How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Shooting a Pheonix with 20"EastonCarbon Power Bolts which I think are 400gr. and using 100gr. points. In the best of all worlds I could be shooting 305 fps following apparent manufacturers recomendations of minimum arrow weight. Do they have a spine recomendation? Without a Chronagraphcan I estimate arrow speed ect. downrange? Oh yeah. How much do the carbon arrows that came with the right stuff pack weigh? I am not really concerned about top speed as I can't see the beast ducking an arrow at 30 yards and short range foot pounds are nice too.
Is it wrong for me to love my bow this much?

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

If you are going to be able to figure energy, you must have a chrono, the formula is velocity squared times mass(weight of bolt) divided by 450240 that will give you ft/lbs, all things being equal, that will give you penetration....Do not be fooled by the makers claims of speed, most of "them" lie to bring in more customers............The ones that have been the closesest to their claims have been Excalibur and Bear both of these bows have actually shot faster for me thru the chrono.If fact both shot(Bear340&Exomag) almost the same, both were over 370fps with Golt Tip Lazer2 bolts with carbon inserts and carbon bolt endsand 75g points.......

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Don't quote me but i think i read that Excal carbon II's weigh about 430gr. with the 100gr. pt. I spect they put 75gr. head on to get the 305 from phoenix. I have the Phoenix myself and shoot 2219's with 100gr heads and i est.272 in speed. I don't have a chrony,but that would be a fair call on my setup. It will get'em from 1 to 40 yds.[:o]:D

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

I can shed a little light on this one. Excals stock arrows weigh 350 gr w/ 100 gr points.Using 75 gr points on them is not a good idea because you are going to be under their minimum weight requirements and it is really bad for your bow.

Jq7: Was that a typo on "carbon inserts"?? I am/was not aware of any inserts that are not either aluminum or brass.

Planter: you can come real close to figureing your speed by taking the advertised [and true] 305 fps and subtracting for changes. Example: going from FFF string to Excel = minus3-5 fps. Using a heavier arrow, subtract another 1 fps for every 5 gr increase in arrow weight. I'm shooting 20" LII's, 4" vanes, brass inserts, 100 gr points, weight 431 gr. w/ Excel string in my Phoenix. So, I've lost about 18-22 fps, which is what my "speed ring" on V-zone agrees with. Trust me, you'll never miss those fps and the benefits of those 431gr. arrows are numerous. As far as I know there is no spine issue w/ carbons. Hope this helps.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

awshucks......Have been selling Excaliburs and a few other brands(including Gold Tip arrows and bolts) longer than I might want to say...Carbon inserts have been around about 15 years, taking weight off the front end stiffens the shaft(mostly for archery applications) The Lazer2 bolt accepts 2117 inserts and if you look around you cay still find a few....I do not like the insert that comes with the Lazer2 bolts(they weigh almost 100g) so I use either the carbon or a regular 2117 insert.....

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

JQ7: Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. How much do carbon inserts weigh for GT LII's?? With your set-up you described that gets 370 fps outta the Emax can you tell me the total aarow weight?? Thanks for the info, never met somebody I couldn't learn something from.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

If any of you are in the area of Heber Springs AR PM me and we will set up a time and get out the chrony. For the info of anyone that might be interested my 10 point[ 185# limbs]gets 312 with out thevibration dampenersand 290 with all the goodies and 2219's with 100gr heads. Lee

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

And if you look for the there are instructions and balistic calulaters on the internet several on this page
http://home.att.net/%7Esajackson/ke.html
http://home.att.net/%7Esajackson/archery_physics.html
http://home.att.net/%7Esajackson/techinfo.html
Have fun. Lee

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

So... if I am shooting 400gr Eastons with a 100gr tip I am shooting a log. Should I drop my arrow weight down a bit with the Pheonix oram I OK? Arrow still seems to be cooking right along. It is nice not having arrows cut to length and just grabbing a handfull and at $5 a pc it is not a bad deal considering I am paying at least a buck a round for rifle ammo and yah can't use them again. The place I get the 400gr Eastons is a10pt dealer so thedraw weight seems alright for the arrow.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Planter: Are you sure about the arrow weight? Seems like 400 w/ a 100 gr tip would be more likely. I'm reading you're at 500 total, which very well can be my error.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

