Future of the Crossbow
 

What do you the future will be like for the crossbow? Will it have the same acceptance it has of the modern compound vertical bow. My dream is to see crossbow huntersgo to the field side by side the vertical hunters during archery season.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Its accepted here in Ohio and it catching on in other states. I think in other states people talk down on them only because they are not legal and dont get to use them so some of them talk them down out of envy. I am not trying to act like an indian or be manly and say I do it the hard way, I just like the long season and not geting shot by all the gun hunters. A guy at work moved here fromIL. about five years ago and made fun of me andthe guys a work and said we must be handicap. Well when it came time to update his bow and he bought a CB and loves it.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Hotburn76
This is not to give you a hard time or bait you but what do you mean by "act like an indian" I've never heard that expression before.

I hunt in Ontario Canada were I only see the vert bow people (and the ususal antis) look down on us.
I think that as others become educated about the difficulties of hunting with a xbow and limitations of the xbow they (esp vert bow people) will start accepting the fact that we do not have the awesome advantage they think we do. It is imperative that we as xbow hunters act beyond reproach in each and every way possible and educate people by allowing the interested to see how much fun this sport is.
Just one man's opinion.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Personally, I prefer a compound bow...that's just me! However, I think a lot of people are under the false impression that crossbows are as accurate as rifles. I'm sure they require less skill than a "vertical" bow, but it isskill, nonetheless. The fact that they are easier to shoot will make the woods a little more crowded though!
Someday I may have no choice but to hunt with a crossbow. I'll be damn glad to have one then!

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

I like my compound as well but when it gets colder the xbow is king. Easier to kill humanely with less screw ups and the guys who don't shoot as well as they should will wound less. But NCYnakee don't wait till you have to do it now when you can enjoy it more!!!

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

yes I prefer the compound but I guess in super cold the crossbow would be great and it does require practice and knowledge too!

What states right now allow crossbow other then with a disability? I know my home state of Ohio does.[8D]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

The compound bow was just as controversial in it's day as the crossbow is now , and look at what the currently dominant archery system is .

Indiana allows their use for all game except for deer during our early archery period , you can take deer with it during the late archery period only for now due to pejudice against them by the vert bow crowd . This is changing however , our DNR is looking harder at crossbow use during the EA period now that they are in a financial pinch and nearly all of the surrounding states have liberalized them .

RB , you and I share the same dream . Be patient , it's just a matter of time before it comes true .

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Yes i was around in 1974 when the controversy over the compound and the hatred for it. Now you are right, it is the predominant and like another thread in bowhunting, they get faster and faster, 80% let-off and basically easier to shoot. I use one myself so if that is what they want and it is legal. But i never understood the controversy over the crossbow!
Bet some of the ones that are griping are ones that wanted to use a compound bow........... it just seems funny that instead of working together, cooperating we are doing exactly what the antis want, keeping each other from hunting! [&:]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

JLmoore1956
Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!! You hit the nail on the head. As long as we as hunters and shooters act like a disfunctional family we will be like single links in a chain. What WE need is the public and the politicians to try to use a crossbow to see our short comings in using them like Star Trek lazers.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Well that is a different way of putting it, dysfunctional, but I have to wonder if those arguing against crossbows, fellow hunters realize how much they are supporting the anti-hunting agenda. A good politican could get ahold of it and say, "see even hunters agree" then there goes crossbow, then the traditionalist maybe get into it with compound bow, "see even hunters agree" and before long we keep loosing more and more space...... believe me, they think it won't happen, but once we pit ourselves against our selves, guess who has won! [:@]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Michigan now allows CB's to be used during the gun deer season, but under a gun license. During the archery season, CB's are only legal for hunters with disabilities.

