SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
01-28-2009, 06:19 PM
#11
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Mont County, Pa
Posts: 7,368
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
ORIGINAL: sproulman
red dot scopes are really not expensive, i just looked at one for 29 dollars with 3 dots.
its the scopes you have on it now, cost of that scope that is problem.
ORIGINAL: Wyvern Crossbow
Basicly you are stuck with either a red dot non magnified scope or an open peep site. The problem is that many new crossbows have no provision for a peep site so your only option is a red dot which is a pain for many people with eye problems...kinda stupid
Wyvern
Basicly you are stuck with either a red dot non magnified scope or an open peep site. The problem is that many new crossbows have no provision for a peep site so your only option is a red dot which is a pain for many people with eye problems...kinda stupid
Wyvern
its the scopes you have on it now, cost of that scope that is problem.
It's staying on though! They'll have to make an example out of me.
01-29-2009, 07:06 AM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
ORIGINAL: early in
Yea, I think my Horton 4x32 was right around $100.[:@][&o]It's staying on though! They'll have to make an example out of me.
ORIGINAL: sproulman
red dot scopes are really not expensive, i just looked at one for 29 dollars with 3 dots.
its the scopes you have on it now, cost of that scope that is problem.
ORIGINAL: Wyvern Crossbow
Basicly you are stuck with either a red dot non magnified scope or an open peep site. The problem is that many new crossbows have no provision for a peep site so your only option is a red dot which is a pain for many people with eye problems...kinda stupid
Wyvern
Basicly you are stuck with either a red dot non magnified scope or an open peep site. The problem is that many new crossbows have no provision for a peep site so your only option is a red dot which is a pain for many people with eye problems...kinda stupid
Wyvern
its the scopes you have on it now, cost of that scope that is problem.
It's staying on though! They'll have to make an example out of me.
i bet e-bay will be busy with 4x32 scopes after april and RED DOT ones will soar.
i wonder if you could take a 4 power scope and put a lense over the outside to turn it into a 1 power.
really, i dont see a advantage between a 4 x and 1x other than for bad eyes, it helps see better.
PGC heard about hunters going to shoot over 40 yds and that is why they took off scopes on crossbows that are above 1x.
this was on tv i heard today, i missed it but heard that was said.
02-14-2009, 12:26 AM
#13
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW PA
Posts: 92
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
I wonder if anyone has considerd maybe this ridiculouslaw (no scope on a crossbow used in PA)is just more ammunitionin theGame Commission's arsenalto stop and botherhunters? More fines....
I hope it can somehow be changed in April. I mean it really is non-sense if you think about it. I'm sure the archery sportsman groups might of had something to do with this also. Many feel Archery is "their season". What get's me is how many deer are walking around the wood's with scars from archery hunters or crawled off and died somewhere from bad shots. I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD AN ARCHERY HUNTER IS EVENTUALLY THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE A BAD HIT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. Heck if you look close on many of these hunting shows it's like every other deer has a healed scar from a previous non-lethal hit in the shoulder or just below the spine mid back. Facts are if you take two experienced shooters (one with a compound andanother with a comparable, fast, quality compound especially with a scope) a crossbowis going to be more accurate and lethal especially with a scope. Your taking a big variable out of the equation and that's human error. Crossbow's are a lot lessprone to inaccuracy do to a shooters form, effects of the cold, equipment malfunction, fit, etc. A huge avantage of crossbows is also they can be shot by others in the family unlike most compounds. This gives more people the opportunity to participate in the sport especially younger hunters, women and older people.
Let's face it, many archery hunters do not want to share the woods with others shooting crossbows especially with accurate scopes. Were already 30 years behind the times if you look ata neighboring state. How many huge trophy class whitetails have been taken the last few years in with CROSSBOWS in this state.... Crossbows are a great weapon if used properly and of coursepractice makes perfect.