OK i just weighed 2 of my arrows both 2219's both 20" long both alum. inserts both 100 gr.pt. 1st. one has 5" vanes weight is 493.5 gr. 2nd. one has 5"feathers and it weighs 474.0 a grand total of 19.5 gr. less. They are knocking on the 500 gr. mark, vanes more than feathers. [:o]

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Ok i went and weighed 2 of my arrows, both are 2219's alum. 20" long alum. inserts 5" one of eachvanes and feathers. 100 gr. pt. on each, vanes 493.5 gr. and feathers 474 gr. Heavy ain't they.[:o]:)

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

awshucks.....Here is the breakdown,total bolt weight 325g with 75gfield tipor broadhead (75g Rocket Wolverine or 75g Miniblaster depending on what I grab that day) at least double-banded because of extreme acceleration of the bolt, I get 373fps that is 100.4 ftlbs of energy. You can see I do not have penetration problems. The bow is Truglow2x red dot equipped(great sight, nice prices also) that is set 1.5ins high at 25 yds and a little over 3ins low at 50yds(I do not recommend shooting that far). But I do not have any range estimation problems from 0 to 40yds....Lazer2 brass insert 100g, 2117 alum insert 27g, carbon insert8g, 2117 alum bolt butt 25g, Gold Tip Laser2 bolt butt 25g...No problems with any breakage or string problems with any of the three bows, actually the Bear( Buckmaster Max-point)is quieter than either of the Excaliburs and I seem to shoot that bow a little better. Hope that answers your questions...

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

JQ7: Thanks for taking the time to tell me/us that info. WOW that is a really flat trajectory!! Sounds like ya got a couple of winners there. Hope ya get a freezer full!

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

So is it being said that Barnet ,, Horton ,, Tenpoint ,, and others are lying about the FPS their bows will shoot??
could you provide us with some data to support this ?? JQ7??

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Naw just being optimistic, and using lighter arrows. They can afford to replace set of limbs.:D

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

I've never checked the fps either actual or claimed on the seven or so xbows I've had, but the air rifle mfgs have the same "speed wars". I do know alot about their claims. They use an ultra light pellet to get the advertised fps and while their speed claims maybe true, the combination of high velocity and ultra light pellet are generally useless in terms of accuracy or hunting ability.

I'm a classic example of why there are speed wars. When I got back into xbows this go around lol, I opened the cataloge and went for the highest fps for the lowest price. Then next day ordered my Emax, which I really like, got a little smarter and got the Phoenix which I really like better than the Max.

Since a 150# pull Excal Vixen at "about" 286 fps will give you a pass-thru on deer, I choose accuracy over speed, and think we all probably have enough of both regardless of brand or model.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

The only bow of which I have no information on their alleged "speed" results is the Great Lakes(never held or shot one)Now I have sold a few of the others(Horton,Barnett,which are English companies) and Ten-Point which was someone that was at Horton(so I was told) and left rather abruptly.The Ten-Point is a nice improvement over the other two....But back to their "speed claims" I have never even come close to their claims thru my chrono, with the bolt they said the test was done with...Example, last year I sold a Barnett Revolution(could not talk him into the extra 100$ for either the Excalibur or Bear) they claimed 345fps,130ftlbs+or-a few(that would be a 500gbolt) with the 500gbolt the bow shot a little under 290fps with 90ftlbs, a slight "mistake" on their part...But Barnett is not alone in the "speed claim business"..........................

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Faltness of trajectory needs to be balanced with a certain amount of weight.TO light well think of a BB start out fast like 6oo fps but an arrow will pass it up with in deer range and look at the differance in penatration.
Lee

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

JQ7 still not seeing any data to support your claims ,, just your claims that TenPoint and others are lying about what FPStheir bows will shoot,, so just what kind of speeds did you get through your crono when you shot them and what models were they? would like to see some true hard data not just a claim that x brand did not shoot what they claimed?? I know one of these companies and seriously doubt they are lying about what their bows will shoot.. I am sure not every crossbow is going to shoot what the manufacturer claims it will,, but would like to see what kind of speeds you are getting from the bows you are claiming the manufacturers are lying about theis FPS..