IM jaybe :)

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Now that sounds reasonable, at least it is a start. Maybe if it catchs on it will have its own season......[8D]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Xbows have been legal as far back as I know here in Arkansas,we can use them during any deer season but have to follow the rules for that season.I would estimate 20 to 25 percent of the bow hunters use them. What most people don't realize is that there are times when draging that big heave awarked Xbow through the woods is not an advantage since modern compounds average higher speed than the average cross bow. Personally I like crossbows and I have use every kind of bow I know of. I just happened to like long bows and cross bow.Lee

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

well i bought a crossbow in Ohio, well traded for one over 20 years ago, it was a Horton with the clamp down screw, i was dissappointed but i see they have come aways. Wonder what they would be like to shoot now! I belive however they are illegal to own in NY unless handicapped!

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

There's a compound faster than this ?
Excalibur Exomax
I haven't seen a compound crossbow faster than that . I know what's on my Xmas list for this year , and it ain't a Matthews ! :D

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

I got to thinking about the predice against Xbows and I think it goes clear back to the Knight in armor days, the knights hated them because the commeners could polk a hole in there armor with them.Lee

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

The knights also looked down on the longbowmen of the day too since the archers were also commoners and therefore not "worthy" of meeting a noble knight on the field of battle , especially since they didn't fight hand to hand unless they had to preferring to run instead . The longbowmen looked down on crossbowmen because they felt that since they had to practice from childhood to achieve proficiency and the crossbowmen didn't that they weren't "real" archers . Sound familiar ?

I crack up when a guy with a tricked out compound says that to me and then brags about how many Robin Hoods he has , Robin shot a longbow and wouldn't use sights or other aids even if they had been available back then as that wouldn't befit a true archer . I have to wonder what an acomplished 13th century combat archer would call a compound shooter with all those gadgets attached to his bow to help him shoot . My guess is that it wouldn't be "fellow archer" .

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

HUNTERS WORKING TOGETHER


The only thing that should be important to each and every hunter in North America is doing whatever he or she can do to bring ALL hunters together in one unified force. We cannot do that by jumping on our brothers because they like to bait deer, or they like to run bears with hounds or any other of the stupid things that hunters beat up other hunters for. In the last decade (1991-2001) the number of hunters DECREASED by more than 1.7 million in the U.S.A. alone and like me, most of the remaining ones are older than dirt. And as the hammering of one another goes on, the animal rights whacko's slice away more of our support and heritage with each passing month
Instead of expending energy kicking fellow hunters around, we should be working with schools, youth groups and woman organizations to recruit new and young hunters from where ever we can. This is no joke! I want my grandchildren and great grandchildren to be able to experience the thrill and satisfaction of bringing wild game to the family table. I truly feel sorry for hunters that get so caught up in their own personal agendas for fear that they might be cheated out of game that they fail to see what is really important to our hunting heritage and future. Lord knows that there is plenty of game to go around! Lets get more people involved to share in the bounty and safeguard our hunting tradition.

As we travel around the continent, we occasionally run in to the contrary of mind and spirit, but for the most part, the hunters we meet are able to fathom our predicament and realize that we have a serious task before us. They get it! We can only pity those that do not and stand up to them for what is right. Believe me, along the way you are going to get ripped into, but one should always consider the source and remain true to your course. Those that persecute will eventually change (remember the compound issue) or they will alienate themselves from the mainstream of the sport and end up being miserable with those few others like themselves. We believe that anything that grows our sport is a good thing. Good for the participants, good for the game and good for the people who make their living from hunting and fishing.

Furture president of North America
 

I would like to nominate DKH for president of North America!

I all seriousness you are so correct Daniel. If only more sportsmen would think like that. I say sportsmen because organizations like Peta are going after fishing at this moment. Sooner or later we are all screwed if we don't start educating others and donating money to our organizations that fight for our rights (all outdoor sports). They are even after lead weights in fishing here in Canada! What the hell is next. When are we going to say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more"? When it's too late?

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Whew! Great response guys! Thanks a lot.

Wereally do need to reach out to fellow hunters and unite. I just hope and pray that the anti xbow crowd would widen their perspective and see our viewpoint.

