GrumpyTom

Sorry that your so ticked off about that they do sell a heavier arrow. An arrow that is safer for the shooter and the equipment. Not only that, but it is also more quiet.

Lets go to your anoligy of the car ............ Lets say the manufacture listed it's speed from 0-60 MPH was 3.5 seconds but they did their tests with RACING SLICKS but they sold the car with QUALITY ROAD SPORTTIRES. Everyone knows that the racing slicks will out preform the Road tires so the purchaser will not get from 0-60 in the 3.5 seconds. Does this mean that all vehical manufactures are misleading when they post their speed 0-60 ratios (They probually do not use slicks in their tests, but they will be tires which are not sold with the vehical). This comparison is alot closer to what is happening with the crossbow here then your 400HP as the horse power is there no matter what arrow you use just not the speed.

I guess you do not understand what Excalibur is about. They build crossbows for hunters by hunters. They hunt themselves so they understand that DEPENDABILITY is MOST IMPORTANT and therefore they sell their packages to reflect that. The speed they show or list is what the bow can get under normal shooting or usage without going below the minimal arrow weight. To me, there is nothing wrong with that no matter who company is. What does bother me is when a company lists a speed that was achived with an arrow below min. arrow weight, that is misleading if not fraud. The heavier arrow will quiet the bow. If the company was to list both the arrow speeds and noise level are they susposed to list the fastest speeds possible and the quietest level achived. If so, they will never achive both in the same setup as the heavier arrow will be slower, but more quiet.

Now strings can vary to a great degree. I am not sure how many Excalibur sells anymore but they have always said that the Dacron was again more quiet and less stressful on the bow. Also using the Dacron was more forgiving with new shooters with mistakes like dry fires and some older bows can't shoot newer strings (carved tips). What Excalibur sells in their packages is not to misslead the customer, but to lead them in a dirrection which is more dependable for the Equipment. The more dependable the product, the better not only Exclibur will look, but the whole crossbow world. When I first got into crossbows, the best, most reliable bow on the market was a Astro Daco and by todays standards a 12 pound trigger and awkward safety (had to push in while pulling the trigger) ........ well lets just leave that at that ........ Companies like Excalibur and Ten Point had a major battle to improve the image of crossbows as dependable accurate hunting equipment. I think that they have done a great job.

Wyvern Crossbow

"I guess you do not understand what Excalibur is about."

Sorry Tom but I think I have at least half a clue about what I am doing and I sell quiet a few Excals. You are missing my point here, I am not questioning any aspect of Excal other than what happens when I as a retailer have to deal with a customer that is missinformed about a product. I am not ticked off, just frustrated. You have the advantage of being one person who has done his homework and understands the advertized speeds on this bow are correct with the 350gr arrow and you have no issue either sacrificing speed when using the heavier arrow that comes with the bow or buying/building lighter arrows to achieve the speed they list. I have the disadvantage of getting phone calls from novices who read these posts and the adds and do not do their homework and expect 305fps from a bow that will only shoot 288 with the components they can buy from the manufacture. Is that drop in speed a big deal? Not to a deer, but to a consumer who is reading one thing and getting another it is a big deal. Here is what I have to deal with all the time:

"I was looking at either an Excal Phoenix or the TenPoint Profusion. They both shoot the same speed so which one should I get?" I now have to follow with "Well, they really dont shoot the same speed. If I custom make really light arrows for you and upgrade your string they will, but out of the box the Profusion will be faster". At that point I end up selling the Profusion because the customer generaly feels that they were lied to.Quality, dependability, whatever, at that point it matters very little the customer feels that Excals performance was fluffed (even though it can be achieved safely) and he then questions whatELSE may not be "correct" with Excalibur. Was the information on the string upgrade and light arrows there? Yes. Did they READ it??? NO!! Welcome to retail where the lowest common denominator sets the standard. Many people will not read that little footnote.

Now with vertical bows the IBO speeds are such crap that it is a joke. No "human" will shoot what they claim without either breaking the bow or making it so loud and shock filled as to be useless. Crossbows however have the advantage of being consistant in the way they launch an arrow.Crossbow customersseem to have more of an expectation that crossbows will shoot what they claim than vertical customers. That is where I have run into issues.

As far as the automotive analogy the engine one is a better one since HP ratings have to be certified by an independant company where performance of a given vehical can be greatly enhanced just by a good driver.

All I am saying is that if a company (TenPoint recurves included here mind you and probably Parker with THEIR new recurves next year) is going to claim a speed then supply the components that will allow that bow to achieve those speeds or list the speeds that can be achieve with the components you do supply.....its too late for the vertical industry but the crossbow end can easily set this inplace.

Wyvern

Moonkryket

They have done a great job. I dropped my Vortex out of my tree stand at 17 feet with literally no damage to it............................but the 350 grain arrow thing is still silly

smokepolehall

Wow DaGriz, your a wonderful person a class act! so you got a POS by your words. some how it seemed to have gotten lost being shipped back to dealer ! now your going off again on ppl. i really don't understand why you dislike everyone. Tis very sad i feel for you & i hope some happyness comes to you, have a good one.

GrumpyTom

Your correct that I am one person that does his homework on a product. When I got my first Excalibur crossbow (the orginalRelayer) a long time ago, I did alot of quick research into this company. I bought it dirrectly from Bill & Kathy and picked it up dirrectly from the Farm, where they first started out building the bows. Yes I paid more money then if I bought it from a store, but I wanted the personalcontact with the company which to this day still comes from them.