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

JQ7,

What speeds are you getting out of the TenPoint bows? We do random tests about every week and we are within 5 fps+/- on nearly every bow. While I agree that there is some serious exageration on speeds by some companies, I am confident that it is not us. We try very hard to give the consumer accurate information on our bows.
I, like htoler, would like you to be able to back up your claims if you are throwing my employer under the bus.

Thanks,
Randy Wood
Sales Manager
TenPoint Crossbows

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Htoler: While yer waiting...LOL What weight bolts did you get w/ yer Pro Elite? I think lie is a little too strong a word here. If you read some of the various mfg'ers ads you'll see phrases like "capable of xxx fps" or "rated at xxx fps". Excal dropped the advertised fps on their Emax from 355 to 350. I don't know why, nor do I care, but would bet someone whined about a fps or three. What really matters imho is Kinetic energy. Trajectory and being aware of your personal set-up's is also important. You can get close to the same k.e. with a tad heavier tad slower arrow as w/ a little lighter and faster arrow. Your k.e. tells you what to expect for penetration, again my humble opinion, but nearly all the set-ups described here are fro sure pass thru's on deer, prolly more.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

When you are talking bb's to hunting bolts you are comparing apples to oranges...BB's(couple of grains), very little or almost no ftlbs and no "sharp" point to speak about, hunting bolts 325 to over 500g and usually a very "sharp" point installed(and sometimes over 100ftlbs of energy).....Remember your physics, an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force, there is no such thing as a "spent" arrow or bolt, as long as they are in motion they are capable of massive damage to tissue bearing animals.................As far as giving you a web-sit to look at for speed results I do not know of any. I gave you an example in the other response I wrote(that being the most recent), Archery and hunting related items including long guns and black powder rifles have been my life for over 22 years. In that amount of time I have shot almost everything(except Great Lakes products)thru the chrono and from experience have seen alot of manufactures that do not "exactly" tell the truth. Sorry I can not be any more specific than that(and I did say that Ten-point made a good bow).

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

I have a very old Hunter [they changed the name to 10 point]with a set of the first batch of limbs @185# I also have a chrony and it says I am getting 310 with a 20 inch 2219 it shoots real flat for 30 yds which is what I consider the real test.It drives an arrow through a deer and 6 to 8 inches into the ground in all the years I have hunted with it I have never lost or missed a deer; what more could you ask???! Lee

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

So you have no hard data to support your claims?? nor can you give us any of the speeds you were getting from various crossbows ,, you made the claim that only 2 manufactures were giving accurate FPS ratings for their crossbows,, and that the others gave false info of their crossbows cabilities,,
I could care less about guns air rifles BB`s or bullets.. what bothers me is someone claiming that manufactures are making false claims about their crossbows without being able to provide any hard data to support their claims.. other than to say the one I shot didnt shoot as fast as they claimed it does..
how about posting some data as to what the different crossbows shot thry your crono ???

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

This has been a great thread.Not only was my original question answered Ihave been able to learn a little as well. You folks seem to know your $&*# although withdiffering opinions which is great. Maybe I will just keep using the off the shelf Eastons as they fly just fineand I am guessing that they will do the job. The Pheonix shoots better than I do anyway, just like my guns. Oh Yeah, the Easton site says 10.5 grs per inch, 43grs for the carbon insert and 37grs fot the nock.I could have sworn the box said 400gr. Must have been a brain fart.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Planter I must apologias I have taken this offtopic.. because I disagreeded with what someone posted ,, in the future I will try to take that private instaed of sidetracking someones post.. again I apologias..

and if the easton arrows are working for you why change?? if its not broke dont fix it.. JMO

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Must have ruffled a few feathers here....If you have not seen manu's tell big "un-truths"(we must not mention lies) then your experience in the Archery industry must be quite limited........As far as "throwing " your employer under the bus, I do not think I did that, Ten-Point makes a good product(fit and finish is excellent). If you want a recent example I will give you one, a few months ago a customer wanted a dozen bolts for his Elite which he had bought from a friend, sold him Gold Tip Lazer2 bolts(total bolt weight415g) a lot lighter than the 2 bolts(more than slightly bent) he had which were 2219's. Asked him if he wanted to shoot thru the chrono(which by the way is a Custom Speed Tach, no cheepo here) first shot 301fps,second 301,third 300 I think that would be 301 average.......Is that bow supposed to shoot 313fps(I think that is what I read in your ad)???????????????????????????