Keep the ideas flowing. Maybe this thread can start educating people about our cause.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

DNK, When I said act like an Indian In my mind the original americans were and are the only true hard core archers. And by this I mean you have to be at one with nature to be sucessful like they were with their tools. Me, I don't want to practice every day to keep my skills up. I enjoy practicing, but not all the time. I just love going out and sitting in the woods. I pass on deer all the time because my type of hunting is enjoying nature and being alone in the woods, Not the challenge of the equipment. If when I said Indian I offended anyone I apologize for that I was just trying to say that in my mind their old method would be the most work to be sucessful.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Yes DJH would have my vote. It is what I have been saying, doesnt matter whether you hunt with a rifle, or bow, or MZL or crossbow of blow gun, as HUNTERS we need to stand side by side against the antis for all HUNTERS to enjoy hunting they way they prefer. THe antis are winning here, and if they can keep a wedge driven between the bow and Crossbow, then they might eventually be able to drive one between the rifle and the MZL or rifle against traditional archery...... cant people see that this argument is hurting the sport?

I mean yes I am over here fighting for freedom and our Liberties and the right to do as we want...... but we are only hurting each other! [&:]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

JLMoore1956

Crossbows are illegal in NY. There is 1 exception. If you aredisabled, to the point that you are unable to wiggle your finger enough to pull a trigger, you may use a crossbow modified with a breath tube. Hows that for a restriction?

I have the Modified Archer Permit, but can't use a crossbow. Tried the DrawLoc, but it isn't a good match for my disability. No archery hunting for me, until the law changes.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Hotburn76, I guess I did not do a good job of saying that I wasn't baiting you or trying to give you a hard time.... any how I just have never heard that expression before and did not understand what you were saying. You did not offend me at all. I can't see anyone insulted, I saw that it wasn't an insult so I wouldn't worry about it. I wish I could hunt and live in the woods like the North American Natives did in the old days before we screwed up their lives. Wouldn't have to go to the office, no taxes, hunt and fish any time (sometimes just to get away from the family), fart when ever ya want, stable gas prices, no junk mail.... wonder if they had beer??????

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Now that Pope and Young has caved in to demand from the high tech compound crowd on their letoff rule, there is nothing standing in the way of crossbows. P&Y has no credibility now on the issue. PBS has never had any credibility. IMO, today's compounds have performance and ease of use practically identical to crossbows - if not surpassing them.

How can someone shooting a 99% letoff compound with a mechanical release have anything negative to say about a crossbow that isn't also applicable to his stuff?

In the days when compounds were mostly shot with fingers, letoffs were no greater than 65% and with arrow speeds well under 250 fps, I think there were enough differences to justify keeping crossbows segregated out of bow seasons. That is no longer the case.

Being first and foremost a traditional bowhunter, I'm no more in favor of allowing crossbows in bow season than I ever was. It's just that I feel if we have to accept the compound in it's current state, then there is no reason to keep crossbows at bay any longer.

And, frankly, if I'm shooting anything but a recurve, longbow or selfbow, I'd just rather be shooting a crossbow than a high tech compound with all the gadgetry.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

[blockquote]Many have stated that bowhunters have fought long and hard to get the long seasons they now enjoy. The also claim that those unwilling to put the time and effort in required to shoot a real bow don’t belong in the woods. Those folks have it all wrong! [/blockquote]
[blockquote]Most of those boys picking up the crossbow were hunting while a lot of the screamers were still in diapers. They helped obtain those seasons, but are now unable to hunt them due to aging bodies that can no longer draw back a vertical bow. To turn your back on those who have been soldiers for the cause is not only selfish, it’s irresponsible. The longer bow seasons have been set up to help the state game management agencies control the deer herd. But hunting for big bucks, has seemed to slow that process as well. There is plenty of room for more hunters out there![/blockquote]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

DJH: agree with you all the way, I was around in 1970s with the controversay kicked off, and you are right these are the ones who fought and now the sometimes, i say sometimes righteous bowhunters are hurting us more then helping...... as I said PETA is laughing about it I am sure! [&:]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

And the reverse argument to that, JL, is that crossbow hunters are hurting us by trying to force their way into a place they KNOW they're not wanted. Fingers pointing both ways and barking at each other like two warring packs of dogs, THAT'S what's hurting us!