I think it's also absured to suggest crossbows will cause in increase in poaching. What a joke..... Makes me wonder if someone that actually believes thismight participate in this illegal activity that makes ALL sportsman look bad. Like WYVERN said poachers are not going to be looking around the woods for a crossbow kill deer with a flashlight when they carrya .22 mag.
I'm trying not to offend fellow hunters& sportsman but I know it's probably inevitable. If people want to complain about unfair hunting weapons they only need to look at using Muzzlelaoders (another word for rifle) used in the early season. Now that's an unfair advantage if there ever was one.
I hope it can somehow be changed in April. I mean it really is non-sense if you think about it. I'm sure the archery sportsman groups might of had something to do with this also. Many feel Archery is "their season". What get's me is how many deer are walking around the wood's with scars from archery hunters or crawled off and died somewhere from bad shots. I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD AN ARCHERY HUNTER IS EVENTUALLY THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE A BAD HIT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. Heck if you look close on many of these hunting shows it's like every other deer has a healed scar from a previous non-lethal hit in the shoulder or just below the spine mid back. Facts are if you take two experienced shooters (one with a compound andanother with a comparable, fast, quality compound especially with a scope) a crossbowis going to be more accurate and lethal especially with a scope. Your taking a big variable out of the equation and that's human error. Crossbow's are a lot lessprone to inaccuracy do to a shooters form, effects of the cold, equipment malfunction, fit, etc. A huge avantage of crossbows is also they can be shot by others in the family unlike most compounds. This gives more people the opportunity to participate in the sport especially younger hunters, women and older people.
Let's face it, many archery hunters do not want to share the woods with others shooting crossbows especially with accurate scopes. Were already 30 years behind the times if you look ata neighboring state. How many huge trophy class whitetails have been taken the last few years in with CROSSBOWS in this state.... Crossbows are a great weapon if used properly and of coursepractice makes perfect.
I think it's also absured to suggest crossbows will cause in increase in poaching. What a joke..... Makes me wonder if someone that actually believes thismight participate in this illegal activity that makes ALL sportsman look bad. Like WYVERN said poachers are not going to be looking around the woods for a crossbow kill deer with a flashlight when they carrya .22 mag.
I'm trying not to offend fellow hunters& sportsman but I know it's probably inevitable. If people want to complain about unfair hunting weapons they only need to look at using Muzzlelaoders (another word for rifle) used in the early season. Now that's an unfair advantage if there ever was one.
02-14-2009, 05:43 AM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
fastflight, your dissertation is full of inaccuracies and generalizations, long on passion and short on thought. ALL sportsmen, regardless of weapon choice, always have a chance of making a bad shot. It's our job as ETHICAL hunters to do everything in our power to prevent that from happening, but stuff happens. Putting a scope on a crossbow makes it no less susceptable to the arrow striking the wrong place than an arrow from a bow using a peep and pin, no less susceptable to striking the wrong place than the bullet from a 7 mag rifle, shotgun slug or a patched ball from a muzzleloader.
Put a skilled compound shooter up against an equally skilled crossbow shooter any day of the week, and my money will be on the compounder to kick butt. For instance, it's a rare occurence for a crossbow shooter to finish the day at a 3D shoot with high score for the day. Usually, he's a pretty good clip down in the pack. Maybe you're right about the scarred deer, maybe some of the guys who are shooting bows aren't skilled enough and maybe those guys who don't go out and practice with their bows are probably better suited to using crossbows. However, if you insist on making that point then you are playing into the hands of those who say crossbows are only used by lazy, unethical slobs who don't have the dedication to do what's needed to be proficient with a 'real' bow. Real nice way to keep the debate rolling, keeping the opposition polarized and keeping crossbows out of bow seasons.
Take care when you start lobbing rocks at the other side because they have a tendency to rebound and do more damage to yourself than to them.
