-tests.com/newspics/pdfs/1-1-Exception.pdf The links actually states to use this 06 load in lieu of going up to 300 win mag. |
RE: which is more powerful?
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RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: Scott Gags Yes I have seen that before. See the link from your link with the one exception to the rule. I just so happened to be the 180 grain 30-06 loads! http://www.gun-tests.com/newspics/pdfs/1-1-Exception.pdf The links actually states to use this 06 load in lieu of going up to 300 win mag. We found that while both Light Magnum and High Energy do produce higher muzzle velocities, the results are not nearly as impressive as the advertising claims. The greatest velocity reached with a 180gr bullet out of the hi energy 300winmag load was 3080fps. In other words the 300win mag still produced 249fps more than the 30-06 using 180gr bullets. Also mentioned in the article was that many of the hi energy loads including both 30-06 loads,showedsub standard accuracy in the rifles that they were tested in. |
RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: stubblejumper ORIGINAL: Scott Gags Yes I have seen that before. See the link from your link with the one exception to the rule. I just so happened to be the 180 grain 30-06 loads! http://www.gun-tests.com/newspics/pdfs/1-1-Exception.pdf The links actually states to use this 06 load in lieu of going up to 300 win mag. We found that while both Light Magnum and High Energy do produce higher muzzle velocities, the results are not nearly as impressive as the advertising claims. The greatest velocity reached with a 180gr bullet out of the hi energy 300winmag load was 3080fps. In other words the 300win mag still produced 249fps more than the 30-06 using 180gr bullets. Also mentioned in the article was that many of the hi energy loads including both 30-06 loads,showedsub standard accuracy in the rifles that they were tested in. Again most of the cartridges do not benifit significantly from the High Energy Powders and that was why the article gave the loads an overall thumbs down, but the article was very clear in stating that the 06 did benefit, so much infact that the article highlighted the 06 as the "Exception to the Rule" so I cannot understand why you try to state otherwise. Regarding the accuracy of the loads they only varied by 11 FPS which is respectable, the loads where grouping around 2" which is also respectable. As you know results will vary with different rifles. Now, below is a cut and paste right from the article: The sole case where there was a substantial difference in trajectory at 400 yards was between .30-06 180-grain loads. The High Energy Nosler Partition load dropped 42.68 inches at 400 yards, while the Federal Premium Nosler Partition load dropped 50.01 inches and the Speer Nitrex load fell 48.32 inches. And on that note I rest my case!!!!!!! |
RE: which is more powerful?
That was kind of the point of the "Exception to the Rule" section of the article. I cant belive you missed that. |
RE: which is more powerful?
comparing the .30-06 to the 7 MM Rem Mag as a hunting round is an exercise in pure academics. There's not a moose on the planet can tell the difference.
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RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: stubblejumper That was kind of the point of the "Exception to the Rule" section of the article. I cant belive you missed that. Federal High Energy Nosler Partition 180 Gr 3,203 LBS/KE Federal Premium Nosler Partion 180 Grain2,743 LBS/KE Yes, according to my calculations that is 460 LBS/ KE more. Are you really going try to say that is a "tiny" difference. It equates to 17% more KE and they are using the same bullet so no excuses there. For the record I did not bring up this article and don't really think much of its accuracy, for instance it says "We had the most samples in the .30-06 180-grain loadings, and we found significant muzzle velocity differences between Federal High Energy and standard loads." How can the same article come back and say the KE increase is "tiny" when the KE formula uses Speed/Squared in the formula. I always read articles and evalute the rational used, and its accuracy rather that accepting it as gospel. The KE comparison above shows a 17% increase but you call it tiny because thats what the article told you. I am thinking most anyone would agree with me that 17% is not "tiny" gain in killing power. Regardingaccuracy, as I said eariler the velocity differences of the 06 HE loads are respectable, and that leads me to lean toward the gun not liking that load. If they used more than one gun to test it might carry a little weight with me, but a load from one gun is not enough for me to determine that a load is accurate or not across the board. In addition only 3 of the 7180 Grain loads meet the accuracy requirements of the article. The HE loads average group is only 1/8" larger, andwith only comparison using the same bullet, the HE 180 Nosler Loads are actually more accurate than the Premium 180 Nosler loads. Like I said I try to evaluate what I read rather than take it as gospel.All the above just tells me the "one gun" is very possibly the problem and notthe many poor performing rounds. |
RE: which is more powerful?
Your right but it is still fun.