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

MY MY MY, hope no ones blood pressure got to high on this post! We all need to play together nicely. No i don't have a chrony, maybe someday! I can and will hijack a thread and quick. Now to the real deal so if a company fudges on the fps a little fer their Xbows, what does it really matter! You pick the Bow that you liked and thats what counts. Yers maybe actually faster than mine, but even with mine shooting say 272 fps. Mine with those lumbering 2219's will punch a big hole into the deer and out the udder side. Plus i will have go chase it down on the other side use up my fat reserve during the fall and winter and we all know that may be bad and make it hard fer meto make it thru the winter![8D][:-][:o];)

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Well all I know is my QX 4Elite Ten Point Crossbow I bought in 2004, shot 316, 315, 316, 317, 316 after the scope was centered at the pro shop I purchased it from. That's good enough for me and I couldn't care any less if there are faster bows or slower bows. Mine shoots like the money I paid for her. I love her dearly. People buy what they want, wheather it's the best or not, they like it enough to buy it. If poor old farts like me worried about energy, drop, and speed, we'd drink some Gerritol, take some vitamins andshift to 3rd gear on our four wheelers.
Anyway, JMO
BBO

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

BBO: Well said!! I've sent a pic of my bud Tom w/ three mounts into cyber space, all three scored over 170 Boone and Crocket, two of which were taken w/ a crossbow [no name today lol] that started out w/ 286 fps, lowered some by string and arrow weight change. The third was a gun kill, but I've been told that the odds of one person taking 3 deer over 170 are 16 million to one!! It's all much ado bout nothing. Nothing will beat being familiar w/ your equipment. I read a post recently on another forum where a fellow xbower only could afford a xbow I consider to be one step above a boat anchor, yet he's taken two or three deer w/ it. IMHO, now's the time to practise and get your ranges down for the fall hunting. Don't forget we got a contest going on!! I'm glad he's now a teen-ager, woulda hated to get waxed by a kid! LOL

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

JQ7 you are claiming that a manufacturer is misleading their customers based on the results of shots fired from a used crossbow? how old was it?? what kind of shape was it in?? when was the last time it had been tuned ??
and you are talking what 12 fps??

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Ok, I've been trying to stay out of this but.............. all I'll say is that I think there are pencil pockets in order here. Like who cares? I wish I found myself that interesting. LOL! How inept must one be in the shooting and hunting department to seek out the flatest trajectory? Buddy said it well. Buddy you might not be young or good looking but you got it right! Pass the Gerritol!

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

htoler, You really do not need to PM me,unlike you I have read "all" of your posts on this thread.Buy the way that Elite was a 2005 model(185lbs) and it was in tune,with a set of Limbsavers on it. Sorry that I did not write down every time I shot a bow or crossbow or rifle or pistol thru the chrono(I will try to be better at that in the future). And your rant about air rifles,bb's,guns,and etc,etc,etc,my response about "bb's,was not in response to you, it was in response to another person on this topic....If anything Ten-Point should be thankful for I was one of the people who helped get a crossbow season in Maryland(limited as it is).So I will accept a thank you FROM THEM THRU YOU.............A person should shoot whatever he or she is comfortable with, plain and simple......I am sure "most" of you shoot either rifles or slug guns and I am also sure(hopefully so) you sight them in, and trajectory plays a large part of that. Archery equipment is far more critical, if I had a quarter for everytime some one told me they missed because they thought the deer or whatever was 20 and they used their 30 yard pin or vice-versa, I would be wealthy.Try to be the best possible shot you can, our industry DOES NOT need any more bad publicity.......................................An d to Buddy, I got a kick out of your response, I thought every old cogger took their Geritol(I do) and I did not know my Atv had 3rd gear( see ignorance is bliss)