Put a skilled compound shooter up against an equally skilled crossbow shooter any day of the week, and my money will be on the compounder to kick butt. For instance, it's a rare occurence for a crossbow shooter to finish the day at a 3D shoot with high score for the day. Usually, he's a pretty good clip down in the pack. Maybe you're right about the scarred deer, maybe some of the guys who are shooting bows aren't skilled enough and maybe those guys who don't go out and practice with their bows are probably better suited to using crossbows. However, if you insist on making that point then you are playing into the hands of those who say crossbows are only used by lazy, unethical slobs who don't have the dedication to do what's needed to be proficient with a 'real' bow. Real nice way to keep the debate rolling, keeping the opposition polarized and keeping crossbows out of bow seasons.
Take care when you start lobbing rocks at the other side because they have a tendency to rebound and do more damage to yourself than to them.
02-14-2009, 06:58 AM
#15
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
ORIGINAL: fastflight1
I wonder if anyone has considerd maybe this ridiculouslaw (no scope on a crossbow used in PA)is just more ammunitionin theGame Commission's arsenalto stop and botherhunters? More fines....
I hope it can somehow be changed in April. I mean it really is non-sense if you think about it. I'm sure the archery sportsman groups might of had something to do with this also. Many feel Archery is "their season". What get's me is how many deer are walking around the wood's with scars from archery hunters or crawled off and died somewhere from bad shots. I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD AN ARCHERY HUNTER IS EVENTUALLY THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE A BAD HIT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. Heck if you look close on many of these hunting shows it's like every other deer has a healed scar from a previous non-lethal hit in the shoulder or just below the spine mid back. Facts are if you take two experienced shooters (one with a compound andanother with a comparable, fast, quality compound especially with a scope) a crossbowis going to be more accurate and lethal especially with a scope. Your taking a big variable out of the equation and that's human error. Crossbow's are a lot lessprone to inaccuracy do to a shooters form, effects of the cold, equipment malfunction, fit, etc. A huge avantage of crossbows is also they can be shot by others in the family unlike most compounds. This gives more people the opportunity to participate in the sport especially younger hunters, women and older people.
Let's face it, many archery hunters do not want to share the woods with others shooting crossbows especially with accurate scopes. Were already 30 years behind the times if you look ata neighboring state. How many huge trophy class whitetails have been taken the last few years in with CROSSBOWS in this state.... Crossbows are a great weapon if used properly and of coursepractice makes perfect.
I think it's also absured to suggest crossbows will cause in increase in poaching. What a joke..... Makes me wonder if someone that actually believes thismight participate in this illegal activity that makes ALL sportsman look bad. Like WYVERN said poachers are not going to be looking around the woods for a crossbow kill deer with a flashlight when they carrya .22 mag.
I'm trying not to offend fellow hunters& sportsman but I know it's probably inevitable. If people want to complain about unfair hunting weapons they only need to look at using Muzzlelaoders (another word for rifle) used in the early season. Now that's an unfair advantage if there ever was one.
I wonder if anyone has considerd maybe this ridiculouslaw (no scope on a crossbow used in PA)is just more ammunitionin theGame Commission's arsenalto stop and botherhunters? More fines....
I hope it can somehow be changed in April. I mean it really is non-sense if you think about it. I'm sure the archery sportsman groups might of had something to do with this also. Many feel Archery is "their season". What get's me is how many deer are walking around the wood's with scars from archery hunters or crawled off and died somewhere from bad shots. I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD AN ARCHERY HUNTER IS EVENTUALLY THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE A BAD HIT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. Heck if you look close on many of these hunting shows it's like every other deer has a healed scar from a previous non-lethal hit in the shoulder or just below the spine mid back. Facts are if you take two experienced shooters (one with a compound andanother with a comparable, fast, quality compound especially with a scope) a crossbowis going to be more accurate and lethal especially with a scope. Your taking a big variable out of the equation and that's human error. Crossbow's are a lot lessprone to inaccuracy do to a shooters form, effects of the cold, equipment malfunction, fit, etc. A huge avantage of crossbows is also they can be shot by others in the family unlike most compounds. This gives more people the opportunity to participate in the sport especially younger hunters, women and older people.