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RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: Scott Gags Your right but it is still fun. |
RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: Scott Gags ORIGINAL: stubblejumper That was kind of the point of the "Exception to the Rule" section of the article. I cant belive you missed that. Federal High Energy Nosler Partition 180 Gr 3,203 LBS/KE Federal Premium Nosler Partion 180 Grain2,743 LBS/KE Yes, according to my calculations that is 460 LBS/ KE more. Are you really going try to say that is a "tiny" difference. It equates to 17% more KE and they are using the same bullet so no excuses there. For the record I did not bring up this article and don't really think much of its accuracy, for instance it says "We had the most samples in the .30-06 180-grain loadings, and we found significant muzzle velocity differences between Federal High Energy and standard loads." How can the same article come back and say the KE increase is "tiny" when the KE formula uses Speed/Squared in the formula. I always read articles and evalute the rational used, and its accuracy rather that accepting it as gospel. The KE comparison above shows a 17% increase but you call it tiny because thats what the article told you. I am thinking most anyone would agree with me that 17% is not "tiny" gain in killing power. Regardingaccuracy, as I said eariler the velocity differences of the 06 HE loads are respectable, and that leads me to lean toward the gun not liking that load. If they used more than one gun to test it might carry a little weight with me, but a load from one gun is not enough for me to determine that a load is accurate or not across the board. In addition only 3 of the 7180 Grain loads meet the accuracy requirements of the article. The HE loads average group is only 1/8" larger, andwith only comparison using the same bullet, the HE 180 Nosler Loads are actually more accurate than the Premium 180 Nosler loads. Like I said I try to evaluate what I read rather than take it as gospel.All the above just tells me the "one gun" is very possibly the problem and notthe many poor performing rounds. |
RE: which is more powerful?
I just need to ask one question is 17%, 460 FPS increase in KE over an already premium ammunition "tiny"? Just a yes no would do.
With regard to your quote below: "The bottom line is that according to the article,the light magnum and hi energy loads do offer increased velocity over standard loads although they do not by any means live up to the manufacturers claims that you keep quoting." I have listed manufacturers velocities based on a 24" test barrel. The Federal HE 180 grain bullets in the article are Chronied from a 22" rifle, and they are less than 50 FPS off the published data. That is very respectable infact that is what I would expect how about anyone else out there? You continually quote parts of the article which are referring to the poor performance of the other cartridges, not the 06. I am not sure if you realize that or not.  The only HE ammo with the same bullet "180 NP" shows the HE ammo being both more accurate and 211 fps faster. That is the best performing HE load relative to the standard load of all the cartridges shown, and infact exceeds the claims of 150-200 FPS increases used to market HE loads!!!! I dont think you are going convice many people that is a"tiny" improvement Believe it on or not we actually agree, onone thing, that most HE loads "in general" are not that big of a step up, but the 06 at 211 fps is. It is kind of amusing that you would continue in your denial this long, the rough equivilent of kid sticking his fingers in his ears and saying La La, La La, while hearing something he dosent want to accept. |
RE: which is more powerful?
Both are kill loads....shoot to kill and youll see
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RE: which is more powerful?
"Also when it comes to handloads the 06 can deliver over 2000 LBS of energy at 450 yards with the 180 Grain XLC bullet @1000 ft abovesea level. I am pretty confident that is better than any 7MM handloads energy at that distance."
Not to stir this up anymore, but, I handload for my 7mm RM and my 140gr Nosler balistic tip load has (based on PointBlank Balistics program) 2026fpe at 450 yards at 1000 elevation and 70 degrees. The 160 accubonds have 2007fpe at 500 yards, same conditions. |
RE: which is more powerful?
Those numbers seem really high for the 7MM. The 160 would have to leave the muzzle at approx 3250 FPS that is 200 FPS above the loading manuals I looked at. What manual is that load coming from? If it is from a manual I would like to give it to a buddy working up an accubond load for his 7mm.
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RE: which is more powerful?
Both loads are using IMR 7828 but do not come from any single loading manual. I used several different sources to get a range of what was possible, started working up from below the max and stopped when I started seeing pressure signs, then backed off around a grain. I think the 140 load was listed at the IMR site but I was seeing pressure signs before I got to the max they listed. It shoots .5" groups on a regular basis. Excellent for most any large game, short of bear, you would want to hunt. A friendshot a large cow elk at 220 yards with it, dropped in its tracks and never moved.
I just checked the IMR site and the load they had 3 years ago when I worked up this load has been changed. I don't recall all the other sources I used back then. |
RE: which is more powerful?
I've been working more on my muzzleloaders this year and am just getting around to loading for this years hunts. While getting ready to load some 7mm rounds I noticed that the 3400fps figure was for the max load tested which did have some pressure signs. The final load I use is closer to 3350fps. Sorry for any confusion.
