A Tribute To The American Indian
#21
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
Double Creek, if you want an eye opener, do a little research on Andrew Jackson, the Act of Removal, the Cherokee Constitution, United States Supreme Court (ref: Worcester v Georgia, 1832) and how a sizeable chunk of the State of Georgia legally belonged to the Cherokee Nation. You'll begin to understand why having Andrew Jackson's picture on the $20 bill is a continuing insult to the Cherokee people. You might understand why Indians couldn't trust anything the whites said, because whites proved they wouldn't even abide by their own laws in dealing with Indians, and there was no justice for them in the American judicial system.
#22
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
I often think about the Native Americans and how they were murdered and run from their lands. The majority of the time it's when I'm thinking about conservation. The Native Americans were conservationist to the highest meaning of the words. They lived off the land and were one with it.
The plight of the Native Americans is just another dark chapter in The United States of America's history.
The plight of the Native Americans is just another dark chapter in The United States of America's history.
Conservationist? Indians routinely burned prairies and forest and slaughtered fleeing animals, many which were not used. They ran bison off of cliffs killing thousands, taking what they could, and left the rest to rot in the hot miday sun. Murdered and run from their lands? I suppose if we didn't take over the west, they would still be hunting buffalo and running around in lion cloths at one with nature, yeah right, they and the rest of the world would be speaking German. They are extremely fortunate that we conquered them instead of somebody else. Perhaps no other group of people in the world have been given so much, and done so little with it. If your so distressed about our "theft" of lands, why don't you go find an indian and give him your property and ease your mind? Or, take a trip out here to Montana and meet the indian people and visit their reservations, that might change your prospective. Before you start spouting off about things you know nothing about, maybe you should study up on the subject
If I was an American Indian I would still be on the warpath.
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
Double Creek, if you want an eye opener, do a little research on Andrew Jackson, the Act of Removal, the Cherokee Constitution, United States Supreme Court (ref: Worcester v Georgia, 1832) and how a sizeable chunk of the State of Georgia legally belonged to the Cherokee Nation. You'll begin to understand why having Andrew Jackson's picture on the $20 bill is a continuing insult to the Cherokee people. You might understand why Indians couldn't trust anything the whites said, because whites proved they wouldn't even abide by their own laws in dealing with Indians, and there was no justice for them in the American judicial system.
How about Little Big Horn? The Federal gov't asked to purchase the black hills from the sioux. When they were told that "no earth that man walks upon should be sold" the gov't ordered the sioux and any other remaing nations to the reservation imediately and that they (our gov't) were taking the land , hence Custers last stand.
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dunkirk MD USA
Posts: 283
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
[quote]ORIGINAL: BOWFANATIC
[quote]Conservationist? Indians routinely burned prairies and forest and slaughtered fleeing animals, many which were not used. They ran bison off of cliffs killing thousands, taking what they could, and left the rest to rot in the hot miday sun
i agree that the whiteman wasted animals on an unprecentanted scale but muley69 is correct that the indians also wasted. there are buffalo jumps all over montana, this was the preferred method of hunting. they chased them on horseback and burnt the grass to guide them over the cliffs.
Question: how many indians does it take to eat 100 bison before they spoil on a hot summer day?
in fact around the land that my family homesteaded there are several buff jumps that the indians must have ran thousands of bison off of because you can still go out with a shovel and dig up bones and skulls today. further proving they didn't even use the parts of the buffalo that didn't spoil.
[quote]Conservationist? Indians routinely burned prairies and forest and slaughtered fleeing animals, many which were not used. They ran bison off of cliffs killing thousands, taking what they could, and left the rest to rot in the hot miday sun
Not being of Native American descent from your country (prarie indians) I can only go by what I've read in books about their culture , as I assume your basing your opinions on (by book) , I'd be very interested in reading the books which describe how they "routinely burned praries and forest and slaughtered fleeing animals , which were not used".