Let's face it, many archery hunters do not want to share the woods with others shooting crossbows especially with accurate scopes. Were already 30 years behind the times if you look ata neighboring state. How many huge trophy class whitetails have been taken the last few years in with CROSSBOWS in this state.... Crossbows are a great weapon if used properly and of coursepractice makes perfect.
I think it's also absured to suggest crossbows will cause in increase in poaching. What a joke..... Makes me wonder if someone that actually believes thismight participate in this illegal activity that makes ALL sportsman look bad. Like WYVERN said poachers are not going to be looking around the woods for a crossbow kill deer with a flashlight when they carrya .22 mag.
I'm trying not to offend fellow hunters& sportsman but I know it's probably inevitable. If people want to complain about unfair hunting weapons they only need to look at using Muzzlelaoders (another word for rifle) used in the early season. Now that's an unfair advantage if there ever was one.
the archery groups wanted it this way.
in one way, if the red dot scope would make for closer shot, i think it would be great,but will hunters take only a 30 yd shot with crossbow,I DOUBT THAT.
i had local muzzleloader shooters who bought their lyman flintlocks a week before the late season.
i was there.
they did not practice and i saw them 3 weeks later in woods.
they had eyes as big as golf balls,they said, SPROUL I MISSED 6 DEER IN 3 WEEKS RUNNING WITH THESE FLINTLOCKS
can you believe hunters are shooting at running doe and fawns with flintlocks at 50/to 150 yds, yes, 1 dad said to me,sproul they want me just to shoot, i aint doing it ,those deer were running and i could hardly see them
now, these same KNOTHEADS are going to be using crossbows this year here in pa.
god help wounded deer from these a holes..[:@]
02-14-2009, 07:04 AM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
arthur, respectfully,at 20 yds i will kick just about anyones butt with a crossbow vrs a compound.
i have every bow made, been at it for over 47 years, shoot at archery range,but i am NEW to crossbow and STILL will kick anyones butt with a compound.
after 20 shots, i will REALLY kick a compound shooters butt.
i have every bow made, been at it for over 47 years, shoot at archery range,but i am NEW to crossbow and STILL will kick anyones butt with a compound.
after 20 shots, i will REALLY kick a compound shooters butt.
02-14-2009, 07:10 AM
#17
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
I wish my shoulders would allow me to pick up my compound and take up the challenge, sproulman. I really like to drink the proceeds of a good shooting bet. And, as I usually share drinks with the vanquished, I'd be honored to down a couple with you.
02-14-2009, 07:54 AM
#18
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
I wish my shoulders would allow me to pick up my compound and take up the challenge, sproulman. I really like to drink the proceeds of a good shooting bet. And, as I usually share drinks with the vanquished, I'd be honored to down a couple with you.
I wish my shoulders would allow me to pick up my compound and take up the challenge, sproulman. I really like to drink the proceeds of a good shooting bet. And, as I usually share drinks with the vanquished, I'd be honored to down a couple with you.
at 1 time not too long ago, i would out shoot most compound shooters with my BLACK WIDOW recurve.
i was so good, i had to move my arrows from target to target so i would not spilt the arrows or vanes/feathers.
they could not get over it, me with simple recurve out shooting them with pins etc.i shot instintive,no sights,up and let fly concentrating on that little pencil size black dot on white paper.
but after about 20 shoots, oh my, i was thru,they kept on and smoked me bigtime.
with a crossbow crank, it brings string/arrow back to same spot real good,.
you are right, if you dont do same thing ,the same way with crossbow, it will be a little off dead center.
most of compound shooters i know, will not take shot at deer over 30 yds BUT for some reason,many think a crossbow can shoot 50 yds easy with 4x scope.[:@]
i believe its do to 2 things.