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RE: which is more powerful?
well at closer ranges the 06 is the more powerful due to its larger bore diameter and heavier bullet grns. but at longer ranges the 7mm is a better choice cause it has more fps and ke.
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RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: dmurphy317 I've been working more on my muzzleloaders this year and am just getting around to loading for this years hunts. While getting ready to load some 7mm rounds I noticed that the 3400fps figure was for the max load tested which did have some pressure signs. The final load I use is closer to 3350fps. Sorry for any confusion. The same is also true of the 160 grain load which calculates out to 3250 FPS when the 7mm RUM is only pushing 3140. That is with more powder than the 7mm Rem case can hold and is also above its pressure limit. The only 2 variables I can think of that would account for the performance you are gettingis: pressures are quite high, or you have a long barrel/custom barrel, or probably a combination of both. At any rate it apparenty seemsto have beena safe load in your gun andthat is all that that really matters. |
RE: which is more powerful?
I think you may have something a little off in your ballistics program to get the downrange energies that you quoted earlier. The 140 Grain load would have be travelling at 3445 FPS and that is faster than the IMR velocities for the 7MM RUM (3290) with 7828 powder. The 7mmRUM will easily produce 3550fps to 3600fps using 140gr bullets.If you use tsx's or coated bullets such as the barnes xlc the velocitywill likelybe even higher.Even my 7mmstw's produce 3500fps with 140gr bulletswith less case capacity than my 7mmRUM.My own 7mmremmag would produce 3250fps with a 24" barrel.I have personally witnessed a 7mm remmag with a 28" barrel exceed 3350fps. The numbers that Iam postingare actual chronographed velocitiesand not merely estimations or calculations. |
RE: which is more powerful?
I think the numbers you are discussing are with 26 inch, custom barrels are they not?
The 140 Grain load is a bit of a stretch unless barrel length is at play. The load that seemed to be most out of the norm was actually the 160 grain. I just mentioned the 140 was also high to point out that the program he was using to calculate downrange energies do not add up his stated muzzle velocity. At 3350 FPS the downrange energies@ 450yds are 1906 FPE not the 2026 he stated based on the .485 BC of the Nosler BT. This is less than the 06 load that his post was trying to better. PS: Just remember how his post started "Not to stirr this up anymore" I have a feeling DMurphy is cracking up that we are butting heads by beating on this dead horse again. |
RE: which is more powerful?
I think the numbers you are discussing are with 26 inch, custom barrels are they not? |
RE: which is more powerful?
Here is the information you guys are discussing in regards to my numbers.
My gun is a factory stock Winchester 70 with a 26" barrel. The shooting results were from an F-1 Beta (I think, it belongs to a friend) measured at 15 feet in front of the muzzle. Tests were done at 6500 feet ASL with a temperature of around 80 degrees. The friend with the chrony was testing the same basic load in his Rem 700 with a 24" barrel and was getting about 120 to 170 fps less than I was. The ballistics program I use is the Point Blank program which is available on the web. It may not be perfect but so far my shooting results at various ranges out to 200 yards have been nearly identical to the calculated results of the program. The results I posted were based on the velocities I recorded but with the altitude adjusted to 1000 feet since that is the elevation mentioned in an earlier post. At 6500 feet the 140 load calculates 2076fpe at 500 yards. That is based on the Point Blank program using .485BC, 140GR BT at 3350fps, 70 degrees. My neck sized only cases will hold about 74 to 75gr of 7828. The load uses 71.5gr of 7828 and a CCI LRM primer.I had tried the Win LRM primers but the velocity spreads were larger and the CCI's gave me tighter spreads and on average about 15fps more velocity. The 160 Accubond load I am still working up. The posted info was based on 3200fps, all else was the same except the BC. I also have a load for the 175 Corlokt(?) that averages about 3000fps using 69.5gr of 7828. At 450 yards it still has 2100fpe, again all else as stated. I hope this answers your questions. |
RE: which is more powerful?
I just mentioned the 140 was also high to point out that the program he was using to calculate downrange energies do not add up his stated muzzle velocity. At 3350 FPS the downrange energies@ 450yds are 1906 FPE not the 2026 he stated based on the .485 BC of the Nosler BT The results I posted were based on the velocities I recorded but with the altitude adjusted to 1000 feet since that is the elevation mentioned in an earlier post. At 6500 feet the 140 load calculates 2076fpe at 500 yards. That is based on the Point Blank program using .485BC, 140GR BT at 3350fps, 70 degrees. |
RE: which is more powerful?
ORIGINAL: Vapodog ORIGINAL: Scott Gags Your right but it is still fun. |
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