It's the childish remarks being aimed at bowhunters by the crossbow contingent - words like 'selfish, self-righteous' - that strengthen the resolve of those fighting you. Quit the foolish name calling. You'll make much more ground just focusing on the similarities between crossbows and compounds.

Some stranger comes to your door, cussing and raising hell withyou becauseyou won't lethim into your house. Are you going to invitehim in or grabyour gun? The same person comes along. He introduces himself and is polite and friendly. Are you going to grab the gun or invite him in?Same deal here. Bow season is OUR house. You want in? Then be nice, make yourself acquainted and be friendly. Unfortunately, the opportunity to make that first impression is long past. It started off with the cuss fight and it hasn't let up since.

It's the crossbow contingent that started the war. It's up to you guys to make peace. What have you been doing in those states where the crossbow has recently been accepted? You've been loudly proclaiming victory over bowhunters. Very ungracious victors, the whole lot of you. Now you're in a season where a great many of the guys in the woods would just as soon shoot you as the deer. Not very smart. Not a very good way to prep the bowhunters next state on the list. You're perpetuating the anger and strengthening your opposition.

Argue your case intelligently and logically with facts, not emotion. Emotions are dividing. Facts are simply facts. Instead of getting into a bare knuckles brawl with someone, wouldn't you rather have him in a position where all he can do issay, "Dang. Never thought of it that way." The ones who respond onlywith emotion... disregard them. They are limited intellectually and therefore are no concern. (Which is another reason to keep emotion out of your argument. See?)

You can point out the relative ancientry of crossbows when compared to compounds. Which would be a better fit into what is supposed to be a primitive season - a weapon who has been with mankind since well before Christianity? Or a mechanical contrivance that has only been around for less than 40 years? (Of course, you'll have to hold back on the fact that most crossbows now are compound crossbows. Shhhh! ;))

I've removed myself from the battle. All I can do is give you my insight as a long time opponent of crossbows. It's up to you guys how you use it. You can make things easier and the future brighter, or you can maintain the battlefield tactics and wind up sharing the woods with enemies, leavingemotional wounds that maybe, in another generation or two,will have healed over.

I think the crossbow will soon be fully acceptedmost everywhere, regardless. It's simply a matter of whether it will be a mostly friendly transition or not that will tell you what kind of future you'll have.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

For one, never hunted with a crossbow...... what offended me is telling me, like in New York I have to disagree with crossbows if I want to be a member of the New York bowhunters. I am over here in IRaq and have defended our freedoms too many times to see someone eliminated for shooting a crossbow. I have hunted with a bow since the 70s and Arthur P, many compound users did the same thing in the early 70s, been there and saw it! And you are right, the crossbow users shouldnt be hollering at the bow users...... it works both ways. All I am saying is the continued argument rather then sitting down and talking is what is hurting us..... the in-fighting.[:@]

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

I've hunted with a bow since the 50's, so I've seen a little more of it than you have.

All the bowhunting organizations have an anti-crossbow plank in their constitutions; if not specific, it's at leastimplied. They either started out with such a policy or instituted one after the battle was joined. Even our local club had an anti-crossbow rule. I got that rule changed so one of the local SCA kingdoms could have an archerytournament at our range.

I had to get the officers to shoot my crossbow. Invariably, after shooting it a few times, their response was "Who would want to hunt with a piece of s*#t like that?!" :D

Granted, my Barnett Wildcat ain't in the same league as an Excalibur Exomag, but it's still a crossbow. They expected a whole lot more than what they actually got. I think they really came away somewhat disappointed by the experience. But they had no problem with changing our anti-crossbow policy afterwards.

