"MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Several members have questioned why I am against &quot;managing&quot; the wild animal we hunt. I understand the principle behind it- a desire to harvest a record Buck- but my fear all along was that it would deminish the older records and that it would begin to domesticate our wild deer. The ? is where do you draw the line. Do you hand feed them or enclose them in and eventually treat them like domesticated cattle- Well. it has happened. I watched a program on the outdoor channel today that sickened me and sortof made me embarrased to have the same title as these people (Hunter). The show (I can't remember his name- but it was Hunting and outdoors with somebody) They were &quot;HUNTING<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>&quot; from a ranch named Mustang-creek in Texas. It started out as your typical management hunting show- hailing the ability of certain engenierd feed to grow massive racks and then sitting over a trough and sitting their picking and choosing whick Trophy they would kill. But then my fears came to fruition- they began to explain and even praise the process that this land was managed with. It's a &quot;cutting edge&quot; technology called AI- artificial insemination. That's right- these does are penned up- captured- corralled- Master deer seaman is the inserted into the does uterous. Then the fawns are penned and bottle fed- but don't worry (and I quote) &quot;...bottle fed deer return to complete wild after three months of being released...&quot;<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> This idiot even had the nerve to state that when horses and cattle were first domesticated their where naysayers too, so he expected disagreement among his fellow hunters at first. He called this &quot;management come full circle&quot; and that we agree on. With more and more people measuring the succsess of their hunt by the size of the antlers- this is the direction we are heading. Why plant special crops for the sole purpose of growing huge bucks, why focuse only on the size of the antler- what has happened to the challenge and the joy being the HUNT!!! and not the shot- or the mount- or the craftiness of our managing technices????? What is becoming of our Sport?????

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Doc, I understand your concerns. However, no deer that is from an enclosure, no matter how large of an enclosure, is allowed to be entered into any currently established record book. ie:Boone & Crocket, Pope-Young, or Buckmasters.
I imagine people have already tried to enter into these books with deer killed inside a fence, and maybe have gotten away with it, but it is not legal to do so.
If the deer on this particular ranch are being released back into the wild, then the Texas wildlife people should step in and put an immediate stop to it!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Doc. I agree with you 100% living it texas I have seen it all its big money.I lost my lease because of it.The only good thing about this type of ranch is the big holes that they get in there high fence.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>Its not hunting its shoting someones pet,unless they get out into the wild and they have to make it on there own.Good luck with your season.

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Big Country what is the problem with them being released into the wild? Don't they become wild deer if hey have to find there own food?Isn't that what they do when they stock fish in ponds? Kinda like the elk in kentucky.

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

they aint goin out and hunting them elk,they are re-establishing a wild population

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

I wouldn't doubt it was Hunting and Outdoor Adventures with Kieth Warren....his show is as pathetic as they come.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

The elk in Ky are hunted but by only a lottery of 10 or so people.The difference is there isn't a fence involved.There are elk in a fence at Land Between the Lakes but they are not hunted.


I don't have a problem with management because what makes bigger racks also makes healthier deer.I don't like the artificial insimination because you are screwing with nature.This is 1 thing that I agree with the books,(1 of few things).Don't allow the fenced deer into the books or artificialy grown deer.

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Why not just clone the big bucks? They've done it with sheep.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

I agree with Doc. There is a big difference between wildlife management and &quot;deer farming&quot;. This is something that shouldn't be done with wild animals.

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

doc,
i agree with you on this. i like to kill a big buck as good as anybody,but this is stupid. i want to enjoy the hunt not so much the kill. i could do that with my daddys cows. im glad they haven't started doing this i georgia.

tracey moore

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Texastracker, to the best of my knowledge(which is often incomplete<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) the elk in kentucky were wild animals that were trapped and then transplanted. They were not bottle fed as babies.

To answer your question as to whether the deer become wild after being released into the wild, I only have one case of first hand knowledge on this subject.

A buddy of mine owns a rather large farm in westmoreland Co., PA. Anyway, 4 1/2 years ago he found a roadkilled doe by his driveway, with a pair of newborn fawns standing beside her. These fawns were probably less than 24 hours old.
He took the fawns to his barn, they allowed him to pick them up. He and his wife bottle fed them for days. He contacted the game commision about keeping them, and was told he would have to apply for a permit, build a pen to their specs, and what all else I don`t remember. So, my buddy just kept his barn doors wide open so they were free to go whenever they wished. By the time they were 3 monthes old, they were rarely ever around the barn. By 6 monthes of age they never went back into the barn, they lived in the woods, but would come into the yard to get attention every day. When they were one year old, the doe, there was one buck and one doe fawn, the doe went into the barn and promptly dropped her first fawn. Now she nursed her own fawn, and even though that fawn was born in the barn, and watched her mother get petted by humans everyday, she would not let anyone close to her.
Almost 4 1/2 years now since the day my buddy brought those little fawns home and bottle fed them, and I can still see them in the woods while hunting, walk up and pet the doe. The buck grew a big 10 point rack in his 3rd year, and was promptly shot on another farm.
So, my only firsthand knowledge of bottle feeding deer tells me that once a pet, always a pet.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Friends,
I live in a remote area of Southwest Virginia less than 1 mile from the Ky. state line.
There are more elk on this side than on that side and rest easy they ARE wild.

Va. has opened season on elk and I have hunted whitetail for years and it is much harder to get an elk into bow range.

The anamals that were released may or may not have been from game farms. I don't know. There offspring surely were not.They were born here on this mountain and the only fence here is around my front yard.