Running bison off cliffs (which I have read) was done on rare occasion , but I find it pretty ingenious myself , and I might add that they used everything from the meat , the hides , and the horns , to the hoofs , and the bones. Very unlike the white man who slaughtered thousands upon thousands for the hide and some meat but left most to rot and is the very reason the bison were approaching extinction.
Running bison off cliffs (which I have read) was done on rare occasion , but I find it pretty ingenious myself , and I might add that they used everything from the meat , the hides , and the horns , to the hoofs , and the bones. Very unlike the white man who slaughtered thousands upon thousands for the hide and some meat but left most to rot and is the very reason the bison were approaching extinction.
i agree that the whiteman wasted animals on an unprecentanted scale but muley69 is correct that the indians also wasted. there are buffalo jumps all over montana, this was the preferred method of hunting. they chased them on horseback and burnt the grass to guide them over the cliffs.
Question: how many indians does it take to eat 100 bison before they spoil on a hot summer day?
in fact around the land that my family homesteaded there are several buff jumps that the indians must have ran thousands of bison off of because you can still go out with a shovel and dig up bones and skulls today. further proving they didn't even use the parts of the buffalo that didn't spoil.
#25
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beautiful Western Montana
Posts: 2,308
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
AHHHH! Were to begin? By the time I got back on this thread there has been a ton posted. Some things need to be said. First, do not ever say that I have "hatred" toward anybody. Disgust, yes, hatred no. This is the equivalant to calling me a racist. Make no mistake, if I were a racist, I would tell you folks straight up, thats just my style. I have had whites, hispanics, indians, even asians employed by our company, some were excellent workers, and some were not. So, as far as that is concerned, I have said my piece and will never again address the race statements.
Secondly, enough already with the "ancesester's were indians" crap. Who cares? Does that some how qualify you more than others? The fact is, the overwhelming majority of reservation members are at best 1/4 indian. From my prospective that makes them 3/4 non-indian. So lay off the heritage garbage.
Thirdly, my suggestion to move this to the politics forum was strickly made to maintain the integrity of this forum. As far as me having "my ilk" over there, please let me know who they are, as I have posted in the politics section but a few times.
Also, enough of the "college boy" comments, I assure you all that I am not a boy. Yes, I did go to college, yes I did get a degree. I payed for it with my own blood and sweat, and I am proud of my educational accomplishments. I make no distiction in terms of human value with regaurd to education. I own a construction firm, hardly a "college boy" job. If you think I am lording my education over anyone, think again. Out of over 100 post this is the first time I have mentioned my degree, it is largly unimportant. I'm am sure there are many on this board who have Masters and Doctorates, and none on this board who spell worse than me.
To Katbones: I think we all realize that it was not your intention for the post to head in this direction. Your intentions are noble and we all reconize them as such.
Finally, the crux of my position is two fold. 1. Stop romantising the pre-colombus indian tribes. And there is a discussion of it's own. 2. It is really time to move beyond the "we stole there land" argument.
Nobody has addressed the fact the indians stole each others land. Nobody has addressed the fact that most existing nations stole their land. Nobody has responded to the option of giving their property back to the indians if their hearts are troubled by this. In the words of one poster, indeed, the truth does hurt. The real discussion on this subject should be, is how to do away with reservations all togather, and assimilate tribal members into main stream America. There is no pride, no hope, no morality in the current reservations systems we have now. On an antelope hunt to Wolfpoint , Montana a year ago, I pulled into town at 3:30AM on the Ft. Peck Indian Reservation. I saw kids, yes kids, 10 years old or so with whiskey bottles and beer cans. The tribal police do nothing. The shame of it all is that the indians are mainly exploiting indians, while liberal politicians send the power rez leaders money, slap themselves on the back with a wink and a smile, and return to their escalades feeling all fuzzy inside.