MARKETING, i heard there was show in cleveland that had a guy shooting in small circle at 80 yds easy with crossbow.
next thing is, DO CROSSBOW SHOOTERS PRACTICE LIKE A COMPOUND SHOOTER..
just my opinion,no.
so, they dont know yards in woods they are shooting,they think they just hold and shoot with the 50 yds line on top of back of deer.
how do we get this thinking out of their minds, if they dont practice, if they let their kids use same bow, yes that is talk now, buy 1 crossbow and let all kids use it and adults too.
i just wonder how many lawsuits will happen with crossbows that take tip of fingers off a 8 year old kid.
yes, kids and adults put their fingers on top of rail.
i have 65 year old friend who has tip of thumb off right now because he forgot it was on rail.
his thumb still has nerve damaged
he got excited trying to shoot a small doe
hey, i like a crossbow and people that use them responsible but MARKETING and THE NON PRACTICE really makes me mad.
i interviewd many crossbow users at our club.
MOST if not all have not taken over 15 shots with their crossbow and they had it for 3 years.
thats your average crossbow user.
most DONT want to break bow and after they shot dead center at 20 yds, they put it away.
this is what they tell me.
now, if compound usersgo to crossbows, I FEEL THEY WILL ALL CHANGE TO CROSSBOW from what i hear.
i think that group is responsible group and will take the 30 yd shot.
its these 90 day wonders that are KNOTHEADS,trust me, they will there , no practicing, letting others use bow,dont know yards,think its gun that can shoot 50 yds .
some even carry things to make them shoot better, CAN OF BEER AND PACK OF CIGS.
yes, that makes them better shooter.[:@]
02-14-2009, 03:09 PM
#19
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW PA
Posts: 92
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
I'm going to stick with my opinion above although it's obvioussome othersstrongleydisagree withwhat I said about not allowing SCOPES on crossbows in PA. It's nice to see there are some that agree not allowing scped crossbows fly's against common sense.
Like I said, I'm sure Archery Sportsman group's had some input on this stupid restriction to the legalization of crossbows in PA to handicap someone using them.
In relation to what you;"Arthur P" saidabove, "putting a scope on a crossbow makes it no less susceptable to the arrow striking the wrong place then an arrow from a bow using a peep & pin or a bullet from a 7mm rifle, shotgun slug or patched ball from amuzzleloader no less susceptable to striking the wrong place."
I'm sorry but I still have to disagree with this statement. First of all (as I said earlier) "Human Error" has much more influence on someone shooting a compound then a quality crossbow I don't care what type of sighting mechanism or peep.Ifyou look at an average number of shots taken (say 10) your going to get more consistantcy with a crossbow ON AVERAGE. I'm not talking about putting world class shooters up against one another. Lets keep this discussion related to the AVERAGE person that's out there using a bow or a crossbow. If this wasn't the case why do we have people saying they KNOW many guy's/gals that are already talking about getting rid of their compounds to buy a crossbow.
You also have to look at the New crossbows and the speed and kinetic energy they are putting out. Faster arrows with much higher kinetic energy equal better accuracy and more kill shots and less wounded deer ON AVERAGE overall.
Now, In relation to youranalogy ofa scoped Crossbow being no less susceptable to striking the wrong place then a rifle, shotgun slugor muzzleloader this statement doeshave some merit. You have to realize though the probability of wounding an animal with these type of percussion weapons and not recovering a deer is very, verysmall compared to a deer shot with a compound bow. I have been hunting for 30+ years and have NEVER lost a deer shot with a gun. I wish I could say the same with a bow and I consider myself an above average shot and tracker.
I still believe the newer qualitycrossbows are incredible weapons andcapable of much greater accuracy and killing ability (on average)and less chance of wounding or losing a deer then long bowsor compounds if used properly with adequate practice. I just think hamstringing people that want to use them by not letting them put a quality scope on one is the wrong logic. They would still be a 40 yard weapon. There are some guys out there that will shoot at a deer with a compound at 40 yards.
The law that was passed allowing the use of crossbows is way overdue in PA but the no scope thing is odd.