Clubs change from the inside out. So, join the club. Work to change the rules you don't like. That's howdemocracy works and clubs are a democracy. Surely you haven't fought to defend something you won't participate in?

Arguments change from the inside out too. A lot of the time two side have been going at it and one side suddenly realizes... "Hey! They're right!" But the argument has been going on hot and heavy for so long that they feel foolish admitting they've been wrong. Given half a chance to save face and not look foolish, they finally agree.

I'm not saying the bow side has been wrong forever. I'm saying through advances in compound technology that matters have changed. Most have not yet recognized that fact, or are unwilling to admit it because it will make them look foolish for continuing the argument. Given half a chance to save face....

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Arthur P, guess you are right, might be looking at it wrong! :)

Guess I see there is room for everyone, and it is not going to go away. And you might be right, we need what it would take to save face and get the groups to set down and agree on a way to proceed. THink there was a state just passed a law for a couple days. Maybe we need to look at ways to start small and move forward........ some ask where we gonna fit it in. I say where there is a will there is a way........ meaning we all cooperate and move forward!

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

You must have missed the part in the game laws where it says that only bows are legal weapons for archery seasonand crossbows were expressly forbidden. That makes it OUR house.It was even that way in Ohio until the mid-70's. Maybe you should review the history of how crossbows got accepted into Ohio's archery season.

As for the rest of your post, it's all a bunch of emotionalism and hard feelings. Exactly what name calling -from both sides- accomplishes. I'm saying cut it out because it has no part in the true issue.

The issue USED to be that crossbows would make killing deer too easy, and hunter success ratios would be too high when compared to conventional bows. The fear was that liberal bow seasons would be cut back. That is now a moot point, because of the advances in compound technology over the past decade. Hunter success ratios have climbed exponentially since the compound came on the market.

The Army Ammunition Depot at McAlester, OK has a herd management bowhunton their propertyevery year. When they allowed compounds, hunter success numbers were up in the 35% range and that was too high for their management needs. They could reduce the number of hunters they allowed. They could shorten the length of the hunt. But that was counter to their secondary goal of offering maximum usage for the greatest number of hunters. So, they changed it to traditional only and the success rates dropped back to around 15%. Right on target for what they wanted to accomplish. Interesting side note... wound/loss ratios also dropped dramatically.

Now, looking at Ohio's archery season hunter success ratios, including crosbows, the success ratio is right at 35%. Same as at McAlester where crossbows were not allowed. So, the success ratios with modern compounds is exactly the same as that for the crossbow.

Now, armed with those facts, next timea compound shootercalls you a cheater, you have some good information to counter with. You can prove you are cheating no more than he is.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

I didn't intendthis thread to become a debate, but thanks for the great ideas and insights that you guys gave.:)

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Those aren't facts.

Sounds great .... until someone points out that in GA the trads harvest rate was actually higher than the compounds and crossbows, and all of them had success rate ~50%.

No, you can't compare statistics willy-nilly across state lines to prove your point. Shame on you.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

I am sure glad that in AR we cut all kinds of discrimination especally against the kids ,old people and disabled; ifyou look at the people out in the field that use xbows around 50 percent fall into these catagories. Nobody has to use one and most don't I did not myself till I got over 65 and the aruthoritis in my shoulders made it necessary but you won't ever find me trying to get a disability lic. nowhere because of natural aging either.Lee