To BOWFANTIC: If your seriously concerned with indian issues, perhaps your time would be better spent trying to make a difference on the deplorable state on the American indian today, as opposed to pointing fingers and blaming things on the past. Only through independance from government programs can the indians once again feel the pride they enjoyed ages ago. Freedom is all encompassing, you must have freedom from dependancy to fully realize the value of life, and without that realization, your life is without meaning. A life without meaning leads to a deplorable state, so is the case with todays indian. Last year, a 14 year old indian on the flathead reservation was killed in a trailer fire because he was to drunk to wake up. If that werent enough, his ten year old brother and a 12 year old were found dead in a field 6 months later. The cause? Hypothermia, with a blood alcohol content 3x the legal driving limit. Don't you think we can do better than that? I assure you, when we read this in the papers out here, nobody is happy, no matter what the skin color.
Secondly, enough already with the "ancesester's were indians" crap. Who cares? Does that some how qualify you more than others? The fact is, the overwhelming majority of reservation members are at best 1/4 indian. From my prospective that makes them 3/4 non-indian. So lay off the heritage garbage.
Thirdly, my suggestion to move this to the politics forum was strickly made to maintain the integrity of this forum. As far as me having "my ilk" over there, please let me know who they are, as I have posted in the politics section but a few times.
Also, enough of the "college boy" comments, I assure you all that I am not a boy. Yes, I did go to college, yes I did get a degree. I payed for it with my own blood and sweat, and I am proud of my educational accomplishments. I make no distiction in terms of human value with regaurd to education. I own a construction firm, hardly a "college boy" job. If you think I am lording my education over anyone, think again. Out of over 100 post this is the first time I have mentioned my degree, it is largly unimportant. I'm am sure there are many on this board who have Masters and Doctorates, and none on this board who spell worse than me.
To Katbones: I think we all realize that it was not your intention for the post to head in this direction. Your intentions are noble and we all reconize them as such.
Finally, the crux of my position is two fold. 1. Stop romantising the pre-colombus indian tribes. And there is a discussion of it's own. 2. It is really time to move beyond the "we stole there land" argument.
Nobody has addressed the fact the indians stole each others land. Nobody has addressed the fact that most existing nations stole their land. Nobody has responded to the option of giving their property back to the indians if their hearts are troubled by this. In the words of one poster, indeed, the truth does hurt. The real discussion on this subject should be, is how to do away with reservations all togather, and assimilate tribal members into main stream America. There is no pride, no hope, no morality in the current reservations systems we have now. On an antelope hunt to Wolfpoint , Montana a year ago, I pulled into town at 3:30AM on the Ft. Peck Indian Reservation. I saw kids, yes kids, 10 years old or so with whiskey bottles and beer cans. The tribal police do nothing. The shame of it all is that the indians are mainly exploiting indians, while liberal politicians send the power rez leaders money, slap themselves on the back with a wink and a smile, and return to their escalades feeling all fuzzy inside.
To BOWFANTIC: If your seriously concerned with indian issues, perhaps your time would be better spent trying to make a difference on the deplorable state on the American indian today, as opposed to pointing fingers and blaming things on the past. Only through independance from government programs can the indians once again feel the pride they enjoyed ages ago. Freedom is all encompassing, you must have freedom from dependancy to fully realize the value of life, and without that realization, your life is without meaning. A life without meaning leads to a deplorable state, so is the case with todays indian. Last year, a 14 year old indian on the flathead reservation was killed in a trailer fire because he was to drunk to wake up. If that werent enough, his ten year old brother and a 12 year old were found dead in a field 6 months later. The cause? Hypothermia, with a blood alcohol content 3x the legal driving limit. Don't you think we can do better than that? I assure you, when we read this in the papers out here, nobody is happy, no matter what the skin color.