As for breeding &quot;super deer&quot; I'm with Rob on this one. This sounds like a Keith Warren show. Any fishing trip he takes is at one of the &quot;pay to play&quot; lakes in Mexico so why would a hunting trip be any different?

I would love to see him on some National Forest land with tree rat hunters everywhere and a man every 100 yards or so.

Soon deer will be regesterd like dogs are with the AKC if this keeps up.

Where is the sport to a hunt if you can sit in a lodge and pick out your &quot;trophy&quot; from a catalog? Is this selective breeding natural?

When is it to much? I think we are well past that point now.

Sorry boys I guess this is sort of a sore spot for me.I had to vent:)

SF

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

That's pretty sad. Do they believe penning the does and artificial insemenating them is something that won't happen in the wild? It was my understanding that the dominate deer had breeding rights; thus the superior deer would be the ones breeding those same does. I use to think about getting some sheep and come slaughter time I'd take them out with a bow. I thought about it some more and come to the conclusion that it'd be unethical-for me anyways-because there would be no fair chase. Domestic sheep wouldn't fear me or run away, they'd just stand there and be shot. It's nice to know they'd be normal after three months, but until they return to complete wild wouldn't they just be coyote/wolf bait? Three months in the wild seems like slim chances for survival when you don't have the instincts to take care of yourself. Which comes to another point, if the does are penned up they'll eventually become domesticated. It's my understanding that the lack of survival instincts would be passed to the fawns; making them less likely to become survival conscious. I could be wrong on that part, I'm not impressively knowledgable on such things, but the deer still wouldn't be &quot;completely&quot; wild. I think management is a good idea, where it's applicable, but by natural means. Deer aren't robots or experiments, and the woods isn't a science lab. It's my uneducated opinion that harvesting does, especially in urban areas, is the best thing to do for this. Lower the populations so deer aren't coming out of the seems so to say, while letting the little ones grow. I wouldn't expect greenhorns, like myself, to be that strict about it, but I feel that after a few deer we should start setting better standards for ourselves and start thinking about it. I also realize that some hunters are in situations were it'd be difficult for them to pass on smaller deer, waiting for a larger deer that may not even be there, or they may not have the time for. That's my opinion on it, I'm not trying to talk down on anyone who does otherwise, so I hope I don't make anyone mad.

God bless,
Brandan

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

There are extremes in most situations. Breeding deer in pens and releasing them in the wild is definitely towards one extreme end and unacceptable for many if not most hunters. On the other extreme, we have hunters who shoot the first deer they see, with no concern for the condition of the herd. I'm hoping most hunters don't fall into this category.

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It was my understanding that the dominate deer had breeding rights; thus the superior deer would be the ones breeding those same does. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

It would be nice if such a thing happened, but around here, it's generally the first 1.5 yr buck that wanders by.

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Big Country thanks for the replay, I agree with the fact that it isn't a hunt if they are pened in and have been raised that way, but if they get out and live in the wild I won't have a problem taking one with my bow.

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

I saw the show....it was keith warren..what a sorry excuse for a hunter. I’m glad to see that the show bothered others besides myself. Worst part is that the ranch is about 30 minutes from my house. All the land it TX is like that. As long as you have the $$$$$ you can hunt. I stick to public land because I refuse to pay someone to hunt wildlife that isn’t theirs to begin with. I grew up in the Northwest where you just go out and hunt..wehrever you want , so this hunting lease thing is new to me, I don’t like it!

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

doc...ranches like you mentioned make me sick and the nimrods that hunt them make me even sicker. HOWEVER...this is NOT what QDM (Quality Deer Management) is about! So please do not mistake the two.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Doc,

Howdy! I haven't talked to you in awhile. I spend nearly all of my time on the traditional forum. But this thread caught my eye, especially when I saw that you started it. Good to talk to you again!

As for the type of show discussed. Be careful what videos you purchase. They, too, hunt deer behing fences, e.g., Texas ranches, Sanctuary in Michigan, etc. They are just smart enough to talk about the &quot;unique management techniques being used.&quot;

Thaere are some Game Management Techniques used I don't have a problem with. For example, 8 pt or better in given zones, does only in others, or whatever is required to achieve a good herd balance.

I don't care for most of the TV hunting shows, other than Wayne Carlton's Elk Country Journal, and the horde of videos that are on the market.

Bill



Praise the Lord, He is worthy

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

ttt

Praise the Lord, He is worthy

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

Good to hear from you Lamb- I was wondering where you've been!!!!!
I have just about given up on all hunting shows period- maybe I can find that Elk country Journal and give it a try.
Thanks
Chris

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
doc...ranches like you mentioned make me sick and the nimrods that hunt them make me even sicker. HOWEVER...this is NOT what QDM (Quality Deer Management) is about! So please do not mistake the two.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

wolfen my feeling on this exactly. We do concur on somethings! LOL

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

That is really sad. Someone had mentioned cloning which is interesting because I just read an article on that very topic recently in one of my magazines. It was not advocating it, but instead saying how with the &quot;pay to play&quot; mentality is going with hunting that it is an unfortunate possibility in the future. Imagine, you have the $$$ and say, &quot;I want the Milo Hansen buck.&quot; Bingo, an embryo is made and after 5 years of good feed and care you go out and get the buck of your dreams. I sure hope this isn't the road hunting is heading toward, but if there is money to be made you can be sure someone will try it.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: "MANAGEMENT" my fears have come true
 

...and the fact that they WILL eventually try to sell it isn't half as sad as the fact that some rich idiot will pay them for it.

Money may or may not be the root of all evil, but it IS pure murder on common sense.