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

I have to say that I have shot compounds for many years and quite accurately I might add. When the season comes by I still pack the xbow most of the time. The reason is that as a hunter using all conventional tools, I have found that I would rather use a tool that is more efficient when the situation arises. What does that mean? Well!!!! If I am hunting white tail during our archery season and I can use an xbow, I almost always grab my xbow. Why? Well....I know that I can out shoot any compound bow hunter with my Excalibur. Now if I were to choose my one of my compounds over my xbow it is because I know that the circumstances will render my xbow just as efficient that anyone's compound! I use my xbow more often when the weather gets cold because I shoot an xbow more accurately with heavy clothing just like everyone else. What does all this mean? What it means is that I will shelve my pride in my compound bow shooting and put my quarry in correct perspective. In english this means that I choose the xbow over the compound to ensure a cleaner kill. In the end I take exception to any one denouncing myself for using an xbow because I use this wonderfull tool not because it is easier to use but because I know that under certain conditions I will have a higher possibility of a cleaner kill. Those who disagree certainly have not ever shot an xbow or they put their personal pride ahead of their quarry. Who in their right mind would choose a tool of lesser leathality and take a risk of making an animal suffer longer than necessary? Only one! That person would be one over come with pride with less concern for their quarry than me and all other xbow shooters. Sure xbow shooters can pick up a stick bow that cannot shoot with the same accuracy or power but they do not because they know they can humanely hunt their game with an xbow. We as xbow hunters should hunt knowing that we have the ability to hunt more wisely and try to educate those who arrived to the field on higher horses. If we can educate then we have done a favour to the animals that we have such great respect for. I do not feel that I am better than any hunter using any other tool but I do get peeved when anyone suggests that a crossbow is anything but a better hunting tool.
I think I am calming down now....grrrrrr. Just had to vent.

JLmoore1956. Be safe and get back in one piece. I am a Canadian that supports your troops. My thoughts are with you guys all the time.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

Isn't there also alot of tension in this area over record book scores regarding animals taken with archery tackle? Longbows being more difficult to master and therefore animals taken with an easier and more efficient tool don't count? i still don't understand why there isn't simply another section added to the record book. This really has me puzzled when you bring conventional firearms into the equation.

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

I certainly am with you marlinchester. Does it not logically follow that a tool that is more difficult to master would also be easier to fail with? So why put an emphasis as well as importance on the tools that cause more failures (aka woundings)? If the animal activists ever get qued in on the fact that organizations like Young and Pope and their followers have a trail of painfull woundings the people that feel apart from every one else may be on their own. That folks would put yet another nail in our coffins! I would like to know how many more arrows there are in animals running around or dead in the woods compared to crossbow bolts?

RE: Future of the Crossbow
 

DNK, I've heard that same uneducated drivel from people who want to outlaw archery hunting altogether. [>:]

A crossbow is no more lethal than the person behind it. Ifthe guy with a crossbow isamoronic goon who routinely takes shots beyond his known effective range, then he is not nearly as lethal as the guy who shoots a homemade selfbow, but knows his limits and hunts within them. Even if those limits are only 10 yards!

Is it easier to fail with a selfbow than with a crossbow? If you define 'failure' as eating tag stew at the end of the season, then hell yes. But if you define it asfailing to make a clean kill when he does take a shot, it's no more likely to failthan with a compound or crossbow. Or handgun. Or muzzleloader. Or shotgun. Or rifle.

Strange, isn't it? How people who don't want others ignorantly blasting them for their choice of weapon have absolutely no qualms about doingthe exact same thingto others.:eek:

thesource, as for you pointing out the traditional harvest in GA was higher than both compound and crossbow, you need to show reliable data. Same on you for not sourcing such a claim!

Just saying it doesn't make it true. In fact, it sounds like fallacious propaganda. (Especially in light of DNK's outburst about how traditionalequipment is so 'easy to fail' with :eek:).If it's true, then crossbow and compound hunters in GA must be horribly bad hunters and every traditional hunter there must be a world champion. LOL

Come to think of it, Byron Ferguson lives and hunts in GA, and he is certainly no slouch with his longbow. Maybe he's singlehandedly skewing the harvest data? [8D]

When I looked at the archeryharvest data on GDNA's website, there was no breakdown between traditional, compound and crossbow. It was all lumped together with an overallhunter success rate of 50%.

If you want sources for my numbers above, you can get a copy of the McAlister study from Oklahoma State University. Ohio's harvest numbers are posted on the ODNR website.

Now I am done venting.