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
muley69
Your last post was much better than your first two! Unfortunately as sad as it is , through my eyes anyway , most of what you said is true. But I look at the intentions of the original posters thread , and by your response I seen absolutely no respect for the original indians the poster was speaking of. You came in with both barrels blazing as if someone had touched a nerve. What kind of assumptions would you expect some to make? If you choose not to give any "tribute to the american indian" thats fine by me. But dont assume that all american indians lived the same as the ones you read about (I'm assuming the plains indians) , because their cultures differ like different countries of the world.
I think you've mistaken my purpose for even replying to this thread. I'm not using the past as an excuse for the problems of todays American Indian. Unfortunately alot of folks base their opinions of the original Indians by what they see of todays American Indian.
Your last post was much better than your first two! Unfortunately as sad as it is , through my eyes anyway , most of what you said is true. But I look at the intentions of the original posters thread , and by your response I seen absolutely no respect for the original indians the poster was speaking of. You came in with both barrels blazing as if someone had touched a nerve. What kind of assumptions would you expect some to make? If you choose not to give any "tribute to the american indian" thats fine by me. But dont assume that all american indians lived the same as the ones you read about (I'm assuming the plains indians) , because their cultures differ like different countries of the world.
To BOWFANTIC: If your seriously concerned with indian issues, perhaps your time would be better spent trying to make a difference on the deplorable state on the American indian today, as opposed to pointing fingers and blaming things on the past.
#27
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beautiful Western Montana
Posts: 2,308
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
ORIGINAL: BOWFANATIC
muley69
Your last post was much better than your first two! Unfortunately as sad as it is , through my eyes anyway , most of what you said is true. But I look at the intentions of the original posters thread , and by your response I seen absolutely no respect for the original indians the poster was speaking of. You came in with both barrels blazing as if someone had touched a nerve. What kind of assumptions would you expect some to make? If you choose not to give any "tribute to the american indian" thats fine by me. But dont assume that all american indians lived the same as the ones you read about (I'm assuming the plains indians) , because their cultures differ like different countries of the world.
muley69
Your last post was much better than your first two! Unfortunately as sad as it is , through my eyes anyway , most of what you said is true. But I look at the intentions of the original posters thread , and by your response I seen absolutely no respect for the original indians the poster was speaking of. You came in with both barrels blazing as if someone had touched a nerve. What kind of assumptions would you expect some to make? If you choose not to give any "tribute to the american indian" thats fine by me. But dont assume that all american indians lived the same as the ones you read about (I'm assuming the plains indians) , because their cultures differ like different countries of the world.
Since your so concerned with this issue, why don't you tell me and the rest of the board what your 20 years of study of your heritage has inspired you to do for the current state of affairs with reguard to reserevation life? Also, how do you reconcile your love of hunting with the way indians "hunt" animals today? By that I mean how do you feel about unlimited seasons and tags, the lack of game management on reservations, the slaughter of animals by todays indians, and the unlimited catching of fish by any method. Does todays hunting "ethics" by indians offer any insight to "ethics" of indian hunters 200 years ago? These are all important questions that you need to ask yourself, and enlighten us on the answers you obtain.
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
My response was two the second post, not the original. My barells are still blazing.
Since your so concerned with this issue, why don't you tell me and the rest of the board what your 20 years of study of your heritage has inspired you to do for the current state of affairs with reguard to reserevation life?
Alchoholism is still a big problem but by educating the youth it will get better. The Menominee nation now has game laws which regulate the amount of fish and game taken. Deerhunting by use of spotlight is now illegal. I could go on.
Does todays hunting "ethics" by indians offer any insight to "ethics" of indian hunters 200 years ago? These are all important questions that you need to ask yourself, and enlighten us on the answers you obtain.
#29
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beautiful Western Montana
Posts: 2,308
RE: A Tribute To The American Indian
I don't think you answered the questions bowfanatic, but I think you may not have gotten my entire post since I was editing. BTW, I was born and raised in Illinois, I'm a dye in the wool BEARS fan, don't tell me your a cheesehead....