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

JQ7: Hey!! Thanks for your posts, I for one learned a few things, and I appreciate your efforts to enhance and further the xbow movement. We tend to be a little more light hearted here for the most part. Keep the ifo and your thoughts coming! Most of us already knew the fps ads are like the gas mileage stickers on new vehicles LOL. What the heck does this Geritol stuff do anyhow?

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

I stayed out of this one and boy it was fun to watch!! You seam like a very good debater and able to keep it cool! I will say you must be wrong about the hortons though! I know they would ever fudge their numbers!!:D:eek: LOL. The whole post seemed very good and your right about people saying how many deer they have missed because of miss judged yards and such. That is why I only shoot at twenty yards because I suck at judgement after that. Also don't know if it was said before but welcome to the CB forum!!

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

JQ7 I pm`ed you so as to not continue a heated debate on the forum,, and I did read all of your post thanks for calling me a lier,, and in your very first post you used the word lie.. as for me I will not put much into what you have to say since you were only able to provide info on one bow shot,, and then didnt even bother to ask the manufacturer if this was comon for their bows,, maybe their was a problem with the Elite that your customer bought I would be willing to bet that if your customer was to contact TenPoint this isshue would be addressed..by any chance do you know who makes the arrows for TenPoint?? I do... check into that and let us know who makes them.. anyway welcome to the forum I guess a heated debate now and then can be a good thing it can bring out some good info that might not normally come out..

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

y'all don't stop as i am getting into this here so called debate. All of these fast compound xbows that cost over a grand,[:o][:'(]. Why they can't hold a candle to the famous and great Excalibur's!:D:D[:-][8D][&:]Tell me who has won all the shooting championships fer past half dz. years, EXCALIBUR!;)Thats right the old recurve type xbow. Whoowee ain't that enough to chap someones a$$. HAHAHA! I just love it, lets go folks get it right and tight! Mine can shoot better than i can, don't even shoot at end cap on arrow, can you spell Robinhood!:D

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

This is a tad off topic, forgive me, but I've had all I can take. Htoler, you have the Cadillac of compound crossbows, beyond a doubt. The 10 pt Pro-Elite is the undisputed ultimate. It has features that as far as I know aren't available on any other xbow, a dry-fire inhibitor, a grip safety and an automatic trigger safety that goes on when you cock the bow w/ the Acudraw. You also paid for all of these features. You also probably got a hard case w/ your set-up. I didn't get any of that w/ my two Excals. Didn't want it or need it. I've been putting a Win. Mod 97 on safe once I rack a shell into it for over 40 years, so I personally have no trouble w/ the manual safety on Excals. Bought a double rifle case at Mal-Wart for $18 that will transport my admittedly more bulky choice in Excals. However, I'm going to point out to you that I have less [not much] money tied up in both of my bows than you do in your choice. You have an Acudraw, at $200 or so, I have a couple of rope cockers for $19 each. Before anyone wants to debate a rope cocker vs. an Acudraw, I'm telling ya that I get more accuracy from them than I'm capable of using. I don't have to have my bows serviced or stuff changeds by Excal, I do it myself, which also opens up possibilities for me to tinker. I may be or not may not be your average xbower. The point I'm trying to make is we are all different. I will put either of my two Excals up against any hunting xbow made for accuracy. Don't care about mfgs claims, my proof is in the pudding and the freezer. And, I'll be the first to tell ya, if I get another xbow, it will be a 10 pt. They are well made and have an excellent reputation. You got what YOU wanted, we got what WE wanted. It all can be good w/o being the same. There is no One Best.

RE: How to figure down range velocity and energy??
 

Hmmmmm I guessing that most of us should go out and peg some grackles, that would put all of us in a good mood! And yup Henry and Dan, you're both good men! Milke you are a poop stirer, my kinda guy! Now where is Squirrel????