Like I said, I'm sure Archery Sportsman group's had some input on this stupid restriction to the legalization of crossbows in PA to handicap someone using them.
In relation to what you;"Arthur P" saidabove, "putting a scope on a crossbow makes it no less susceptable to the arrow striking the wrong place then an arrow from a bow using a peep & pin or a bullet from a 7mm rifle, shotgun slug or patched ball from amuzzleloader no less susceptable to striking the wrong place."
I'm sorry but I still have to disagree with this statement. First of all (as I said earlier) "Human Error" has much more influence on someone shooting a compound then a quality crossbow I don't care what type of sighting mechanism or peep.Ifyou look at an average number of shots taken (say 10) your going to get more consistantcy with a crossbow ON AVERAGE. I'm not talking about putting world class shooters up against one another. Lets keep this discussion related to the AVERAGE person that's out there using a bow or a crossbow. If this wasn't the case why do we have people saying they KNOW many guy's/gals that are already talking about getting rid of their compounds to buy a crossbow.
You also have to look at the New crossbows and the speed and kinetic energy they are putting out. Faster arrows with much higher kinetic energy equal better accuracy and more kill shots and less wounded deer ON AVERAGE overall.
Now, In relation to youranalogy ofa scoped Crossbow being no less susceptable to striking the wrong place then a rifle, shotgun slugor muzzleloader this statement doeshave some merit. You have to realize though the probability of wounding an animal with these type of percussion weapons and not recovering a deer is very, verysmall compared to a deer shot with a compound bow. I have been hunting for 30+ years and have NEVER lost a deer shot with a gun. I wish I could say the same with a bow and I consider myself an above average shot and tracker.
I still believe the newer qualitycrossbows are incredible weapons andcapable of much greater accuracy and killing ability (on average)and less chance of wounding or losing a deer then long bowsor compounds if used properly with adequate practice. I just think hamstringing people that want to use them by not letting them put a quality scope on one is the wrong logic. They would still be a 40 yard weapon. There are some guys out there that will shoot at a deer with a compound at 40 yards.
The law that was passed allowing the use of crossbows is way overdue in PA but the no scope thing is odd.
02-14-2009, 08:44 PM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: SCOPES ON CROSSBOWS IN PA.
Put a scope on a crossbow. Put a lazer sight on a crossbow. Put any kind of sight you want on a crossbow and there's still a HUMAN that's doing the aiming, cocking, loading and trigger pulling. As such, there is still human error and you cannot eliminate it. Nowhere in my post did I say a word about 'world class.' I said skilled, which I meant as something other than a rank beginner. Someone who knows how to shoot a bow.
As for the speed and energy of today's bows, so what? A fast miss is still a miss and all that energy does no good if it's not applied to the right spot.
Which is one argument that the opposing side constantly throws in our faces when they refer to our 'string guns.'
Is it better to have crossbows in PA's bow season with what you consider unnecessarily limited scope power rather than no crossbows at all? Are you going to cuss the game commission for letting crossbows get their toe in the door just because you can't use a 4X scope? I can understand that you could a bit ticked about having to buy a whole new sight for your crossbow, maybe not being able to zing away at 40 yards and having to stick to 20-30 yard shots, but jeez! That's like griping that someone gave you a new truck but it wasn't the exact shade of red that you wanted.
If you want to complain about stupid laws, come on down here to Texas, where drawlocks are legal on compounds but crossbows are still disabled-only.
As for the speed and energy of today's bows, so what? A fast miss is still a miss and all that energy does no good if it's not applied to the right spot.
I still believe the newer qualitycrossbows are incredible weapons andcapable of much greater accuracy and killing ability (on average)and less chance of wounding or losing a deer then long bowsor compounds if used properly with adequate practice.
I just think hamstringing people that want to use them by not letting them put a quality scope on one is the wrong logic.
If you want to complain about stupid laws, come on down here to Texas, where drawlocks are legal on compounds but crossbows are still disabled-only.