I can understand some of your frustration. You see, I have been putting up with novice questions on crossbows for a very long time. Some of these questions are lazy questions (not doing research or the proper reading) and others can be attribuated to the nonsense coming from the anti-crossworld which people tend to believe. I feel that I have the responsibility to teach because I know because I have been around this sport for a long time. I have said this before, The only dumb question is a question not asked! I have been trying to educate people on crossbows for many many years, even before I came onto the internet.

I still think that you are missing what Excalibur is about. They are not about Speed bows, they are about dependable, safe hunting equipment. Yes they say that their bows can achive a certain speed with a certain arrow and certain string, but they feel dependability and safety is more important so they sell standard equipment wich is on the safer side of things so you get a slower speeds. This is not saying that using the 350gr arrow or other string is not safe, IT IS. It is just that with the standard equipment there is more foregiveness if the user makes a mistake like a dryfire. Believe it or not ..... many people do dryfire their crossbows, even the exterianced shooters, not just the rookies. Maybe you should explain this to the new purchaser not just sorta misslead them yourself by saying because I know that Excalibur can achive their quoted speeds with hunting arrows.

It is unfortant but with crossbows being new (but only to a few, they have been around alot longer then compounds) but there will be those that either do not understand or do only believe what they hear from others (which many do not understand what they say). Because of this, we (you , me and others) have to educate people to the truths on crossbows. This includes not only the speed factors (what is needed to achive the fastest speeds safely, if speed is the factor) but the safety factor in maintaining a bow for an extreem long period of time. If this means explaing that the dacron string, heavier arrow will cause less stress on the equipment, then we need to state that.

Wyvern Crossbow

I really dont understand how you feel I am still "missing what Excalibur is all about"?? I fully understand the dependable, safe, quality thing, if I didnt I would not sell them.Those aspects were never in question and I most certainly do explain those qualities when noting the features of the bow.

"This is not saying that using the 350gr arrow or other string is not safe, IT IS. It is just that with the standard equipment there is more foregiveness if the user makes a mistake like a dryfire. Believe it or not ..... many people do dryfire their crossbows, even the exterianced shooters, not just the rookies. Maybe you should explain this to the new purchaser not just sorta misslead them yourself by saying
[blockquote]quote:

"Well, they really dont shoot the same speed.[/blockquote]
because I know that Excalibur can achive their quoted speeds with hunting arrows. "

Well, first off, snipping out that one part took my statement out of context. The full line is:
""Well, they really dont shoot the same speed. If I custom make really light arrows for you and upgrade your string they will, but out of the box the Profusion will be faster". "

That is not missleading, it is stating a fact and answering the customers question as to comparative speeds. If I took your suggestion and changed it to:
"well, the Profusion will be faster if you use Tenpoint arrows than the Excalibur will with their factory arrows and factory installed string. The reason is thatif and when you happen to dryfire theExcalibur, because unlike the Profusion it has no anit-dryfire mechanism, the heavier arrows and stretchier string will help prevent bow damage". Where is THAT an improvement??? Now I just scared the customer that the Excal can and will potentialy blow up on him if he is not extreamly careful and it is still not as fast as the Profusion using factory equipment.

Speed is not everything, and IMO, it is only a factor if the customer really feels it is. My problem is that in many instaces it is the first thing asked about and tip-toeing around what is listed and what will be achieved without resorting to custom built components is unnessicary. All it would take is a factory 350gr Excalibur arrow.

Wyvern

Dnk

Someone should bury that dead horse!

Wyvern Crossbow

Ya know, you are right...I am just talking Greek here anyway and facts dont seem to really matter.
Wyvern

GrumpyTom

Do you really think that the "anit-dryfire mechanism" is the best thing for a crossbow, if so then you need to take a second look at the issue. Excalibur chooses to not include the anti-dryfire because it is a mechanical device and Mechanical Devices should never be trusted in safety situations ( if you go though a safety coarse (electrical, mechanical ect)and trust a mechanical device for your safety, witout locking out, you will fail around here). You see, mechanical devices do have a tendicy in time to fail, when and were noone will ever know so it is better to develop safe shooting practices right from the beginning and not rely on a device. These devices are also something else which can go wrong with the bow. KISS method...... Keep It Simple.

You are correct that if the customer wants speed, that for him that is the important factor, but your blank statement that they are missleading the customer because factory equipment they can't get their advertised speeds is just plain silly. I contacted a location today and asked if I could get an Excalibur Crossbow, and arrows from them to achive the advertised speeds. The answer was yes but they would have to sell after market arrows (not excalibur brand), he would substitute to a different string& 100gr headsto go with the lighter weight, but everything was still safe to shoot. There was no need for the seller to get into deep conversation about this or that, only that the manufactur sold heavier weighted arrows and not the lighter but he carried the lighter arrows in the store. He did not tell me that the lighter arrow would make the bow more loud or that what was the reason Excalibur sold their bows with the Dacron or heavier arrows, he just wanted to fill my order to achive the rated speeds, there was no problem for his store.

I guess my training in SAFETY, that becomes the most important fact for me ............ SAFETY FIRST

Wyvern Crossbow

Yep...you are right...Excalibur is the greatest thing since sliced bread and I need to change my approach to consumer questions. Argument done....

Wyvern